6 Reasons to Debate Tithing

tithing debate

Many have asked me, “why tithing”? Of all the things to study and debate, why have i chosen tithing? Right off the bat i don’t really know why the topic of tithing fires me up so much, so i found 5 good reasons to get fired up about the tithing debate.

The Love of Money is the Root of all Kinds of Evil

I almost said that money is the root of evil. I think i write that because my mind is always on autopilot. Money is not the root of all kinds of evil. The LOVE of money is. Sure, tithing is a good discipline to rid greed from those who are giving, but what about those who are receiving? There are many out there who are extorting God’s word for the gain of money. Many of you think about televangelists, but that’s just a few on TV. There are many more who desire more and more money to build more and more of their kingdom. Sure, many of them think that God gave them this vision to do this or that. Tithing allows them to build their own dreams and mandate others to pay for it. It’s not necessarily that they love money; they love what money can build.

Tithing in the New Testament Church is Against Scripture

Plain and simple and probably the most important factor that inspires my quest against tithing. I’m not going to spout out any scripture to prove tithing wrong. I’ve done plenty of that already in the past. I believe with all of my heart, that tithing is unbiblical. I do not have an ounce of doubt in my heart or mind about it. I wish i could take what i’ve learned and play it in a movie, or write it in a book. Words and pictures will not do justice to what the Spirit of God has enlightened in my heart.

Tithing Extorts the Poor and Excuses the Rich

I’ve seen churches investigate many members to figure out if they are tithing. If a rich man has been tithing, he is let go and forgot about. But if a poor man is not tithing, and needs help or assistance in paying his bills, the church will first investigate his finances to see if he tithed. If he did, then they will check his spending records and make sure he isn’t spending too much on other things.

The church will try everything to get out of helping this poor man. They will show how he can spend less here and there, and yet still ask him to pay his tithes. They think no one has an excuse not to tithe. They don’t even realize that in scripture it was the poor who received tithes. What about the rich, why pick on them? They paid their tithes, didn’t they? Is a tithe really what God expects of them or is that what WE are expecting from them? Tithing is unjust and unfair.

Jesus Talked about Money More than any other Subject

Obviously nothing has more of a hold on people than money does. If Jesus talked about it so much than it must be crucial. I’m not a financial guru. I flunked accounting in highschool. But i do know that the flow of money going in and out of the church should be a much discussed topic. Disagree? Don’t mark my words, look at Jesus’. He talked about it more than sin, heaven, and hell.

Giving statistics stated that religious organizations brought in 103 billion dollars last year. We have done very little with the 103 billion dollars and we complain that we could do more if only more tithed. It is calculated that we spend 85% of what we take in on ourselves. As a matter of fact only 3% goes towards ministering to the needs of the unsaved. No wonder the world thinks the Church is greedy. It’s not because we are constantly asking for money. it’s because we keep it all to ourselves.

This is besides the point. How the Church receives it’s funds is important. If tithing is in place then people are not free to give to other places that God is leading them to give. Instead people are handcuffed to an organization that spends more and more on themselves.

Tithing Challenges me to Study God’s Word

I will admit, i’m not the encourager or exalter in the group. I like to dissect things with my mind and find solutions to fix the problems. If i see a problem i will speak up. I won’t if everything is going right, i just expect it to. I’m very opinionated, and debates really fuel my fire. I love them. Am i contentious. Sometimes, yes. I try to work on that. I don’t like to pick fights for no reason. But i love a good challenge. There is nothing biblically wrong with wanting to debate God’s word. Your motives must be pure, and you have to be extra careful about how your attitude shows Christ.

Everyone has their methods to help them get fired about God. For some, it’s to look for those who need emotional help. Others, it’s to look for a those who need some teaching. It’s all different for all of us. We are all wired different ways. I’d like to say that the greatest Christian is the one who is most balanced, but more than likely that Christian doesn’t fit in many places. We are different members with different things that drive our motivation. If we are the hands, then doing things with our hands motivates us. If we are the head, then using our thinking or leadership skills motivates us. We are all driven by different things.

So many People are Believing the Wrong Thing

This just hurts to see the number of people who are believing the wrong thing. I’m on a quest to help as many as i can to see the truth in God’s Word. If there was no one to convince, then i probably wouldn’t get into tithing. But it’s a challenge for me, and there are many who need help, and do not know the truth. At one time i didn’t know the truth. You can read about it in my tithing testimony. It is great to hear testimonies from those who have been freed by the teachings of God’s word about tithing. I do not want to diminish the fact of giving sacrificially, but at the same time, people are locked up in chains and need to be freed from the tithing mandate first in order to truly understand sacrificial giving.

Jared Bartholomew is the author of www.tithing.com. There are over 300 articles written on research and reviews about tithing information.

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365 comments on “6 Reasons to Debate Tithing
  1. Gwaine says:

    Sam, jackie and joel,

    I feel your jokes – it’s the usual thing for your desperate lot. BTW, jackie, you still have not addressed the five simple questions I left you – do I then take it that you’re a busy-body at spreading false accusations for absolutely no reason? You know what slander makes you lot, yes? (Proverbs 10:18, NLT).

    • jackie says:

      Dr Gwaine Gump, are you quoting scriptures out of principle or out of hatred ? Why would I hate someone I dont know and someone I dont care for ? You are insignifigant to me as a poodle trying to mate with a german sherperd. Stop trying to be a christian celebrity in your own eyes its pathetic

      • Gwaine says:

        Just get over yourself! You couldn’t resist your hatred to label someone a witch for absolutely no reason. When I asked you to quote me for your false accusations, all you have done is try your snakeoil salemanship! Next time, go about making false accusations you can’t prove and then come back with your pathetic drivels! A false accuser who can’t prove her accusations is using the tradetools of the devil.

        • Sam says:

          Dr Quaine, Jesus said that tithing is in the law of Moses. Do you want to tell Jesus He was wrong too Read Mathew 23:23. Its easy to understand even for a Dr like you.

          • Gwaine says:

            What is wrong with you, Sam? Have I not answered your worry earlier in quoting Hebrews 7:5 to show that tithing was a commandment in the Law? So, just because tithing is in the Law, it automatically becomes void? Then please answer me: what does the apostle Paul say in Romans 3:31, ESV? Why are you avoiding that verse?

    • James says:

      Mr Gwaine or is it Dr, I am facinated by the way you mange to avoid quetions posted on this site . I think you are not only dulsional but totaly confused about scriptures in its proper context. You seem to have your own personal interpretaion of scripture like i have never come across before. Its typical of well ochestrated and delibrate misinterbretation of the bible in particular Apostle Pauls letter to the church in Galatia.

      I conclude that for someone to belive and promote the views and assumptions that you have revealed on this debate, its is with great dissapointment that you can strongly defend your opinions and arguements that you have voiced without any proper and well thought out intelligent position on these matters. I am convinced that you are a person of very poor academic backround or someone who is pretending to understand this debate to solicit selfish and very shallow agendas to achieve and satisfy your insecurerity on a personal level.

      • Gwaine says:

        Please James, I have appealed to you guys to save all your pathetic ad hominem fallacy and insults – it is just below you to even resort to that level when you don’t have a clue what you want to discuss from my posts.

        If you find something you don’t agree with, discuss that point – I will consider it. There are others that take the time to discuss rather than focus on personalities (Tony above is an example, and I’m not trying to flatter him here). You guys just jump in here, make false accusations and come back yelping all at once. Drop your mob mentality and jingoism and focus on issues – if you can’t just shut up and get over yourself for once.

        • James says:

          Dr Gwaine Gump , why shoud we waste time to discuss foolish and unbiblical misinterpretation of scripture that you bride yourself with. It will not help anyone or bring clarity to any of the comments that you posted here, because they are just so much rubbish that it will take years to try and free you from these lies and deception you have managed to entangled yourself in due to your efforts of appearing that you know what you are discussing and debating here. I find your comments irrelevant and totaly immature, irresponsible,ignorant, arrogant attempt to mislead christians into bondage again.

        • jackie says:

          Dr Gwaine Gump , I will help dismantle the deception you are trying to introduce here and expose who you really are. Unless we disect and analyse your lies the real motives behind the reason you post these stupid and unbiblical comments will never be revealed in its true deceptive form. You have chosen the wrong christians to mess with and try to deceive.

          • Gwaine says:

            @James and jackie,
            You are so laughable! How many lies will you circulate with your false accusations that are taking you lot forever to prove? You keep going round and round with the tradetools of the grand accuser and never able to defend one line of the cacophony you spew. Why is it taking you so long to quote me directly for your false accusations? When you’re done with your ad hominem and outright lying, it won’t be hard to tell.

        • jackie says:

          Dr Gwaine Gump, I am not intrested in reading the junk that you posted. The statement you made about tithing that God was more intrested in giving the readers of the bible a “principle” is not only a LIE but a total misinterpretation of scripture. Its like saying that God never gave a tithing law. The fact you refuse to accept that tithing is a law given exclusively to the Israelites is an evidence of how uneducated,irrelevant,ridiculous and a very poor understanding of scripture in its proper context. I advice anyone who read your comments to disregard every single one that you have posted on this site and futhermore treat all the junk you posted here with absolute caution because its very deceptive.

          • Gwaine says:

            @jackie,
            If reason was one of your forte, it would not have eluded you all this while. If you don’t understand what a ‘principle’ is, you would only attack and malign it – that is the usual reaction of those who are sold out to their legalistic ways. If you cannot see the ‘principle’ of the OT verses quoted in the NT by the apostles, please come out and brazenly DENY the FACT that the apostles quoted the Law of Moses! Please DENY that fact and stop dancing on ice!

            People like you who make false accusations that you cannot prove will forever prefer slinging mud and your surreptitious hate. No need for that – it is the sign of your desperation. There’s not a single issue you have accused that you have proven, no matter how many times I have called your attention to that and asked you to please list and discuss them!

            Your legalism is super! Please come back and keep peppering your false accusations with further prevarications – it’s the best you can display.

