Many have asked me, “why tithing”? Of all the things to study and debate, why have I chosen tithing? Right off the bat, I don’t really know why the topic of tithing fires me up so much, so I found 5 good reasons to get fired up about the tithing debate.
The Love of Money is the Root of all Kinds of Evil
I almost said that money is the root of evil. I think I write that because my mind is always on autopilot. Money is not the root of all kinds of evil. The LOVE of money is. Sure, tithing is a good discipline to rid greed from those who are giving, but what about those who are receiving? There are many out there who are extorting God’s word for the gain of money. Many of you think about televangelists, but that’s just a few on TV. There are many more who desire more and more money to build more and more of their kingdom. Sure, many of them think that God gave them this vision to do this or that. Tithing allows them to build their own dreams and mandate others to pay for it. It’s not necessarily that they love money; they love what money can build.
Tithing in the New Testament Church is Against Scripture
Plain and simple and probably the most important factor that inspires my quest against tithing. I’m not going to spout out any scripture to prove tithing wrong. I’ve done plenty of that already in the past. I believe with all of my heart, that tithing is unbiblical. I do not have an ounce of doubt in my heart or mind about it. I wish i could take what i’ve learned and play it in a movie, or write it in a book. Words and pictures will not do justice to what the Spirit of God has enlightened in my heart.
Tithing Extorts the Poor and Excuses the Rich
I’ve seen churches investigate many members to figure out if they are tithing. If a rich man has been tithing, he is let go and forget about. But if a poor man is not tithing, and needs help or assistance in paying his bills, the church will first investigate his finances to see if he tithed. If he did, then they will check his spending records and make sure he isn’t spending too much on other things.
The church will try everything to get out of helping this poor man. They will show how he can spend less here and there, and yet still ask him to pay his tithes. They think no one has an excuse not to tithe. They don’t even realize that in scripture it was the poor who received tithes. What about the rich, why pick on them? They paid their tithes, didn’t they? Is a tithe really what God expects of them or is that what WE are expecting from them? Tithing is unjust and unfair.
Jesus Talked about Money More than any other Subject
Obviously, nothing has more of a hold on people than money does. If Jesus talked about it so much then it must be crucial. I’m not a financial guru. I flunked accounting in high school. But I do know that the flow of money going in and out of the church should be a much-discussed topic. Disagree? Don’t mark my words, look at Jesus’. He talked about it more than sin, heaven, and hell.
Giving statistics stated that religious organizations brought in 103 billion dollars last year. We have done very little with the 103 billion dollars and we complain that we could do more if only more tithed. It is calculated that we spend 85% of what we take in on ourselves. As a matter of fact, only 3% goes towards ministering to the needs of the unsaved. No wonder the world thinks the Church is greedy. It’s not because we are constantly asking for money. it’s because we keep it all to ourselves.
This is besides the point. How the Church receives its funds is important. If tithing is in place then people are not free to give to other places that God is leading them to give. Instead, people are handcuffed to an organization that spends more and more on themselves.
Tithing Challenges me to Study God’s Word
I will admit, I’m not the encourager or exalter in the group. I like to dissect things with my mind and find solutions to fix the problems. If i see a problem I will speak up. I won’t if everything is going right, I just expect it to. I’m very opinionated, and debates really fuel my fire. I love them. Am I contentious? Sometimes, yes. I try to work on that. I don’t like to pick fights for no reason. But I love a good challenge. There is nothing biblically wrong with wanting to debate God’s word. Your motives must be pure, and you have to be extra careful about how your attitude shows Christ.
Everyone has their methods to help them get fired about God. For some, it’s to look for those who need emotional help. Others, it’s to look for those who need some teaching. It’s all different for all of us. We are all wired different ways. I’d like to say that the greatest Christian is the one who is most balanced, but more than likely that Christian doesn’t fit in many places. We are different members with different things that drive our motivation. If we are the hands, then doing things with our hands motivates us. If we are the head, then using our thinking or leadership skills motivates us. We are all driven by different things.
So many People are Believing the Wrong Thing
This just hurts to see the number of people who are believing the wrong thing. I’m on a quest to help as many as I can to see the truth in God’s Word. If there was no one to convince, then I probably wouldn’t get into tithing. But it’s a challenge for me, and there are many who need help and do not know the truth. At one time I didn’t know the truth. You can read about it in my tithing testimony. It is great to hear testimonies from those who have been freed by the teachings of God’s word about tithing. I do not want to diminish the fact of giving sacrificially, but at the same time, people are locked up in chains and need to be freed from the tithing mandate first in order to truly understand sacrificial giving.
Gwaine says
Hi Jared,
It’s been quite some hours I replied to your concerns above, although it hasn’t appeared.
Many blessings.
Gwaine.
Russell Earl Kelly says
Gwaine
I just spent a while reading the blog. Gwaine spends most of his time trying to twist Jared’s words and make him say something else.
Either engage me on our Tithing-Study blog and make me look stupid in front of everybody —or else we can begn afresh here. I am not afraid to go one-on-one with anybody. I would love to hear you refute my 140 questions one at a time.
How can you say that I cannot “sustain arguments when engaged”? (post 11) That has never happened.
I’m calling your bluff.
First point in my essay: Please tell me where this is wrong. Why is not this good enough fot the church?
Christians are commanded to give freely, sacrificially, generously, regularly, joyfully and with the motivation of love for God and man. The following New Covenant free-will principles are found in Second Corinthians, chapters 8 and 9: (1) Giving is a “grace.” These chapters use the Greek word for “grace” eight times in reference to helping poor saints. (2) Give yourself to God first (8:5). (3) Give yourself to knowing God’s will (8:5). (4) Give in response to Christ’s gift (8:9; 9:15). (5) Give out of a sincere desire (8:8, 10, 12; 9:7). (6) Do not give because of any commandment (8:8, 10; 9:7). (7) Give beyond your ability (8:3, 11-12). (8) Give to produce equality. This means that those who have more should give more in order to make up for the inability of those who cannot afford to give as much (8:12-14). (9) Give joyfully (8:2). (10) Give because you are growing spiritually (8:3-4, 7). (11) Give because you want to continue growing spiritually (9:8, 10-11). (12) Give because you are hearing the gospel preached (9:13).
Russ Kelly
freewillgiver says
Thank you Friend Gwaine
I greatly enjoy your willingness to debate but I just want more clarity on your position. Jesus meant for you to post. You love to sharpen Iron I can tell. Gwaine you seem outside the status quo concerning Christian tithing. You must recognize that your formula for tithing sounds a lot like free will giving. Most evangelical churches of today teach “ten percent of all Christian money belongs to the local church” this is what I mean by the 10% money tithe doctrine is this teaching of most churches extreme in your opinion Gwaine? Is the status quo Christian money tithe doctrine extreme. Please define extreme.
“Ten percent of all Christian money belongs to the local church”
I am glad you have received no money tithe funds so your hands are very clean. Now could you preach the above doctrine that most evangelical churches preach? If you cannot then you are closer to us than to them. I bet You would get kicked out of many churches if you watered down the above definition of money tithe In front of the whole congregation. Have I misstated what most evangelical churches teach about tithes?
“ten percent of all Christian money belongs to the local church” Now what part of that statement is extreme? If any part of that statement is extreme then you have at major odds with most evangelical churches concerning tithing.
Am I wrong that most evangelical churches preach this? If you disagree with most churches teaching on the money tithe doctrine then you are closer to an anti tether than a pro tether. Are you status quo or anti- status quo? You must be closer to one than the other. Please respond. Remember if one believes this one will pay this money tithe bill first and put ones kids in Christian private school second because in this doctrine it is only to the local church.
Please name the worst 3 things about tithers and the three worst 3 things about anti-tithers. Please respond at your leisure because I know you have ministry, work, and family but please respond. I am reading all of your post and examining scripture. That Exodus scripture is not what I would call a tithe the one shekel for all but your definition of tithes seems to cover many offerings. Since most evangelical pastors preach “ten percent of all Christian money belongs to the local church” I don’t know how much of what you say is relevant. The standard doctrine is the main point. If you disagree with what most churches teach you are closer to us because you are outside of the status quo and very close to our positions with different names. I am waiting for your answers and I will respond more later friend Gwaine.
Gwaine says
Hi Dr. Russell,
Thank you for your reply and offer for a debate. I was actually looking forward to some engagement someday in the future, and pray the Lord’s grace that would come, if He wills.
As to your 140 questions, I’ve offered Jared that could also be easily done here or anywhere else he may invite me to do so, otherwise I would not like to be tedious to him by littering his blog.
However, it’s not my style to make anyone look “stupid”, whatever the case – unless that is the assumed premise they take to engaging in dialogue on issues like this. Yet, I’m sure that Jared could stand up for his own persuasions; so your allegation that I was twisting his words is quite an immature reaction on your part.
Please don’t take it personal, as I’m not the only person who has engaged your thoughts and challenged some of your unsustained interpretations and ideas. I could show a few links where others have done so in fewer words than I could have managed. Yet, the occasion referred to in my reply #11 has been often repeated; and no, I wasn’t bluffing: ( http://www.christianpf.com/obeying-god/comment-page-1/#comment-9603 ).