        • Sam says:

          Professor Gwaine Gump, Are you that delusional that you think you have any comments that you posted worth discussing ? When a prideful person is deceived like yourself its nearly impossible to free because of unbiblical belief that you hold on to and the arrogance that controls your emotions and your mind. Its nearly the same as trying to convince you that you are not Moses or Elijah.

          For you to admit that you are in error it will be like asking North Korea to admit that the communist regime fails.

          • Gwaine says:

            Sam, another lie won’t cover the first one you brazenly told. Where did I ‘admit’ that I was in error, please QUOTE ME directly! Just quote me and stop waving another one of your diabolic tradetools of false accusations. I have rather asked those who keep recycling your fallacy to point out what error they allege in my posts – where have any one of you pointed a single line out directly from my posts in the gutless lies you have been recycling?

            The amazing thing on this antitithing blog is that, where you cannot find anything to discuss in other people’s posts, you resort to slinging mud, throwing false accusations you can’t prove, pat your consciences with brazen lies, and then console one another with gutless mob mentality – then on your sanctimonious holy days you crawl to your worship houses and ‘praise’ God on top of it all! Have you no shame anymore? Why do you continue to recycle lies you can’t prove? NOT ONE of your brigade has attempted to show just one line of what you falsely allege – NOT ONE! Why is it taking you eons to wisen up and stop all this shameless falsehood?!?

            If you the best you can do is resort to these shameless falsehood everytime you have to comment, it would only confirm the very spirit you project. Please come back and confirm it with yet again.

        • Lenny says:

          Dr. Gwaine, The God who gave the commandment and statutes came in human flesh and summed up the commandments into one – LOVE. The God who was party to the giving of the commandments has, through His love, given us grace. Through His blood our sins are forgiven, and through His death we have been given life.

          Now, the God who gave commandments (to Israel specifically), fulfilled the law by being the only one who never sinned. But the sinless one died for the sins of the sinful (the entire world). In this light Rom. 10:4 Tells us that Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. The Bible again tells us:” For Christ did that which the Law, weakened by the flesh could not do. So, those who appreciate the meaning of these statements cannot celebrate the failure of the law to save them.

          When the Lord summed up the commandments as Love, Paul understood better and through the Holy Spirit, say “For the en of the commandment is LOVE. Therefore, If the Law has not ended in Christ, then God’s love that has been expressed through His beloved Son is vain or non-existent. But if indeed the law has ended in Christ ought we not rejoice? Surely, I do not approve of name calling as that does not go with the Love that we are all required to have and exhibit in our lives as a sign of the indwelling Christ’s presence in us.

          Most importantly though, it must be taken on board that Christ is the end of the law. For more insights on this matter, I urge you to read the Book: THE TITHING DILEMMA AND THE TRIUMPHS OF LOVE
          OR YOU CAN EMAIL ME SO THAT WE CAN DISCUSS. 

  2. Gwaine says:

    Tony,

    Tony: I couldn’t help laughing at your retort! Maybe we are not singing from the same song sheet after all, yours could have been a misprint with some texts missing.

    Anyways, I have probably “worn” meself out with this pointless banter and I am moving on to more edifying and productive pursuits. Please take good care of yourself and God bless.

    Many blessings, bro.

    • jackie says:

      Dr Try Hard Gwaine, Why dont you answer the question IS TITHING A LAW ?

      YES or NO Its that simple, IS CIRCUMCISION A LAW ?, IS SABBATH A LAW ?
      A liar is someone who refuse to answer those questions. Be transparent its easy for a DR like you or are you know avoiding to answer again ? ….lol..

      • Gwaine says:

        @jackie,

        I have not lie to you. Both you, James and Sam have asked that question and I have answered it directly by quoting Hebrews 7:5 SEVERAL TIMES and asked you to open your Bibles and READ it for yourselves. This was what I said –

        (a) my answer to James on 08/27/2010 at 2:17am >>

        ‘First, tithing was a commandment in the Law (see Heb. 7:5) – big difference.’

        (b) then my direct answer to you, jackie on 08/28/2010 at 7:23pm >>

        ‘I had ALREADY made my point in responding to James in a similar point, and hwre’s what I said: ||First, tithing was a commandment in the Law (see Heb. 7:5) – big difference. (08/27/2010 at 2:17 am)|| If you don’t allow your vexations to blind you, please jackie for your own sake open your Bible and R-E-A-D that verse – Hebrews 7:5. “A commandment” in the Law is NOT equal to ‘the whole law’, for crying out loud!

        So you can see that your desperation to wave another false accusation is seriously risible. Now jackie, Sam and James, what’s next in your drama of recycling your unsubstantiated and false accusations?!?

        Since you’re the same person who boasted you’re “not intrested in reading” what I posted, little wonder that you are repeating questions I’ve ALREADY dealt with. Having run out of your fluff, you now wave your recycled antics to buy time and litter this blog with your calcified antitithing legalism. Well done.

        BTW, why are you ducking the questions I left for you to prove your false accusations, jackie? Should I take it that you’re too ashamed of your empty allegations that you now pretend you never saw those simple questions? Your penchant for falsehood and slander is second to none – keep revealing you real spirit.

  3. Gwaine says:

    @jackie,

    jackie: Dr Gwaine Gump, you are calling christians who do not agree with your interpretation of scripture hateful and evil. So anyone who can see through your web of deception and lies you call them evil or workers for the devil ?

    Please stop making excuses for your surreptitious hate. Where did I call you ‘evil’? Oh, perhaps a nerve was touched that’s why you’re coming back with this poor piffle, yes? Your ‘christian love’ was best displayed by you repeatedly making false accusations that you can’t prove and directly calling me a ‘witch’ for absolutely no reason? And now you’re at it again – throw a pity-party to lie again that I called you ‘evil’? Have you lost your sense of shame and honesty, jackie?

    jackie: Please, could you tell us which church or denomination you belong to ? And could you expand on your personal beliefs about tithing if its a law given to Moses by God or not,please answer YES or NO

    If you had asked nicely from the onset instead of throwing lies against me that you cannot prove, I would have very early answered you. I am willing to answer your enquiries, but just so I know I’m not wasting my time dialoguing with someone who’s bent on lying, let me ask you to kindly oblige me your answers to my request, reproduced below:

    When you come back, please attend the simple questions I left you earlier:

    1. Please quote me anywhere you saw me saying that people should ‘go back and practise the Mosiac law’. I want to see that quote, the date and the time.

    2. If you can’t find me saying so, then by all means kindly refrain from the mischief of your false allegations.

    3. I have consistently said and maintained that Paul quoted verses from the Law of Moses to teach New Testament doctrines (Deuteronomy 25:4 – see 1 Corinthians 9:9-10 and 1 Timothy 5:18). Is this a FACT, or do you DENY that?

    4. I have also said that the Christian is NOT called to legalism, but rather to see the ‘principles’ set forth in the OT verses quoted by the apostles in the NT. Do you DENY this as well?

    5. Did you find any line in any of my posts saying what you accuse me of – that people should ‘go back and practise the Mosiac law’? Where did I say that? Please quote me, and I will consider it.

    As soon as you oblige me your honest answers to those without evading them, I shall be glad to provide you answers to your enquiries.

  4. To all antitithers,

    i have learned to take what Gwaine says with a grain of salt otherwise i would be wasting so much of the precious time that has been given to me. Eternal principles will never change and neither will Gwaine’s mind. So, do yourself a favor and spend very little time trying to dialogue with Gwaine.

    – jared

    • Gwaine says:

      To all antitithers,

      When you make false accusations that you cannot prove, you need more than a truck load of ‘salt’ to look within yourselves and and stop spreading slander. True, Gwaine will not change his mind about the deliberate lies that is being recycled on this blog by antitithers who never focus on issues but resort to invectives to hold onto their calcified legalism.

      If you don’t understand the meaning of the word “principle”, you don’t have to resort to mob jingoism and repeated slobbers against someone using it. Most of your antitithing heroes are busy quoting well established theologians who have used that same word to discuss 1 Corinthians 9 without hooting and yelping the way some of you have been.

      I came to discuss and have repeatedly appealed to you guys to save all the ad hominem and focus more on issues. If you have nothing better than resort to invectives, keep littering the blog and excusing it with unsubstantiated allegations.

      Cheers.

      • joel says:

        Dr Gwaine Gummpy, no one accused you of being a liar or a prideful,arrogant, uneducated, simple little man. Your comments declares all those qualities so clearly to everyone that you can not hide it. You need to seek professional help, its quite clear that you are suffering from severe psycological and deep emotional issues that you are running away from and using these unbiblical and outrages belief to draw attention to yourself to hide your insecurities and fear of being so worthless and insignificant. It will take years of therapy to unravel and help you come to reality and accept your failures and mistakes that normal humans go through in everday life. That diagnosis was for free,try to relax.

        • Gwaine says:

          @joel,
          Please don’t substitute your fallacy for reason. If you don’t know, I can sympathise with your vacancy of thought. Please scroll up and down this page alone and see the things your folks have been busy accusing against me – NONE of which they have proven. NONE. If you want to join them, the world is yours – do so instead of waving that weak excuse.

  5. Gwaine says:

    Fred Hatchett,

    Excuse me sir, but were animals being sacrificed by pagans prior to the law? Were altars being erected to deities prior to the law? Many things of pagan origin or that pagans were doing are recorded as being done prior to the law. Just because historical acts are not recorded in the Bible does not mean they didn’t occur and sre not factual.

    Many thanks, Hatchett. As regards Abraham’s tithes, your assertion was: “Actually he was implementing a PAGAN practice.” – (your direct quote, 06/25/2010 at 7:34pm). Unfortunately, that is NOT taught anywhere in Scripture – not even remotely suggested by any verse in all 66 books of the Bible. Pagans also prayed to their deities before Abraham’s time; does that mean therefore that he was “implementing” PAGAN practice when he prayed to God also?

    One cannot dribble ideas into Scripture to justify a position that is unwarranted by its texts – to do so is eisegesis, which is completely opposite to Biblical exegesis. You cannot therefore assert paganism for Abraham’s tithes to be “factual” for just your saying so, whereas nothing in either Genesis 14, Hebrews 7 or any other verse of Scripture indicates such an idea.