First, as I’m neither pro-tithing nor anti-tithing, I’ve repeatedly stated that most of the arguments people offer for their positions on either side are polarised/strained and unhealthy. There is no need for anyone to employ extraneous ideas for their arguments just because they have preconceived persuasions on this subject – and it would not be in anyone’s best interests to make themselves the victims of such misplaced disceptation. Therefore, before one could argue either ways for what is “right” or “wrong”, their basic premise(s) and interpretations would have to be carefully considered, rather than arrive at any persuasions from demagoguery.
These ideas have been summarily addressed in the other blog where I called your attention to the point that: “This type of argument is ignoring the very fact that such qualifiers are not perculiar to the NT alone, but in very fact expressed in so many places in the OT as well!“. You then followed through with this acknowledgement thereto:
Gwaine says
Dear freewillgiver,
My many thanks for your penultimate reply, as well for your gracious friendship. I think most of your latest concerns have already been addressed; but as ever, I’d be glad to reconsider them.
True, while being outside the status quo, it’s important that this statement is qualified. I’m not “closer” to any camp (“pro” or “anti”), as some would imagine. As repeated often, we do not want to make ourselves the victims of other people’s arguments (see Proverbs 18:13).
Yet, it is for this reason that I would refrain from highlighting 3 worst things about either ‘pro-‘ or ‘anti-‘ tithers. My aim is not to deepen the divide or applaud the scars suffered by our brethren on either side; rather, I’d be looking for ways to promote healing of wounds by engaging in a balanced understanding of whatever is of interest to everyone on this subject.
However, I also recognize the extremity in assertions like: “Ten percent of all Christian money belongs to the local church”. I’m not aware how many churches belong to the list of “Most evangelical churches” making such a strained assertion. Yet, I’ll offer simply by reminder that from the few cases considered in my observations, “Some local churches that preach about tithing are not as legalistic as many anti-tithers assume; yet, these local churches understandably use the tithing to help their ministries.”
What then do I mean by being extreme, strained or polarised? In few words, it is being unhealthily assertive.
We sometimes become unhealthily assertive especially when employing unbalanced (and in some cases ‘false’) ideas to establish “truth”, whatever our persuasions on the subject of tithing or any other topic.
For example, if I were an anti-tither, it would not matter to me whatever points of reference would lead to my conclusions; and the same thing would be true if the reverse (pro-tither) was the case. Using these ill-conceived and unjustified arguments to “force” people one way or another is unhealthy. It’s for this reason that I observed: “it is equally immoral to argue for a “NT command” under the disguised language of “Spirit-led giving” to PRESSURE believers to stop tithing!”
So, whether we’re trying to “FORCE” people to tithe or to stop tithing; or otherwise trying to “DRAGOON” anyone to “freewill, Spirit-led giving”, both attitudes are unhealthy. We cannot “force” anyone to do anything spiritual, just as it would be unspiritual to “FORCE” a “commandment” (NT or OT) on people. Either way, we could at best help them understand the ways of the Lord so they could be persuaded to make informed decisions.
Consequently, in our passion to stimulate believers into enjoying this ministry of giving, we should by all means eschew unhealthy arguments, interpretations and attitudes, while focusing on the real problems in money matters. If people are abusing the gifts and ministries in the Church, would stopping tithes eliminate those abuses? No – because we know for a fact that financial scandals assume a dimension far exceeding the arguments only about tithing!
When people ask the question: “Did the law of moses EVER command a money tithe or a tithe of money?”, they often are largely UNAWARE of the scripture that answers that question. So, they just take it for granted that just because some anti-tither asserts the opposite, it “must” be so. That was why I offered a clear answer ‘yes’ to help you study the Word of God for yourself, instead of making the mistakes of others who raise such queries to deny the point.
Now, some people deny that Exodus text as pointing to a tithe, and that is because they have long nested the traditional idea of “10%” in their minds every time the word ‘tithe’ is mentioned. Yet, not many anti-tithers are careful to point out that tithes are not defined as ONLY “10%” in Scripture.
However, there are so many examples of people who tithe a certain (undisclosed) amount to the Lord personally – not because it was “REQUIRED” of them, nor because they legally apply a “10%” benchmark to the concept of their tithes; but, among other things, it’s more because of their own commitment to stewardship in the ministry of their local churches.
On the other hand, if so many churches in our various localities are engaging in something without a proper understanding, there’s bound to be abuses and sad outcomes. When closely examined, there are other reasons for these abuses. Unfortunately, some people have hastily sought to blame their problems on tithes – and they’re happy to swallow anything that is “anti-tithing”.
What would be relevant is to present a balanced understanding of the term as occurs in Scripture, so that misunderstandings and unnecesary arguments are minimized. It is not a question of trying to “stop” one thing entirely in order to “force” another thing upon them; but rather to invite an enabling atmosphere that is beneficial to the Church.
Blessings.
freewillgiver says
Friend Gwaine
Lets get to know your stance so we might be enlightened. What is the name of your giving position or can it be labled? I know you probably support some tithe churches mabey, but I don’t know which kind. You say we are wrong on some points but not exactly what you belive to be optimum or best.
Please state your opinion of good tithe doctrine. Ours is one sentence. Give as Jesus commands you Christians are not obligated to a certain fixed percentage or fixed place of free will giving, but they give where and what Jesus places on their hearts.
What is good tithing doctrine or what is bad tithing doctrine and where do most churches stand? You are so elusive but yet you critique others. Where is your disclosure? What kind of Church do you go to and do you hold there doctrines on tithing? What denomination or famous person holds your views on tithing? Where do you deviate from most Churches tithe doctrines? The position of unbiased is so fuzzy. Sombody agrees with you, some group aggrees with you so pleas state it. Folks can debate better when your positions become more solid than jello.
I guess a tithe equals any form of offering in your view. So that makes you out of step with most of them would you agree?
Most force is in the hands of Large organizations telling folks they are in sin would you agree? Most Anti-tithers are not the ones getting paid to say that folks are in sin if they don’t give us money.
Would you ever preach 10% of all christian money belongs to the local church or a Christian is in sin? I guess you would not, I am not fully sure, but I guess that we are in agreement that the traditional doctrines about tithes preached in a large number of evangelical churches is incorrect about moneytithe or sin to the local church? If they are wrong How could they temper this incorrect doctrine?
Gwaine you stated that only some evangelical local churches are not as leagalistic as we anti tithers asume. Are you admitting that most have the money tithe to the local church or you are in sin doctrine? Or do most churches teach somthing less leagalistic than that?
I wish you would quantify your opinins more.your responces are like herding cats to understand without better than, worse than, more than less than qualifacations. Most churches clearly believe that tithes are ten percent of Christian income do you agree? So what constitutes a “non extreme” plan of stewadship conserining tithing in your opinion?
I know most churches tithe doctrine has this general ring ” all christians must give 10% to the local church or a Christian is in sin.” If you don’t agree with this you are definitly out of step with most evangelical churches would you agree?
Well I am just trying to find where you agree with us anti-tithers about the tithe abuses wich are commonplace.
The simple fact that you say that tithes are not 10% puts you out of step with traditions. Do you think you could preach your views in most evangelical churches and they would be comfortable? If you could then you are probably status quo.
Russell Earl Kelly says
Gwaine
1. How does my admission that many of the freewill giving principles are also found in the OT somehow prove that I am wrong about tithing? You make no sense. Freewill giving preceded tithing and built the sanctuary in Exodus. To me, that proves that the needs of God’s program can be fully met with freewill giving principles. Do you agree?
2. Do you not think that “Do not give by any commandment” might mean “do not give a set percentage because of the tithe commandment”? You are guilty of twisting my intent. My point is that freewill giving has been REPEATED in terms of grace after Calvary to the NT church and is, therefore, legitimate whereas tithing has NOT been REPEATED to the church after Calvary. That is a consistent hermeneutic. What is yours? What is wrong with that logic? You have totally ignored my hermeneutic yet you provide none of your own.
3. Tell us what you really think yourself so we can have a chance to critique your own solutions.
Gwaine
1. How does my admission that many of the freewill giving principles are also found in the OT somehow prove that I am wrong about tithing? You make no sense. Freewill giving preceded tithing and built the sanctuary in Exodus. To me, that proves that the needs of God’s program can be fully met with freewill giving principles. Do you agree?
2. Do you not think that “Do not give by any commandment” might mean “do not give a set percentage because of the tithe commandment”? You are guilty of twisting my intent. My point is that freewill giving has been REPEATED in terms of grace after Calvary to the NT church and is, therefore, legitimate whereas tithing has NOT been REPEATED to the church after Calvary. That is a consistent hermeneutic. What is yours? What is wrong with that logic? You have totally ignored my hermeneutic yet you provide none of your own.
3. Tell us what you really think yourself so we can have a chance to critique your own solutions.
Russell Earl Kelly says
Gwaine
i.e. freewillgiver’s comments
Pardon me for saying so, but you take forever to say little or nothing. Get to the point please. You sound like some moderate in the middle of the battle-field who does not want either side to win or lose.
Truth is truth and error is error. There is no grey in the area of defining the tithe.
4. I have given 16 texts which define the contents of the tithe as only food from inside Israel.
Where are your texts showing that my conclusion is wrong?.
5. I have proven that, although money was common in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was not included in the biblical definition of the tithe.