    There is no evidence of ABRAM, his name prior to God giving him his new name, being inspired by God to tithe. Actually, we don’t even know why Abram gave tithes, with the exception that it was already a common practice among pagans. You cannot discount history just because it does not fit your presupposition.

    Please, Hatchett… anyone who has any clue about ‘history’ will already see that I never discounted it in a single line of my posts. That was why I referenced Hugo Grotius’ scholarly work on the subject; such a literary masterpiece does not even remotely suggest that Abraham’s tithes were an imitation of paganism.

    The amazing thing yet is the new excuse that you don’t even know why Abraham gave tithes, which sounds like a parroting of someone else’s eisegesis without having carefully studied the texts yourself. If then you don’t know why Abraham gave tithes, why go on to assert so confidently that he was “implementing” pagan practice? What in Scripture would warrant such an idea from you?

    And by the way Gwaine, I take being born again seriously, as well as the calling of Minister. So before you call something or someone a lie, it’s best to withhold judgment
    and research the facts.

    That’s no problem, for I take these issues equally seriously as well. I have researched the subject carefully and have found the assertion that Abraham’s tithes to Melchizedek as “implementing” a PAGAN practice is nothing less than a tired old lie. Period.

    Those who manufactured that lie have not told you why they twisted Hugo Grotius’ scholarly work to assert what he never did! Please consult Grotius’ “De Jure Belli ac Pacis” (tr. by A. C. Campbell, 1814) for yourself and see things for yourself. If something is found to be patently false, it should be retired rather than being recycled under pretentious titles of “minister” to gull the unsuspecting reader.

    I say lay out your case on tithing instead of going back and forth. You all are loading up my inbox with bickering, although it may be relevant. If you won’t do that, cool. And please source your info.

    My case is simple and has been repeated far too many times on this blog already. The bickering was uncalled for: at least I’ve repeatedly appealed to antitithers to quit the ad hominem and false accusations that they cannot prove, and rather focus more on issues. I’m grateful for your calm comments.

    • “That’s no problem, for I take these issues equally seriously as well. I have researched the subject carefully and have found the assertion that Abraham’s tithes to Melchizedek as “implementing” a PAGAN practice is nothing less than a tired old lie. Period.” Gwaine

      You just stated that this is a lie. You stated an absolute. Now Mr Gwaine, allow me to beat you at you’re own game. You just stated that it is a lie. Well your statement is just as equally a lie, because you do not know if it is a lie. How do I know that?”

      “Pagans also prayed to their deities before Abraham’s time; does that mean therefore that he was “implementing” PAGAN practice when he prayed to God also?” Gwaine

      You are ASSUMING that Abram knew God all his life, and only prayed to the true God. You are also assuming that pagans prayed to false deities.

      I do not see any evidence of pagan prayer to idols before Abraham in the bible, but what does secular history say about prayer during Abraham’s lifetime? Does this mean that Pagans who prayed to their deities were implementing prayer to the true God?

      By the way, secular history prior to Abraham is valid in showing that tithing was a Pagan practice. I am not saying that tithing was an ungodly practice, nor is prayer.

      You make an assumption that if it’s not in scripture it cannot be true or factual. I am saying to you that tithing spoils to pagan kings and/or priests was common practice when Abraham was alive.

      He surely knew cultures well enough that Pharaoh would kill him and Abimelech take Sarah if they believed Sarah to be his wife. Now how did he know that? Why did he hold back part of the truth?

      James 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
      What scripture Gwaine? I have never seen it in any of the 66 books of the bible. So is James and God lying?

      So Gwaine, if I were to amend my statement and say that history shows that tithing the spoils of war was a common practice among Pagans during Abraham’s day. There is no other evidence to show why or how Abraham knew about tithing except for the historical account of tithing among Pagan cultures, specifically among Canaanites other than secular history.

      • Gwaine says:

        Fred Hatchett,

        I was quite amused at your strain of arguments; but please bear with me for setting forth my rejoinder in this instance rather than attend to all the posts you made – the others are needlessly repetitious.

        Hatchett:You just stated that this is a lie. You stated an absolute. Now Mr Gwaine, allow me to beat you at you’re own game. You just stated that it is a lie. Well your statement is just as equally a lie, because you do not know if it is a lie. How do I know that?

        First, I wasn’t playing any games. The point I highlighted is still up there if you want to seriously discuss.

        Indeed I stated an absolute in response to your own ‘absolute’ in your statement that “Actually he was implementing a PAGAN practice.” Without meaning to offend you personally, please let me reiterate in general that such an absolute assertion as you made is an absolute lie. Period. How do I know that? Simple: I checked out the source(s) in reference and found some very warped business that cannot be intelligently nor honestly defended.

        The ‘pagan practice’ assertion plastered on Abraham’s tithes to Melchizedek was manufactured by some antitithing ‘monks’ who have raher twisted things to assert what their cited sources never said about Abraham’s tithes. As a matter of fact, one of such sources quite simply states the direct opposite of what these antitithers are alleging. As an example I cited Hugo Grotius’ “De Jure Belli ac Pacis” (tr. by A. C. Campbell, 1814), and requested that you directly consult it for yourself. If you did, could you kindly quote exactly what Grotius said about Abraham’s tithes? – you might shock yourself out of yours socks.

        By reading the sources directly, anyone can plainly see it’s dubious to make such an assertion upon Abraham’s tithes – it was merely foisted upon the texts by those who found sport in such propaganda for reasons best known to them. Please consult Grotius’ masterpiece and see things for yourself: I checked things out that is why and how I got to know that such an assertion is a cosmetic antitithing farce.

        The thing that gets to me in all this is the shame of so-called “ministers” spreading manufactured lies and trying to cover up with sanctimonious verbiage to excuse their prevarications. This is not good for our consciences.

        Hatchett: You are ASSUMING that Abram knew God all his life, and only prayed to the true God. You are also assuming that pagans prayed to false deities.

        I did not ‘assume’ anything – please quote me directly and point out where I ever made any such “assumptions”. Did I hint at all that Abraham knew God all his life? WHERE?

        Hatchett: I do not see any evidence of pagan prayer to idols before Abraham in the bible, but what does secular history say about prayer during Abraham’s lifetime? Does this mean that Pagans who prayed to their deities were implementing prayer to the true God?

        I would have loved you to answer your own question. Who was “implementing” what? WHERE in God’s Word did you read the bold assertion about Abraham “implementing” a PAGAN practice in giving tithes to Melchizedek? Just where did you read such a thing anywhere in SCRIPTURE?

        Hatchett: By the way, secular history prior to Abraham is valid in showing that tithing was a Pagan practice. I am not saying that tithing was an ungodly practice, nor is prayer.

        So what exactly are you saying? Just because tithing prior to Abraham was known among pagans, does that therefore translate ‘paganism’ into the specific case of Abraham’s tithes to Melchizedek? Where did you read any verse in Scripture remotely arguing your absolute assertion of ‘PAGAN practice’ for Abraham?

        Please Hatchett, let’s just cut to the chase – if you find the verse for what you asserted, then by all means provide it here for us to read for ourselves. Failing that, there’s no need to wave excuses for your absolute assertion which finds no defence whatever in the Bible.

      • Gwaine says:

        @Hatchett,

        Hatchett: James 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
        What scripture Gwaine? I have never seen it in any of the 66 books of the bible. So is James and God lying?

        No offence to you, but please if you want to accuse Biblical characters or God of lying, find another occasion to do so. I’m only here to discuss issues, not make wild statements that border on such unnecessary illations just to make your point.

        However, we all know what James 4:5 was pointing to – it is a Biblical construct or style of inferring a general affirmation rather than directly quoting any verses verbatim. This occurs throughout Scripture and I could produce loads of them for you, please let me know.

        Even the Lord Jesus Christ also used such a style in His ministry, for example: “Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water'” (John 7:38, ESV). Of course, no OT verse is directly quoted verbatim there – rather, it is a style of Biblical construct where a general affirmation of Scripture truth is made.

        The interesting point in all this is that Scripture bears testimony to these affirmations directly within the pages of its 66 books. What James 4:5 and John 7:38 express are general affirmations of truth in Scripture, and they cannot be stretched to suggest that either of those verses were ferreted from outside the Bible.

        In just the same way, one cannot make an absolute statement such as you did, “Actually he was implementing a PAGAN practice” – an assertion which cannot be affirmed in any way from the texts of Scripture. What you so confidently asserted is in a class all by itself and bears no semblance at all to the Biblical construct or style of either James 4:5 or John 7:38.

        Hatchett: So Gwaine, if I were to amend my statement and say that history shows that tithing the spoils of war was a common practice among Pagans during Abraham’s day. There is no other evidence to show why or how Abraham knew about tithing except for the historical account of tithing among Pagan cultures, specifically among Canaanites other than secular history.

        That’s quite genial and I have no problems with your amendments. I’m very aware of historical antecedents in these things, and all that – but the point is that SCRIPTURE does not remotely suggest that Abraham was “implementing” a PAGAN practice in his tithes to Melchizedek.

        It is quite a classic case of eisegesis for anyone to try to foist paganism upon Abraham’s tithes just because tithes were known among ‘pagans’ prior to the patriach’s time. To insist it is “actually” the case, is to force what is not there into the text – and then when challenged, those making such an assertion have absolutely nothing to show in any line for what they so confidently claim.

        As regards the other posts you made, they are repetitions – so I’ll leave them for now.

        Cheers.

    • By the way, pagans were tithing spoils of war, therefore Abraham was implementing “a” practice that pagans of his time were already doing. So he was implementing a pagan practice of that time. Whether or not godly men prior to Abram were doing this, or God inspired men to do this evil men to practice tithing is irrelevant. Prayer all alone is not evil, but by whom and to whom it is directed makes a difference. It is obvious who Abraham had in mind when he was tithing, but that does not mean that pagans were not practicing it for their own reasons. We do not truly know if Melchizedek was speaking of the true God when he made his proclamation. He does not use the same terminology for God as Abram does.