Where is your biblical proof that my conclusion is wrong?
6. There is no such thing as your “balanced” definition which allows tithes to be both “only food from inside Israel” and also “a tenth of one’s income.” Get off the fence and argue either one position the other.
Either you have no conviction at all in this matter and should not even be discussing it with us, or else you are pressing your own agenda as we are. Which is it?
No long speech —-biblical arguments please
Marty says
Gwaine,
I do understand, for the most part, your stance on tithing. However, I also understand that some people will always let you down and I don’t blame my pastor for that. On the other hand, the reason I said he was a hypocrite is because he preached continually on the tithe being something I must do, or else! But, when I told him the reason, he contradicted everything he was preaching against; that’s why I called him a hypocrite. I was not because he let me down that I called him a hypocrite; people have let me down my whole life. I do understand that I have been manipulated and I have forgiven him of that.
Don’t get me wrong, it was not just one bill but it was multiple bills and thousands of dollars that I was behind on. I’m not blaming anyone for anything. However, in contrast to a commanded tithe, I believe we should give freely with purpose and give to the poor. If I have it and can afford it; as I have been blessed, I can bless others and be a blessing to them. I do believe in giving with a cheerful heart but not necessarily under pressure or condemnation if I do or do not give 5%, 10%, etc.
I understand that grace is not a law, per say. I was using the word “law” of the sense of “a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority;” in this case the controlling authority is God Himself (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/law). I was not using the “Law of Grace” as if it were an established “Law” in the Bible (like, Thou shalt not steal) or a foundational doctrine of the church.
Christians are not “commanded” to give anything. We are only commanded to love God with everything that we are, love our neighbors and each other. However, we are “encouraged” to give and if you have Jesus in you, you want to give anyway! I’m not talking about paying tithes, but giving to the poor and those in need (widows, orphans, the poor). There is not one example in the NT about paying tithes or the rebuke of a person not paying tithes. However, we are to give.
Concerning a few guidelines for giving, Jesus taught in Matthew 6:1-4 saying, “Take care! Don’t do your good deeds publicly, to be admired, because then you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven. 2 When you give a gift to someone in need, don’t shout about it as the hypocrites do—blowing trumpets in the synagogues and streets to call attention to their acts of charity! I assure you, they have received all the reward they will ever get. 3 But when you give to someone, don’t tell your left hand what your right hand is doing. 4 Give your gifts in secret, and your Father, who knows all secrets, will reward you (NLT).”
Paul gave us some more great advice about freely giving to those in need when he wrote to the church in Corinth saying, “Now about the money being collected for the Christians in Jerusalem: You should follow the same procedures I gave to the churches in Galatia. 2 On every Lord’s Day, each of you should put aside some amount of money in relation to what you have earned and save it for this offering (1 Corinthians 16:1-2, NLT).”
2 Corinthians 8:11-15 “Give whatever you can according to what you have. If you are really eager to give, it isn’t important how much you are able to give. God wants you to give what you have, not what you don’t have. 13 Of course, I don’t mean you should give so much that you suffer from having too little. I only mean that there should be some equality. 14 Right now you have plenty and can help them. Then at some other time they can share with you when you need it. In this way, everyone’s needs will be met. 15 Do you remember what the Scriptures say about this? “Those who gathered a lot had nothing left over, and those who gathered only a little had enough (NLT).”
2 Corinthians 9:6-8 “Remember this—a farmer who plants only a few seeds will get a small crop. But the one who plants generously will get a generous crop. 7 You must each make up your own mind as to how much you should give. Don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. For God loves the person who gives cheerfully. 8 And God will generously provide all you need. Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with others (NLT).”
2 Corinthians 9:10-14 “For God is the one who gives seed to the farmer and then bread to eat. In the same way, he will give you many opportunities to do good, and he will produce a great harvest of generosity in you. 11 Yes, you will be enriched so that you can give even more generously. And when we take your gifts to those who need them, they will break out in thanksgiving to God. 12 So two good things will happen—the needs of the Christians in Jerusalem will be met, and they will joyfully express their thanksgiving to God. 13 You will be glorifying God through your generous gifts. For your generosity to them will prove that you are obedient to the Good News of Christ. 14 And they will pray for you with deep affection because of the wonderful grace of God shown through you (NLT).”
I hope this clears a few things up.
I nothing but love for all my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus,
Marty
Gwaine says
Hello Russell,
A few notes to your penultimate remarks:
I’ve not been pressing any personal agenda; and if you’re seeking simply that I’m not welcome to discuss with the “anti-tithing camp”, please simply say so. I’ve always been respectful with those being addressed on this blog, and Jared would bear me witness on that as to my disinclination to litter his blog.
Where queries have been advanced, I’ve also proffered answers with pointers to Scripture; so no one’s going to allege otherwise, unless they are just being deliberately dishonest. My convictions have been set forth repeatedly – and it’s okay if typically by default you guys would just ignore them and pretend I never said anything.
Please don’t patronise me by evading the point about your concerns for my reply #11 for which you asserted: “this has never happened”, to which I replied: “Yet, the occasion referred to in my reply #11 has been often repeated; and no, I wasn’t bluffing: ( http://www.christianpf.com/obeying-god/comment-page-1/#comment-9603 ).” So, what has “never happened”? I haven’t seen how you made any remark about that point; instead you want to excuse it by waving your “admission” to what I called your attention to.
However, I directly pointed out to you on the other blog that “freewill” is not perculiar to just Christian giving in the NT – it was there in the OT as well even under the Law! There was nothing “new” about it, and one would have expected you to have made that point distinctly rather than use it as a hallmark of “New Covenant Giving Principles” in contradistinction to tithing. If the “freewill” preceded tithing, what was “new” about it to have become the “NEW covenant” principle? Why make it particularly a matter of the “NEW covenant” as if there was anything “new” about it?
I’m not in a law court, so please hold your high horse of hastily pronouncing “guilty” on people simply because you can’t agree with them. If you’ve anything sensible to say, do so as simply.
In all my discussions anywhere and on any blog, I’ve made my position clear that I’m not hooting for any particular percentage or benchmark. If you haven’t seen that on this page, then I seriously doubt you spent time reading through as you earlier claimed (reply #42). Yet, you cannot make a sweeping statement and then contradict yourself within the same breath. My point is simple: if someone detests giving by “any commandment”, what does it matter whether that “commandment” appears in the OT or NT? Go back and look up the meaning of the word “REPEATED” and see if you make any sense at all. I didn’t ignore your hermeneutics, and I’m not the only person on the net who has pointed out a few things about other strained arguments and interpretations you’ve made.
Lol, dear sir, I ALREADY have made my point consistently and repeatedly. Did you really “spend time” reading through this page or just jumped on the reactionary to engage me? Others have seen it, you claimed you spent time reading through the blog – and for all that, you missed it?
Thank you all the same for your thoughts. I do hope we can discuss simply in future correspondence without the hubris you display.
Gwaine says
Hi freewillgiver,
You seem to be repeating yourself over and over without yet having said anything tangible. I’m sorry to observe this, but I could well repeat myself on them if you want me to do so – otherwise, I would be enthused if you could simply fine-tune your problems.
My position – please see the following:
[my reply #7] – |“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; … And God is able to make all grace abound toward you” [2 Cor. 9:7-8].|
[my reply #9] – |Well, this may come as a surprise, but I’m neither “for” nor “against” tithing. I think Christians should be allowed the freedom in the principle found in 2 Cor. 9:7, quoted earlier.|
[my reply #22] – |Nothing has shifted from my position, and again I would repeat it here: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10?) – DO AS YOU MAY!”|
[my reply #22] – |As in my challenge to Marty, here again: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10?) – DO AS YOU MAY!” Does that sound like I set a “BENCHMARK” anywhere? In matters like this, let everyone be “fully persuaded in his own mind” (Rom. 14:5 and 2 Cor. 9:7-8).|
I’ve REPEATED these matters several times over; so what is it you’re alleging about my being elusive?
See the repeated answers above. I’m not elusive, and stated my position clearly as well discussed from that point. I don’t know why you guys are too much in a haste to be accusative, but that is not a healthy attitude to dialogue. If you do not agree with people, why the accusations – does that help towards a better understanding of the subject being discussed? You’re so keen to “label” folks positionally as if that answers your worry – sorry, I’m not partisan, and I already shared why I refuse to be partisan in one camp or the other in my reply #45.
No, freewillgiver – a tithe does not equal ANY form of offering in my view, and the references I gave demonstrated those that point out the case. If you suppose I have made other forms of offering to be the same with tithes, please point them out, thank you.
Between being “in sin” and “going to hell”, which sounds more aweful to you? Would you not agree that there are anti-tithers (as well pro-tithers) who have preached that very same thing? Do you want me to remind you with the links? If an anti-tither and pro-tither are both preaching the same cacophony and they both believe they are “correct”, where do you expect me to be between the two labels?
“Giving money” is not the problem – nor is getting paid. One may choose to not be paid, another may depend on that for his ministry as called of the Lord. If you don’t want to receive money by any means, why trouble someone else on that? Large organizations may appeal for money, would it shock you that others that don’t appeal for “tithes” are in bigger financial scandal than you may know?