      Is it your assumption that I am claiming that Abram was doing something evil? Is that square enough for you?

      And by the way, I appreciate what the challenge of what you said and I did notice the error of what I stated. This does not preclude me from being a minister, but actually makes me better suited to teach people what I know just a little bit better thanks to you.

      • Gwaine says:

        @Hatchett,

        And by the way, I appreciate what the challenge of what you said and I did notice the error of what I stated. This does not preclude me from being a minister, but actually makes me better suited to teach people what I know just a little bit better thanks to you.

        Thank you for that – you humbled me by your gentleness and genuineness. I apologise for any inconveniences my expression may have caused you, and I’m grateful for your example. May God richly bless and enrich your ministry for His Name sake.

  6. jackie says:

    Dr G Gump, I am stll waiting for you to answer, what is the “principle” in the law that says “thou shall not have sexual relations with animals ” ? You are very evasive when you do not want to answer a direct question. And why are you addressing me as someone else alter ego ?
    All the lies and deception you post here are not even worth reading. I like the way you refuse to accept the law God gave Moses for the Jews. How stupid, arrogant,ignorant and irresponsible can anyone be ? Do yourself a favour and come down to earth and go seek professional help.

  7. jackie says:

    Hi, I agree with you Joel I think Mr Gwaine is a witch send to deceive christians with lies .
    Warnning! Please be careful Gwaine is a witch
    Warning! Gwaine I believe is a WITCH pretending to be a christian
    DO NOT LISTEN TO ANY OF HIS RUBBISH, GWAINE IS A WITCH,

    I REPEAT DR FRAUD GWAINE IS A WITCH !!!! WARNNING!

  8. joel says:

    Dr Gwaine, Now you are lying again you never replied.

    IS TITHING A LAW ? YES or NO

    Where did you post your answer ?

  9. Sam says:

    Hi Jackie, DR gwaine is as slow as they come, dont waste youre time. If we taught a dog he would get it by now. He has absolutely NO IDEA, I ca n promise you Dr Thick Gwaine will not explain Galatians 5:3-4 because he is not only a WITCH but A VERY THICK WITCH! …lol

    • I don’t know if I would consider your comment productive or constructive?

      Maybe we should keep it a tad more civil. Don’t you think?

      • Gwaine says:

        I don’t know if I would consider your comment productive or constructive?

        Maybe we should keep it a tad more civil. Don’t you think?

        Thanks, steward. I wonder that they don’t really care about being civil – but it’s okay.

    • Sam says:

      Being a Gentile, I have no problem if anyone calls me a dog because Jesus called Gentiles “Dogs” I am a saved dog by the works of Christ Jesus. I am thankful that He died for a dog like me. But if it offends “Gentiles” and Jews I withdraw that comment for christians who loves Christ and acknowledge where Christ saved them from eg; Drug addicts, Slave traders, Mafia Bosses, Owner of Brothels and former Hit man if you get my drift.

      • James says:

        Shaloam,

        Hi Sam, I am a Gentile and I agree with you, Those who love Christ more are the real nasty hateful,selfish people Christ saved from their sins. I was a very evil person before God saved me by revealing Jesus Christ to me. You can call me anything you want, I dont care because I know Jesus died for a animal like me and I am secured in His love. Christ LIVES IN ME.

        • Frank J says:

          WORD MAN WORD!

          I was a drug dealer man, God saved me from drugs, fornication, violence, gangster life style. Now I am born again, call me anything you want but remember Jesus died for me too brother. WORD!

          • Gwaine says:

            Frank,
            I was a drug dealer man, God saved me from drugs, fornication, violence, gangster life style. Now I am born again, call me anything you want but remember Jesus died for me too brother. WORD!I didn’t call anyone a dog, witch or drug dealer. I think all this unnecessary. We should not be justifying sly invectives just to show how much we “love” Jesus Christ!

          • Gwaine says:

            Frank,

            “I was a drug dealer man, God saved me from drugs, fornication, violence, gangster life style. Now I am born again, call me anything you want but remember Jesus died for me too brother. WORD”!

            I didn’t call anyone a dog, witch or drug dealer. I think all this unnecessary. We should not be justifying sly invectives just to show how much we “love” Jesus Christ!

  10. Gwaine says:

    @jackie,

    jackie: THE LAW IS PERFECT, BUT THE LAW DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHTEOUS OR BAPTISE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.Thats the answer for Romans 3:31

    Why did you duck the simple questions I asked you on Romans 3:31, jackie? WHY? You make me laugh at your prevarications, you know.

    First, I did not say anywhere that the Law baptizes people with the Holy Spirit – it is quite inane on your part to even argue that in capital letters as if it was ever suggested anywhere in my posts! Neither did I say that the Law made anyone “righteous” (I’m very aware of the two main types of righteousnesses in the Bible: righteousness by the Law, and righteousness by faith – see Deut. 6:25; Roms. 10:5-6; and Phil. 3:,6 & 9). Why you are screaming about what I did not say, is beyond me and a sign of your own desperation!

    Second, if anything at all, I have quoted Romans 7:12 & 14 several times to show the quality and nature of the Law; so thanks again for confirming indeed that “the Law is perfect” – it makes no difference from what I already said a week ago: ‘The problem is not with the Law, but rather with the person who fails to see its spiritual import‘ (my direct statement on 08/25/2010 at 3:33am).

    Third, Romans 3:31 does not say what you said. That was why I quoted it directly several times, so please stop waving your lame excuses or try something else! Here again is the verse, quoted from the ESV, NIV and Amplified versions – make your pick >>
    (a) “Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.” (Rom. 3:31, ESV)
    (b) “Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.” (Rom. 3:31, NIV)
    (c) “Do we then by [this] faith make the Law of no effect, overthrow it or make it a dead letter? Certainly not! On the contrary, we confirm and establish and uphold the Law.” (Rom. 3:31, Amp.)

    Now jackie, where are you going to run and hide from Romans 3:31?!? The reason you cannot quote and discuss it is obvious – you can’t snake your way round what you have attacked and pretend you’re saying the same thing! That was why I asked you: ‘Does the statement “uphold the Law” mean the same as making it “void”?’ Absolutely NOT!

    Paul was already aware that the Law does not justify anyone (Gal. 2:16); nor could the Law make anyone perfect (cf. Heb. 7:19); nor could the Law condemn sin in the flesh (Rom. 8:3); nor could the Law give life to anyone (Gal. 3:21); nor is the Law against the promises of God (Gal. 3:21).

    BUT, inspite of all these things about the Law, he made clear that although the problem is not with the Law (for it is holy and spiritual – Romans 7:12 & 14) – yet he declared that we CANNOT overthrow/void the Law “by faith” – ‘on the contrary’, he said, ‘we confirm and establish and uphold the Law‘!

    Dear jackie, joel, Sam, and James, for all your puerile arguments, what do you understand by Paul’s declaration in Romans 3:31 that ‘we confirm and establish and uphold the Law‘?!? This is the question that you should very calmly seek to address instead of littering this blog with prevarications that you don’t read anywhere in my posts!

    Did Paul void the Law in Romans 3:31? Please deal with that question.

    • Sam says:

      Dr gwaine, This is exactly why Idont read your rubbish. So what are you saying keep the law. You think you know more than anyone including Paul who God inspired to write the epistles.

      What does “uphold” mean to you ? To hold in high regard or great value. It does not mean to change it any part of the law in any way shape or form.It does not say to keep it or practise it because Galatian 5:3-4 says to keep one you need to keep the whole lot

      Once again what does Galatian 5:3-4 means to you Witch Gwaine ?

      • Gwaine says:

        Sam,

        Dr gwaine, This is exactly why Idont read your rubbish. So what are you saying keep the law. You think you know more than anyone including Paul who God inspired to write the epistles.

        I asked you a simple question on Romans 3:31. I did not claim anywhere that anyone was to “keep the Law” in the legalism you and your lot argue endlessly; nor did I say anyone was to change any part of the Law.

        This is why I have asked you guys to

        quote me directly

        instead of jumping into conclusion and reading your red herring here and there for what I never said.

        You can rant and curse all you want – that shows your true ‘christian’ spirit.

        • James says:

          Dr gwaine, dont try to make excuses you know what you are doing,if you are innocent then you have no reason to worry about the CURSE Paul declared for WITCHES LIKE YOU. See in one month

          • Gwaine says:

            @James,

            Dr gwaine, dont try to make excuses you know what you are doing,if you are innocent then you have no reason to worry about the CURSE Paul declared for WITCHES LIKE YOU. See in one month

            What excuses do you read from me after all your wasted cursing? Your slanders and false accusations you cannot prove are the trademark of your legalism – which is why you keep marking time on the same cursing spot and never progress to something else. I have said and will repeat, since you cannot prove one line of your accusations, then your curses will return to you (Psalm 109:17).

    • Sam says:

      Witch Gwaine I will not respond to you from now on .I have never debated with anyone as deceived or thick like you before. No wonder why christians avoid debating with you because you are the most arrogant, proud, deceived witch I have ever come across . May the curse Paul said in Galatian 1:8-9 fall on you and all that you do from this day onwards.

      • Gwaine says:

        @Sam,

        Witch Gwaine I will not respond to you from now on .I have never debated with anyone as deceived or thick like you before. No wonder why christians avoid debating with you because you are the most arrogant, proud, deceived witch I have ever come across.

        Antitithers who don’t like to debate with me have never had anything useful to say from the onset. This page alone is a testimony to that fact – because the only thing you resort to is cursing and false accusations for things you cannot prove anywhere in my posts.

        May the curse Paul said in Galatian 1:8-9 fall on you and all that you do from this day onwards.

        You’re not the first desperate soul to try so hard to lay a curse on me for absolutely no reason. All those who did so since a year ago in other places have failed miserably. I will not curse you, since that is not what the Christian testimony is about (James 3:10 and 1 Pet. 3:9).

        My answer to those who frantically seek to lay a curse on others has always been the same – your undeserved curse will not land on its intended victim (Prov. 26:2, NLT); and if you love to curse others, then your unwarranted cursing may return to you (Psalm 109:17).