Please honestly tell me that you completely ignored what I shared about my persuasions. Please tell me so – then I would understand why you are so bent on repeating yourself on issues I already addressed and vacantly accusing me of being so elusive.
Did you miss this, or simply ignored it [#45] –
‘However, I also recognize the extremity in assertions like: “Ten percent of all Christian money belongs to the local church”. I’m not aware how many churches belong to the list of “Most evangelical churches” making such a strained assertion. Yet, I’ll offer simply by reminder that from the few cases considered in my observations, “Some local churches that preach about tithing are not as legalistic as many anti-tithers assume; yet, these local churches understandably use the tithing to help their ministries.”’
If you’re asking me to “quantify” my opinions on this issue, let me REPEAT:
[my reply #7] – |“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; … And God is able to make all grace abound toward you” [2 Cor. 9:7-8].|
[my reply #9] – |Well, this may come as a surprise, but I’m neither “for” nor “against” tithing. I think Christians should be allowed the freedom in the principle found in 2 Cor. 9:7, quoted earlier.|
[my reply #22] – |Nothing has shifted from my position, and again I would repeat it here: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10?) – DO AS YOU MAY!”|
[my reply #22] – |As in my challenge to Marty, here again: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10?) – DO AS YOU MAY!” Does that sound like I set a “BENCHMARK” anywhere? In matters like this, let everyone be “fully persuaded in his own mind” (Rom. 14:5 and 2 Cor. 9:7-8).|
I disagree with your listing of “most evnagelical churches” – don’t make “most” of everyone guilty by association just because you’re disenchanted with a subject.
Indeed, I’m not inclined with the “traditional” status quo of either camp – whether what “most” anti-tithers often assert or what some pro-tithers say. I don’t have to take anyone’s label upon myself when they are being dubious – most of these people are forever screaming “truth is truth and error is error”, but they will never be as calm to see their own error in a single matter!
Regards.
Gwaine says
Dear Marty,
Thank you for making some more sense this time around. In the same manner I could have poured texts upon texts upon texts to buttress my position and argue out a lot of other issues; but would that change anything from what I have succintly stated earlier?
You see, the problem is not so much the percentages people argue against – that is just so silly, and that’s why I objected to the idea of blaming our problems on a certain percentage of what we give. Either way, if anyone feels comfortable giving “anything” or “nothing” at all, let them “DO AS THEY MAY” and be thankful for it. The grounds for the various blames people often offered are just tenuous and inconsistent, and we hear people within the same camp saying contradictory things. An example:
Okay, that’s your persuasion; but if I should point out that another anti-tither argues that Christians are supposed to give by a “NT commandment”, what would you say?
As before, I’m willing to let people speak for themselves and hold whatever views that appeal to them – in this case, it’s of no interest to me to take you up on that quote in direct contrast to what other anti-tithers have argued. Nor am I interested in any labels that people want to give themselves. We often find these kinds of parley where people in the same camp are saying directly contradictory things – the one says we should give by a “NT command”, the other argues we are not “commanded” to give anything. Are both of them saying the same things?
This was why I have often appealed that people should be willing to listen rather than argue by demagoguery. Sadly, the only thing it seems more people are interested in doing these days is labelling and accusing one another as to who’s on their side as against others.
Good for us all to note. Precisely why I noted earlier about my outlook:
Many blessings.
Russell Earl Kelly says
R: Why do you say “penultimate” when you mean “previous”? Is it an attempt to sound intelligent because you know a Greek word?
G: I’ve not been pressing any personal agenda; and if you’re seeking simply that I’m not welcome to discuss with the “anti-tithing camp”, please simply say so.
R: If you have no personal agenda, then why are you here? It sounds like you are merely arguing for the sake of arguing.
G: My convictions have been set forth repeatedly.
R: I have just read your past post to freewillgiver and see about 20 repetitions that you have no dog in this fight. We are all asking you to take a position.
G: … you guys would just ignore them and pretend I never said anything.
R: You write a lot and never say anything of substance.
G: No, I wasn’t bluffing.
R: How can you bluff when you have no cards in your hand to argue either direction?
G: If the “freewill” preceded tithing, what was “new” about it to have become the “NEW covenant” principle? Why make it particularly a matter of the “NEW covenant” as if there was anything “new” about it?
R: In the NT freewill giving is founded on the fact that NT givers are born again and are motivated by the Holy Spirit to love lost souls. While there are many things similar to OT giving, the motive has changed drastically.
Now, what in the world does that have to do with your opposition (excuse me, bantering) about tithing? It is irrelevant to the beginning points of the blog.
G: In all my discussions anywhere and on any blog, I’ve made my position clear that I’m not hooting for any particular percentage or benchmark.
R: What are you trying to do then? Are you trying to change our minds? What is the purpose for engaging us in a discussion that has no ultimate goal?