        • Sam says:

          Dr gwaine, Paul CURSED the people who taught and encouraged christians to go back and practised the Mosiac law God gave Moses. If you are teaching and encouraging christians to go back and revive any part or even just circumsicion, sabbath, tithing THEN YOU ARE GUILTY. That means Apostle Paul CURSED you not me or any christian.
          That CURSE by Paul NEVER FAILS.

          • Gwaine says:

            @Sam

            Dr gwaine, Paul CURSED the people who taught and encouraged christians to go back and practised the Mosiac law God gave Moses. If you are teaching and encouraging christians to go back and revive any part or even just circumsicion, sabbath, tithing THEN YOU ARE GUILTY. That means Apostle Paul CURSED you not me or any christian.
            That CURSE by Paul NEVER FAILS.

            Since you cannot prove your false accusations against me, your curse will return to you (Psalm 109:17).

          • Sam says:

            Mr gwaine,

            Dont lie now,you encourage christians to TITHE, you said in your post that tithing was a principle that God wanted us to continiue to practise. You are now dealing with Apostle PaulS teaching, Let us see if GWAINE or PAUL WAS LYING OR IN ERROR

        • Sam says:

          Mr waine fraud, Lets see if your innocent or guilty,God will decide if you are or not,
          If you are a spiritual like you said you are then let us wait and see. I advised you before to humble yourself but you ignore it because of your pride .The CURSE ARE FOR DECEIVERS,LIARS AND WITCHES. You have no reason to be upset IF YOU ARE NOT. SEE YOU IN ONE MONTH

          • Gwaine says:

            Sam,

            Mr gwaine,
            Dont lie now,you encourage christians to TITHE, you said in your post that tithing was a principle that God wanted us to continiue to practise. You are now dealing with Apostle PaulS teaching, Let us see if GWAINE or PAUL WAS LYING OR IN ERROR

            Your confusion is nice to read. Let me quote my own statement so you don’t misrepresent my statements with your red herring:

            I don’t have any problems whatsoever with someone choosing to express his giving by the principle of ‘tithing’; and if another chooses to not tithe, good for them as well. My principle has always been this: each person should be convinced in his or her own mind (Rom. 14:5), and each should be free to decide within themselves just what and how they give (2 Cor. 8:12 & 9:7). The one who is persuaded to express his giving by the principle of tithing should do so cheerfully; another feels to do so in some other ways – God bless them both. The essential point is that we should go beyond mere arguments to actually giving (2 Cor. 8:11)!
            Either way, cajoling or manipulating people to altogether stop tithing is as macabre as trying to force or compel or coerce or manipulate people to tithe/give. [my statement on 08/27/2010 at 2:17am]

            Of course, Tony already said that the antitithers on this blog are saying “EXACTLY” the same thing as I have been saying. I guess he’s now finding out for sure that you guys have been singing your own confusion all along – but let me quote him directly:

            Tony: “Correct me if I am wrong, you view is anybody should be allowed to give in anyway they choose be it through tithing or via any other media. I still fail to see why you are arguing because that is exactly what we have been saying all along – give what you want to give be it 1%, 5%, 10% or a 100%.” – [Tony on 08/29/2010 at 3:48pm]

            So, if Tony declares that you all on this blog have been saying “exactly” the same thing as I have been saying, would you be glad to put yourselves under the same ‘curses’ you’ve been desperately waving around?

            Yes, I have used the word “principle” again and again to maintain that nobody should be forced to either tithe or to stop tithing altogether. I also noted that some scholars have no problem speaking about “principle” in Paul’s use of the Law of Moses in 1 Corinthians 9. NONE of you have been able to DENY the fact that Paul quoted from “the Law of Moses”; but in your desperate haste to display your maganified hypocrisy about what you don’t understand, you sling about your own fake prophecy of cursing without a reason at all, and then excuse your acrid inanity under Paul’s epistle!

            This is why I noted all along that your antitithing legalism is peppered with a kooky sort of hypocrisy. Your antitithing monks have been busy quoting and agreeing with reknowned pastors who encourage their members to tithe – how many of such pastors would you curse if I were to quote them here? This is why your illiterate rants are marvellous to read, not least because you are completely ignorant of what you are alleging!

            When your curses fail to come to pass, your tomfoolery will be awesome to see (Proverbs 10:18, NLT).

          • Gwaine says:

            Sam,

            Mr waine fraud, Lets see if your innocent or guilty,God will decide if you are or not,
            If you are a spiritual like you said you are then let us wait and see. I advised you before to humble yourself but you ignore it because of your pride .The CURSE ARE FOR DECEIVERS,LIARS AND WITCHES. You have no reason to be upset IF YOU ARE NOT. SEE YOU IN ONE MONTH

            Why are you so desperate to repeat yourself if you’re sure that your sanctimony has any substance? Since I have not defrauded you, and you have not proven your false accusations by quoting me directly, nor have you been able to deny anything I pointed out from Paul’s epistle, your slander is a wasteful exercise that will only return your cursing to you (Psalm 109:17). I tried to reason with you guys to be careful not to turn your tongue to cursing (James 3:8-11), for with that same tongue you crawl into your worship houses to “praise” God – but since you know nothing better than to keep up that drama, then continue.

        • James says:

          Dr gwaine, Why should you be concerned if you are innocent ? This will reveal if Pauls Curse still has power, You said you do not deceive,manipulat or lie about scripture,so this is the test if what you said and posted here was true. You should not be angry or upset. Spiritual Giant like you should laugh and mock this CURSE by Paul because you know more than everyone here. You said we are all liars, so let us wait and see what happens.

          • Gwaine says:

            James,

            Dr gwaine, Why should you be concerned if you are innocent ? This will reveal if Pauls Curse still has power, You said you do not deceive,manipulat or lie about scripture,so this is the test if what you said and posted here was true. You should not be angry or upset. Spiritual Giant like you should laugh and mock this CURSE by Paul because you know more than everyone here. You said we are all liars, so let us wait and see what happens.

            I am not concerned, perturbed or upset about your fake prophecies – they have failed in the past and WILL fail again. I keep replying you guys as evidence that NOTHING of all your curses are working – whether you keep buying time for a month or a year, they are dreadfully failing. You had absolutely no reason to resort to such antics just to pepper your sanctimony, so hiding it behind “Paul” is even far more hilarious. Tell me, how much time do you need? And when it fails AGAIN, where will you hide your face?

    • joel says:

      Dr gwaine, Lets see if you want to play a little game. If you want to see if the CURSE that Paul declared in Galatian 1:8-9 still works. I give you 1 month after 1 month come back and share what happened to you in your life. May the CURSE that Paul CURSED THE WITCHES IN Galatians 1:8-9 come on to you Gwaine RIGHT NOW. Lets see what happens to you within 1 month.

      • Gwaine says:

        @joel,

        Dr gwaine, Lets see if you want to play a little game. If you want to see if the CURSE that Paul declared in Galatian 1:8-9 still works. I give you 1 month after 1 month come back and share what happened to you in your life. May the CURSE that Paul CURSED THE WITCHES IN Galatians 1:8-9 come on to you Gwaine RIGHT NOW. Lets see what happens to you within 1 month.

        Same answer as to Sam. You’re not the first desperate soul to try so hard to lay a curse on me for absolutely no reason. All those who did so since a year ago in other places have failed miserably. I will not curse you, since that is not what the Christian testimony is about (James 3:10 and 1 Pet. 3:9).

        My answer to those who frantically seek to lay a curse on others has always been the same – your undeserved curse will not land on its intended victim (Prov. 26:2, NLT); and if you love to curse others, then your unwarranted cursing may return to you (Psalm 109:17).

        • Sam says:

          Dr Fraud gwaine or witch gwaine, It is not me or anyone that is CURSING YOU, This is why I said you are very slow.Apostle Paul CURSED people like you who promote the lies and twist scripture for your own stupid agendas. So ask God if its our CURSE or its Apostle Pauls who God recorded in Galatians 1:8-9.

          Are you that simple that you cant read who Apostle Paul CURSED? Do you even know what we are reffering to here ? I hope you know that you are not Apostle Paul or Jesus Christ for crying out loud.

        • joel says:

          Witch gwaine, Pauls CURSE still is recorded in Galatian 1:8-9 .No one has the right to CURSE anyone according to the New Covenant . God recorded Pauls CURSE for a reason,understand this it was for people who lie about scriptures manipulate christians to go and keep the Mosaic law again.

          Tithing IS A LAW whether you like it or not ITS NOT A PRINCIPLE. Get that through your thick arrogant head .

        • joel says:

          Witch gwaine, all this will finish if you only answer one question

          IS TITHING A LAW ? Yes or No

          Thats all you have to do, Say YES or NO

        • Frank J says:

          Whats up brother Gwaine, I am confused brother why dont you answer if tithing is a law man, Just say Yes or No man. I think they will leave you alone brother if you answer them. Chill .

          • James says:

            Hi Frank, Fraud gwaine is scared of saying Yes or No incase christians find out he has no idea about this at all. He suddenly disappear when you ask him if TITHING IS A LAW. He wont say Yes or No because he is a LIAR. He will try and say that tithing was a principle God wanted to promote.

            He refuses to admit that sabbath, tithing,circumsicion,burnt offerings, sin offerings ARE GODS LAWS

  11. freewillgiver says:

    What is the difference between Giving and MoneyTithing? Are only some priest entitled to the money tithes of other Chrisitans? Are all Christians equally entitled to each others money?

    Antitithers see giving as graceful love and tithes connected to subordination of others. Where in the Bible was tithe ever not from one to an entitled noble then to God. An entitled mediator is inherent in any tithe system. Please demonstrate for those who support church money tithing in the Bible where tithes were not an entitlment. One separated person recieved while another subordanate gave. In the Body of Christ the leaders are servant of servants. Jesus was the greatest looser who was God and became a nothing servant.

    Preachers who teach tithes have an imperial attitude conserning giving. Moneytithes are a tax, imposition, tribute, hire, & entitlment. Who can argue against any of these definitions for moneytithes taught in Churches today? Jesus giving is Grace, Welfare, Altruism, Invitation, & Evangelism. Do pro and neutral tithe preachers debate the issue of tithes us with these qualities?

    • freewillgiver says:

      Sorry I meant to say Jesus love is Grace, Welfare, Alturuism, Invitation, Nurture, & Evangelism!!!! How are our tithe debates reflecting these atributes of the love of Jesus!

      Grace, Welfare, Alturuism, Invitation, Nurture, & Evangelism!!!!

  12. freewillgiver says:

    I will attempt to continue to debate Grace, Welfare, Alturuism, Invitation, Nurture, & Evangelism in Jesus. but I am often a hypocrite. I have often debated outside of Jesus but this was self service. So are money tithes a form of subordination?

  13. Gwaine says:

    James, joe, jackie, sam, etc.

    It’s been over a month since your ‘curse’ – what has happened? Absolutely nothing against me! :) I already told you: an undeserved curse will not land on its intended victim (Prov. 26:2, NLT); and your slanders only make you the desperate fellows you are (Prov. 10:18, NLT). I’m not surprised that none of you have been able to directly quote me for any of the false accusations you make against my posts – NONE! And none of you have made an effort to answer the simple questions I left you.

    Not to worry – I’m not amazed how you resort to these things as substitutes for reason. You could all return to yet again repeat the same fallacies and false accusations which you cannot prove… and if that is how you champion your spiritual experience, please carry on. :)

    • joel says:

      Hi, Dr Gwaine Fraud its not my “CURSE” or anyones its Apostle Paul who wrote it given by the Holy Spirit . That is what I call foolish laughing and mocking the scriptures. When you wake up or get off the heavy drugs you are on then you will be able to separate opinions by men and the scriptures. Even that is so simple a child can understand and respect it but you are so full of yourself it will years for you to comprehend it . The curse in Galatians was given directly from God Himself unless you think Apostle Paul was immature or maybe acting out of hatred. Humilty is a revelation of Christ not something you study or read from a book.

  14. I will say this in all honesty. The only reason that tithing is up for debate is because of financial reasons. The ONLY New Testament reference to tithing mentions its utter uselessness in the presence of a better covenant. The Levitical Priesthood is ABOLISHED. The Jewish Priests to whom the Levites gave the tithe of their tithes to is of none effect. But without any Levites, there would be no tithes to be recieved by the priests. In essence, Hebrews 7 ushers in a new Priest and the old is abolished. It’s almost similar of trying to put old wine (TITHING Animals and Farm Products) into the new wineskin (Free Will Giving of Money). The obvious is the fact that Free Will Giving of money has never been abolished. THE TITHE IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Gwaine says:

      Please Fred, calm down and reason! It doesn’t cost anything. Hebrews 7 does not ‘abolish’ tithes, but rather sets aside the Levitical priesthood. That same Hebrews 7 shows you Abraham’s tithes – and Levi was said to have given tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham (Heb. 7:9) – does it say in any verse in that chapter that ‘tithes’ in themselves have been ‘abolished’? Nor would you find any verse in Hebrews 7 saying that tithes in themselves were ‘useless’, in which case it would plainly have argued that Abraham’s tithes to Melchizedek were ‘useless’.

      And where does Hebrews 7 or any verse “establish” the ‘Free Will Giving of money‘? Why do you make such hollow assertions that nobody can read anywhere in the Bible?

      A tithe is simply a tenth – nothing wrong with anyone giving a tenth or a tithe of their resources as an expression of their offering to God. Nobody has to be tied down with rigid antitithing legalism in these things.

      • G

        Please Fred, calm down and reason! It doesn’t cost anything.

        Min. H

        Oh I’m good to go, and we can reason, no problem.

        G

        Hebrews 7 does not ‘abolish’ tithes, but rather sets aside the Levitical priesthood. That same Hebrews 7 shows you Abraham’s tithes – and Levi was said to have given tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham (Heb. 7:9) – does it say in any verse in that chapter that ‘tithes’ in themselves have been ‘abolished’?

        Min. H

        I am going to make sure that I answer every question, so be sure to lend me the same courtesy. Yes they have.

        Who were tithes to be paid to? The Levitical Priesthood. There are no Levitical Priests to receive tithes or pay tithes through. If you cannot reason that, then there is no further discussion on that issue.

        Is tithing a law, or an ordinance of the Law?

        G

        Nor would you find any verse in Hebrews 7 saying that tithes in themselves were ‘useless’, in which case it would plainly have argued that Abraham’s tithes to Melchizedek were ‘useless’.

        Min. H

        I see you want to try and MISCONSTRUE and TWIST my words. I DID NOT SAY THAT TITHES WERE USELESS, DID I?

        “The ONLY New Testament reference to tithing mentions its utter uselessness in the presence of a better covenant.” Min. H

        You’re a grown up, and I thought we were here to reason, not play twister with my statements.

        G

        And where does Hebrews 7 or any verse “establish” the ‘Free Will Giving of money‘? Why do you make such hollow assertions that nobody can read anywhere in the Bible?

        MIn. H

        You TWISTED what I said again.

        “It’s almost similar of trying to put old wine (TITHING Animals and Farm Products) into the new wineskin (Free Will Giving of Money). The obvious is the fact that Free Will Giving of money has never been abolished.” Min. H

        I never said that Hebrews 7 said anything like this. I was making a clear illustration not to mix tithing in with what the New Testament states about giving MONEY. Free Will Giving of money was used to build the temple. This is what Moses asked for in Exodus 35 along with the other temple materials. I don’t remember him asking for a tithe of the money. I wonder why?

        Now let’s go to the New Testament. Do we see the tithe even referenced to GIVING MONEY at ALL in the New Testament? I am curious to see how you answer this. Here’s what we do see. Now this is not all, but just a few examples.

        II Corinthians 8 and 9

        I Corinthians 16

        We also see that giving to the poor is important- Luke 14

        We Paul refers back to the Old Testament in terms of giving, I have not seen where he uses the tithe as an example.

        G

        A tithe is simply a tenth – nothing wrong with anyone giving a tenth or a tithe of their resources as an expression of their offering to God. Nobody has to be tied down with rigid antitithing legalism in these things.

        Min. H

        The word tithe is attached to nothing that warrants giving of one’s income. Let me say it like you. I do not see one scripture where it says to take one’s income and give a tenth of it. So why do it? So why should we be tied down to redefining what the TITHE actually is. It’s the tenth part of WHAT? It is LOGICAL and REASONABLE that if I ask someone for 20%, they are going to ask, of what? SO do we do pre-tax, post-tax, after bills are paid, etc. How are we to biblically give a tenth?

        If you want to say that Abraham tithed money, okay, but let’s take it all the way then. If my Nephew gets kidnapped by some rulers in Asia, and I go and beat their butts, take all they took, and bring it back, WHO will come out to meet me to give the tenth part to? There is no one to give it to, there is no more priests after the order of Melchizedek. And Gwaine, I would need a king and priest to come out and meet me. What am I saying? There is NO HUMAN for me to give it to. Based on evidence of the times, Abraham was following a cultural phenomenon. God chose to use it differently for the Israelites.

  15. REV . RANDY AMMONS says:

    IF YOU WOULD  LIKE  TO  KNOW  ALL THE TRUTH  ABOUT  TITHES  &  OFFERINGS  AS  A  WORKMAN  THAT IS  A CHILD  OF  GOD  I  HAVE  BEEN  SHOWN  THE  TRUTH IN  THE  WORD  OF  GOD  AND STUDY UNDER THE LORD JESUS TEACHINGS FOR  A  FEW  YEARS AND CAN  BACK  IT  UP  IN  THE  OLD & NEW TESTAMENT  WITH  OVER  ABOUT  30  SCRIPTURES  TO  HELP  THE PEOPLE OF  GOD  GET  A  BETTER  UNDERSTANDING  OF  WHAT  GOD  REALLY DID  SAY  JUST  BY  READING  THEM TO  THE  PEOPLE  IF  THEY  WILL HAVE  A  OPEN  HEART  TO  THE  WORD. SO  THEN  THE SCRIPTURE COMES  INTO PLAY SOME  WILL  AND SOME WILL NOT  FOR  THE  LORD  SAID  THEY  HAVE  EYES TO  SEE  BUT  CAN  NOT SEE  AND THEY  HAVE  EARS  TO  HEAR  BUT  CAN  NOT  HEAR SO  FULFILLING  THE  PROPHET  ISAIAH  SAYINGS  THAT  JESUS  SAID  ALSO  THEY   CLOSED  THEIR  HEARTS  TO  THE  TRUE  GOSPEL .  AND ALL  SCRIPTURE 2 TIMOTHY 3 : 16  &  4 :  2- 4  AND  SO  2 PETER  2 : 3  THE LORD  SPOKE AUTOABLE  IN  2007  SO  THAT’S  IS  THAT  GOD  HAS  SPOKEN  AND IT GOES  FORTH AND HE WATCHES OVER THAT WORD TO DO IT. SO THERE IS  NOTHING COVERED THAT  SHALL NOT BE REVEALED , AND HID THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN  MATTHEW  10 : 26 SO  JUST  GET READY  FOR IT IS  COMING SAYS THE LORD !   SO THIS  IS  HOW  I KNOW THE LORD  JESUS TOOK ME TO  HEAVEN  ABOUT 7-8 TIMES SO FAR  AND ME  AND JESUS AND GOD  OUR  FATHER  HAVE  HAD  A  FEW  TALKS  AND HIS  PEOPLE NEED  THE TRUTH ! AND  I  WOULD  LIKE TO TELL THEM  MORE  ABOUT  HIM  AND  HIS  WORD TO  HELP THEM  SO  IF YOU THINK THAT  WE ARE  ON THE  SAME  PAGE  OF  PERFECTING THE SAINTS AS  IN EPHESIANS  4 : 12  YOU  GIVE  ME  A  E- MAIL BACK  SO  THAT  THE  REAL  CHURCH  OF  GOD CAN RAISE  UP  AND TAKE  HER PLACE TO  GO  DO THE WORK THE LORD HAS CALLED HER TO  DO  IN THIS HOUR  IN  POWER ! YOUR  BROTHER IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.  REV. RANDY AMMONS “CHILD OF  THE  MOST HIGH GOD”

    • joel says:

      Hi, This is not for psyciatric patients who are on medication or have run away from the hospital. Please if you want to be called “Revrend” you have come to the wrong place. Fraud and Con artist are not welcomed here with open arms.

  16. Tithing is a form of sacrifice.So is alms giving and generally just giving or fasting.What is sacrifice? Giving up what is ‘rightfully’ ours for the benefit of others.Now read carefully:
    Jesus:”1. Love your God with all…. 2. Love your neig…hbour…”
    Jesus again:”The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments.”
    Therefore watch:
    Tithing is encompassed in Love of God.
    Alms is Love of neighbor and God.
    fasting is love of God,self or even neighbor depending on the reason for the fast.
    Continuing:_
    God is Love; now watch :
    God is eternal,God is infinite
    therefore love is eternal and love is infinite and if the Law is
    encompassed in Love which is God, therefore it is eternal/ Infinite
    Continuing_
    We are called to be priests and workers in the vineyard.How do I work in the vineyard as say a”business man”.
    When I give of what i earn to the lord.When I dedicate the first fruits of my labor I am dedicating not only my Money bu…t all my actions,sweat and strength that produced this money. I am saying all my sweat was for U Lord this money is yours a token of my Love for u.
    Then he says ” sweet child Thank you here is 90% as your Wages”.
    Jesus:”Parable of the ten Lepers- gratitude”. And If all good things come from God then he is the true recipient of our gratitude first not miself not prada:)
     
    Now If I have acknowledged God as the source of my blessings and I set my heart to give my tithe LOVINGLY;
     
    Note: motives are very important to God. Then I become a priest/worker in the vineyard Because what i give the priest uses to aid him …in the salvation of souls therefore I am participating in my salvation and that of others and so my actions in the field are blessed and sanctified and the fruits multipled.
     
    Finally :
    Jesus:”What greater Love than a man who lays down his Life….” Christ made the ultimate sacrifice.Therefore with great love comes great sacrifice.
    little love .little sacrifice. The fulfillment of the law is the measure of our Love.Paul …says without love our works are in vain.
     
    Those who do not tithe break the first commandment.
    Now the parts of the priesthood that were changed were these
    Read carefully
    Jesus “Blood Of the new covenant……..so that SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN ”
    He changed (more like upgraded coz a sacrifice is still needed) the laws concerning the remission of sins.No more animal sacrifices were needed only HIS sacrifice is needed.He also revised the priesthood ALL are called to be priests not only levities. The other parts of GOD’s (not man made laws by )LAW remain intact!!!
     
    Circumcision was the sign of the old covenant therefore not needed anymore

    • joel says:

      Hi Connie, Circumcision was a law given to the children of Israel by God through Moses. Same as sabbath, tithing, cleansing ceremonies etc…
      You and I do not have the right to try and separate any of those laws and try to bring it into the new covenant we have in Christ now so tha we can earn a living from it .
      Please go read all of Galatians then come back and continiue our debate.
      Mathew 23:23NKJ,AMP,NLT teaches that Christ included tithing in the law of Moses.
      For Jesus to receive money tithes when he was here, means he would have sinned against the law of Moses because he was not a Levite according to Numbers 18:1-3. So please examine scriptures carefully because God put it there for us not to go back and practise any law that was exclusively given to the Jews.
      Let me ask you a question, are you a pastor ? or do you receive money tithes ?

      • You are wrong It is Abraham who received circumcision

        Read Genesis 17:1-7

        Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.”

        Baptism(where we receive the holy spirit) is the Sign of the new covenant that is why we do not circumcise

  17. Jesus IS Grace. Grace(Jesus) helps us to fulfill the Law perfectly through the motivation of Love.Therefore when our lives are in Jesus we are living by grace not Law. When we leave Jesus out we and try to fulfill the Law on our Own we fail coz of  our sinful nature. And If we fail to fulfill the Law we shall die! But in christ we fulfill it hence we live!
    Needs a mystic to get this pray for enlightenment

  18. Sin is the transgression of the Law!!! (1 John 3:4) what come again???

    so to rephrase Jesus actually said:
    “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of the transgression of the Law.” Ouch!!

  19. REV. RANDY AMMONS says:

    2  Peter  3: 16  AS  ALSO  IN  ALL  HIS  EPISTLES , SPEAKING  IN  THEM  OF  THESE  THINGS , IN  WHICH  ARE  SOMETHINGS  HARD  TO  BE  UNDERSTOOD  , WHICH  THEY  THAT  ARE  UNLEARNED  AND  UNSTABLE WREST , AS  THEY  DO  ALSO  THE  OTHER  SCRIPTURES , UNTO  THEIR  OWN  DESTRUCTION.

  20. freewillgiver says:

    Connie and Randy Ammons Thank you for posting

    Rev Ammons I dont know what you think about money tithes or what you meant by your post. Please enlighten us. I suppose you oppose money tithes like the New testement. If you reply again mabey you could teach more and be more clear. Thank you. The Book of James ask some tough questions relating to money…Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

    Connie Yes All in Jesus are priest and Christians live in Grace, Galatians 2:16 however Connie why do you call Christian giving tithes? I ask the same question as Joel, do you expect a tithe of money from anyone or do you think that you must give some ministry a money tithe? If Moses never commanded the Jews to tithe sheckles, I ask like The African friend in England so eloquently posted on this blog, why do any preachers command that all Christians must give 10% of their income to certain ministries? Please Christians we must be more suspicious of those very willing to hold the bag of money. Remember Judas was the treasurer. Connie If We live under grace and are all priest how can one priest expect a money tithe like the ancient kings of the middle east?

    Everyone Please search the scriptures friends to explain your doctrines. Study to show yourselves approved unto God!… Good doctrines heal while bad doctrines are like bad medicine. For those who support church tithes I leave my 20th question or so I lost count,
    Is money tithe expectation really a better way to love anyone in the Body of Christ?

    Christ in US!

    • No I am not a minister, I do not receive tithes from everyone remember I said
      LOVE is a prerequisite for sacrifice. read and understand my post. I do not believe in pastors Imposing tithes from people either. I am catholic and the church does not force me to tithe. It is a choice. But like I said with great Love comes great Sacrifice. How can I Love God and not give unto Him?

      • Obedience is a sign of how far one has come in his journey with God. The more you lose yourself or become selfless the more obedient you are. Obedience also is a true sign of humility. These are key signs of the spirit dwelling in us. (You shall know them by their fruits).

        Sin is the transgression of the Law!!! (1 John 3:4) what come again??? therefore the law is still active in the NT and today coz we still SIN.

        so to rephrase Jesus actually said:
        “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of the transgressions of the Law.” Ouch!!

        Now:
        The law of moses also contains the 10 commandments, approved sexual and social practices or do we ignore this coz the law was undone?

        Matthew 23:23 says(NIV)
        “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.”

        Matthew 23:23 (King James Version)

        23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

        Practice the virtues of justice, mercy and faithfulness WITHOUT NEGLECTING the tithes.

        • joel says:

          Connie, Is it me or Mathew 23:23 says MINT ,DILL and CUMMIN .
          Who changed it to DOLLARS ,EUROS ,POUNDS , YEN etc ….lol
          Thou shall not covet your neighbours MONEY or 10% of his or her income to pay for your pastors salary or to build your church .
           

        • joel says:

          Connie, Judas did not betray Jesus for  30 kilos of cummin, arnise or mint
          IT WAS 30 PIECES of “SILVER”
          JUDAS COVET MONEY not mint ,arnise and cummin
          Satan is still making christians COVET MONEY to this very day
          When Satan tempted Jesus he offered Him the the whole world and all its riches,
          What do you think Satan is tempting people with kilos of mint, arnise or cummin ?……lol today ?

      • Matthew 5:17-20 (New International Version, ©2011)

        The Fulfillment of the Law
        17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

        BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU TEACH OTHERS

        • Lenny says:

          Connie, Our righteousness has surpassed that of the Pharisees and Scribes because Christ is our righteousness (1Pet.2:21-24) in whom there is no tithe. Our Lord is not connected to the tithe in any form or shape. He is associated with alms (Matt.25:31-46). Unfortunately, we only know one form of giving an yet there are so many other types as revealed by the Lord Himself in Matt. 25, Luke 14:12-14,15-23.

          @ Connie, when the woman caught in the act of adultery was brought to the Lord, He challenged the sinless to be the first to cast the stone at her. No one did. The Lord proved how people of all generations have succumbed to sin. He wwas the only one unaffected by sin and therefore was able to forgive.

          In His argument with the Jews about their connection to Abraham and God, the Lord told the Jews that they were the devil’s children and not God’s. They said that He (the Lord) had a devil. But again He challenged them: “who among you convinces me of sin?” No one dared. He fulfilled the law which men of all ages and generations failed to keep. He was in every way sinless. Therefore He was the perfect sacrifice, the Lamb of God that replaced the lambs of men. He was the perfect offering. But He was not the perfect tithe because he does not love or give in part. His love is complete. For that reason, the tithe will cannot be found in Him as it was found in the Israel and its Aaronic or Levitical priesthood. This is the way the Lord fulfilled the Lord and because of His victory over sin and death He will judge both the living and the dead. 

          Therefore , giving is not a small mater, it is close to the heart of of the one who has given us all things to enjoy, but not selfishly. 

  21. REV. RANDY AMMONS says:

    QUESTION  IF  A  PERSON  HAD  NO  MONEY  AT  ALL !  WOULD  THE  LORD  STILL  TELL   THAT   PERSON  THAT  HE  OWES   HIM  10 %   OF  NOTHING  ???   FOR  THE  WORD  SAYS   IN   HEBREWS  7 : 11 – 12 – 18 IN  VERSE 7:12  FOR  THE   PREISTHOOD   BEING  CHANGED,  THERE  IS   MADE   OF  NECESSITY   A   CHANGE  ALSO   OF  THE  LAW .  AND  AGAIN  IN  VERSE 7:18 FOR  THERE  IS  VERILY   (  TRULY )   A   DISANNULING   ( SETTING ASIDE )   OF   THE  COMMANDMENT  GOING   BEFORE   FOR   THE   WEAKNESS   AND   UNPROFITABLENESS    THEREOF .  SO  MY  QUESTION  UNTO  YOU  IF  ALL SCRIPTURE  IS  GIVEN  BY  THE  INSPIRATION  OF  GOD  ,  AND  IS  PROFITABLE   FOR   DOCTRINE ,  FOR  REPROOF  ,  FOR  CORRECTION  , FOR  INSTRUCTION  IN  RIGHTEOUSNESS   IN   2 TIMOTHY  3  :  16   AND   JESUS  SAID  IN  LUKE 16 :  1 6  THE   LAW   AND   THE  PROPHETS   WERE  (  WERE IN  EFFECT )   UNTIL   JOHN :  SINCE THAT  TIME THE  KINGDOM OF  GOD  IS  PREACHED ,  AND  EVERY  MAN  PRESSETH  INTO  IT .  AND   IN   MATTHEW   5  :  17 JESUS   SAID ,  THINK  NOT THAT  I  AM  COME  TO  DESTROY  THE  LAW  ,  OR  THE  PROPHETS :  I  AM   NOT  COME  TO  DESTROY  ,  BUT  TO  FULFILL  AND  AGAIN  IN  MARK  15 : 28 AND   THE   SCRIPTURE  WAS  FULFILLED , AND  IN  JOHN  19 :  28  AFTER  THIS  ,  JESUS  KNOWING  THAT  ALL  THINGS  WERE  NOW  ACCOMPLISHED  ,  THAT   THE  SCRIPTURE MIGHT  BE  FULFILLED ,  SAID  I  THIRST .  SO  THROUGH  HIS  DEATH  BURIAL  ,  AND  RESURECTION , SO WHY  ARE  THERE  PEOPLE  TRYING TO  DO  THE LETTER  OF  THE  LAW  WHEN  IT  IS  PLAIN  AS THE  NOSE  ON  YOUR  FACE  THAT  JESUS  DID IT  FOR  US , AND  IT   IS  WRITTEN   IN  THE   WORD  OF  GOD  FOR  ALL  TO  READ ,  AND  BY  THE  HOLY  SPIRIT  THAT  HE   GAVE  ME   I   WALK  BY  FAITH  IN  JESUS  CHRIST  AND  THE  SPIRIT  OF  GRACE ,  SO   IN   MATTHEW   22 : 36 – 40 AND  IN  MATTHEW  7  : 12 SO  IF  YOU  DO THIS THINGS  THEN  SHALL  YOU  KNOW  ME  SAYS THE  LORD. JOHN 8 : 31 IF  YOU  CONTINUE  IN  MY  WORD  AS  I  TOLD  YOU  THEN  YOU  ARE  YOU  MY  DISCIPLES INDEED  ,  AND  YOU  SHALL  KNOW  THE  TRUTH  AND  THE  TRUTH  SHALL  MAKE   YOU   FREE. SO   I  PRAY  THAT  THE CHILDREN  OF  PROMISE THAT  GOD  HAS  CHOSEN READ  THIS  !

  22. Melvin says:

    I have a good testimony about tithing. It has helped me so much. God is good and was good with me. I love God so much because he has blessed me so much for so long. I love to help God and I love him above the zenith of heavens and the denizens of the heavens because I love the Lord for he loved me first. God loves each one of us. But, God does not accept the sin because God does not accept any of us. God accept us through Jesus Christ. We are all sinners. God cannot accept us and do not accept us. We got to work harder. God has accepted me for so long. 

  23. J. R. says:

    (Lest anyone say this post of mine is off-topic, bear with me a bit, please.  When people who promote the REQIREMENT to tithe, OR be labelled, from the pulpit, as a “thief” and a stealer from God, I say see my final sentence, below:  Do we trust God (for the needs of the church finanaces), or do we trust a tax exemption? The tithe requirement is frequently pointed to as the only way the church can pay its bloated budget bills!)

    “At a time in which many of the Christian faith wonder what has happened (at breakneck speed) to our traditional, moral culture in recent years, one has to also ask the question, “What happened to the influence of the Church, which guided in large measure the founding of this Republic?” I can tell you what happened: the church sold its voice and influence for little more than “thirty pieces of silver.”
    Historically, the church in America has always been more or less tax exempt. But in 1954, changes were made to the US tax code which specified that “non-profit” organizations, which include the churches, would only remain tax exempt if they refrained from endorsing candidates for election. In accepting that exemption, the church allowed itself to be muzzled, and “the world” rejoiced. No longer could the church point out who were the most moral candidates for office, and who did not deserve the church’s endorsement. From that restriction evolved further self-limitations, resulting in the church nervously avoiding ALL comments on political matters, fearing that the precious exemption could be endangered. Eventually, those unchurched candidates got elected, and voted for laws and judges that diminished the positive influence of the Church in America. Remember, the church was not forced to accept these conditions—it was always free to reject the exemption, and speak freely on any issue. It still is. Unfortunately, the leadership believes the church will bring in more donations if the church remains tax exempt, and the almighty dollar remains paramount, ahead of the church’s influence in a lost world. Whatever happened to “God will provide for the faithful?”
    I have to ask, “What would Jesus think of this?” If Christians think He is happy seeing His Church hiding its light under a bushel, in exchange for a tax exemption, then I believe we are sadly mistaken. I cannot imagine this was His plan for America, but since 1954, don’t you think we have suffered mightily in this “bargain?” Do we trust God, or do we trust our tax exemption?”

    • Freewillgiver says:

      J.R. Thank you! Please Christians consider his words.   “without the exemption(In the U.S. )Groups of Christians can freely speak on any issue.” Wow but here is a big Challenge J.R. you questioned many leaders bravery, “Unfortunately, the leadership believes the church will bring in more donations if the church remains tax exempt, and the almighty dollar remains paramount, ahead of the church’s influence in a lost world.” Wow those were strong words plus  “Whatever happened to “God will provide for the faithful?”  WoW! you are so Skeptical!
      Friends on the web and J.R. 15 years ago My twin brother argued the same thing for many Years about the tax exempt status and when I worked as a youth leader I was offended at his logic.  He would sarcastically refer to organizational so called churches as Non Profit organizations Big Boxes.  I called myself a youth pastor then but even then I told the main minister called pastor that I apposed teaching tithing and I would tell my teens to buy Christian Music instead of giving money to me. What constitutes a division in the Body of Christ is up to Jesus I get blessed by them when they feed the poor and preach the gospel. I still will even give money to tithe churches but that is seldom.
      Today in 2011 I have joined my twin and become a radical. I now have begun to stop calling professional ministers Pastors. What constitutes a pastor is up to Jesus also. The New Testament speaks of elders but to me a pastor is a brave person. You described bravery as not needing a tithe from a fellow priest and not needing the tax exempt status. Yes I believe a Christian leader would need to be brave to do such a thing in America. Open your eyes church and become Skeptical of those with the money bags talking like Judas and the rest of the Disciples over the waste of the alabaster jar on Jesus! Here is Ancient skepticism..
      Let me steal from Martin Luther hundreds of years ago the great reformer wrote ” the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first. Therefore the treasures of the gospel are nets with which one formerly fished for men of wealth. ” Today money tithe collectors are still skeptical of all giving outside of their money bags. Evangelical Protestants our new un-Catholic indulgences are compulsory 10% of income money tithes!

  24. Lenny says:

    I know that commanded the children to tithe from the land produce. He made it very clear who the beneficiaries were and why. Can someone tell me with certainty who today’s recipients of the tithe are and why? In the New Testament the Lord has clearly pinpointed the recipients of the alms or of our giving, have we listened? Is there a difference between what God said and what Jesus says today? Just count the number of times Verily, verily I say unto you appears in the New Testament. Which one have we obeyed. We cannot claim to obey God when we have failed to obey His beloved Son,in whom He is well pleased, and to whom we God our Father has commanded us to listen “hear ye Him”. We promote the validity of the tithe because we have ignored Christ’s authority over His word.

    Even we who claim to give “cheerfully” as we purpose in our hearts are equally found wanting by the fact that we tend to ignore the true candidates of our giving. I am sure that many will agree that much of our giving is church directed with very little or no consideration for the poor. There will be shocks at the judgement seat of Christ. Many of us are guilty of giving to those who do not deserve our giving, leaving out the deserving candidates- Luke 11 and Isai.58, Matt. 25:31-44.

    Jesus, the Son of God and God incarnate demands so and commands so with a passion. Look at that list in Matt. 25:31-46 and many of us, keen givers in church, will be held accountable for holding high the system or people God the son has not told us to. If you really want to know Christ’s teaching on giving, check his selected recipients and not the ones we choose or those who will tell you to give to God. Yes we have eyes but we do not see and have ears but we do not hear. It has become to easy to listen to men than to hear Jesus speak with us. We sound knowledgeable indeed and yet foolish enough to quote and follow men’s teaching rather than Christ’s. Is He really the Lord you want Him to be? Read John Chapters 6 and 8 and see how the Lord argued with those who thought they were God’s children and yet failed to hear and obey Christ’s words.  Who Jesus is to you and me will determine the level of obedience.  Get a book: The Tithing Dilemma and the triumphs of Love. You will be surprised how much we have drifted away from the Lord’s intended way of giving. 

  25. Wallman says:

    Sam in the feedback commented on Matthew 23:23, in my opinion wrongly.  The Jews Jesus was refering to in that verse were being told they should have tithed because they were living under the old covenant and so were living under the law.  The old covenant remained in force untiel Jesus died on the cross.  After Jesus rose again the new covenant came into force and so the old written code was replace by the law of the Spirit.  Now our giving is something that has to be worked out prayerfully.

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