G: My point is simple: if someone detests giving by “any commandment”, what does it matter whether that “commandment” appears in the OT or NT?
R: Easy. For 8 years nobody has tried to parse words like you do. The statement in 2 Cor 9:7 that “giving is not by commandment” means that God has not commanded us to give a certain amount. The context implies that Paul was commanding freewill giving.
Our point is that the NT does not command tithing. Do you agree or disagree? Why don’t you answer that question? Why is it so hard to answer?
G: I’m not the only person on the net who has pointed out a few things about other strained arguments and interpretations you’ve made.
R: Except for my discussion of Melchizedek and El Elyon most have nothing to say to me personally. And my conclusions can be reached without discussing Melchizedek or El Elyon. I wanted to delete that section in the book but friends convinced me to leave it in.
Gk: Lol, dear sir, I ALREADY have made my point consistently and repeatedly.
R: I have stopped and read all of your arguments again. Since you are not “passive” and are not taking sides, where are your arguments against tithing?
Why do you not present texts to back up your arguments? I find you a fake who only want to practice your debate skills.
I await your reply to my 16 texts and definition of the word “tithe.” Let’s put some meat on the subject and get specific.
Jared Brian says
I had to update some things on this blog, so some of you might not have been receiving an email when someone responded. Might want to check the last few comments, to make sure that you have not missed something.
– jared
freewillgiver says
Marty I dont think you or anyone on this site understands Gwains arguments. Gwaine are you alone in your believes about tithes? Why did Jesus direct you to this site and to other sites against tithes. We Know our purposes in Jesus for posting what is your mission and Where do you come from. Not physically, but what group do you trust.
If we are friends in Jesus name then tell us where your belifs come from and how they have evolved. Please tell us anyone else or group that belives like you do.
We dont know what kind of Church you go to or if anyone believes like you do about money tithes. Please tell us.
“10% of all Christian money belongs to the local church”
This is what I say constutes the money tithe doctrine. How do you deviate from this do you oppose this? I hear your critisims of Anti tithes but your critisims of the staus quo standard money tithe doctrine are faint and unintelligible. You are defininly anti- anti-tithers but I have heard little to zero pro tither critisims. Demonstrate your ballance if you have a reason. What is your purpose. Do you want to convert us we definitly want to convert you. Please answer and tell us how you arrived at these positions. What was your evolution to get where you are now in thoughts on tithing? Can we get a little context Gwiaine you are a mystery?
I could preach my moneytithe message I defined above in Almost Every major demonmination evangelical and get cheers from thier pastors. I certanly would not get much opposition if I said it 30x in a message. “The Money tithes equal 10% of all christian money, and they belong to the local church” Would you agree?
The money tithe docrtine might be more prevalent than Dispensationalism. I will be spacific. The Assemblies of God, The Southern Babtist, the PCA and every non-liberal Presbyterian church. The Churches of Christ are anti-tithe. Penicostals outside of the AG are mostly word of faith so they believe in a hyper form of the money tithe doctrine. Why question that some evangelicals might not be so dogmatic without acknoledging that most denominations and churches preach exactly what I stated or they would not oppose exactly my money tithe doctrine formula.
Gwain who are you? How did you arrive at your opinions? Do you really like us and want to see more of Jesus in us or are you just here to argue.
Gwaine says
@Russell,
It’s obvious I wasn’t debating any Greek words; and by ‘penultimate’ I was pointing to your last two replies (#47 & #48, hence ‘penultimate remarks’), as is clear by my combining both in a single reply in mine [#50]. Was that too challenging to understand that you had to make it an issue at all?
I wasn’t aware that this blog was meant for those who have personal agenda to drive; nor have I been arguing for the sake of doing so. If this blog is about the personal agenda of your camp, all you needed was say so and I’d be done. But thanks for letting me know.
I don’t engage in fights, if that’s what you’re about. What is it about my position that confuses you – could you kindly share?
I’ve heard that lazy quip many times over – it’s typically the device of those who pretend they can read but are too challenged to do so.
What’s the correlation between “I wasn’t bluffing” and “how can you bluff”? Do you make sense to yourself at all?
Since “freewill” preceded the “NEW covenant”, you should not be misleading your readers to thinking it is peculiar to the “NEW covenant” – there’s nothing “NEW” about it. That was what I called your attention to in the other blog – and that was what you raised as regards my reply #11 this page and hooted “that has never happened”.
Appealing to misleading ideas to harangue others was unhealthy – that was what my rejoinder in the other blog was addressing. The “613 commandments” that you had no clue about was one of the points of reference you several times employed in your arguments, and that was one of the first things I addressed – go remind yourself by taking a peek.
If you’ve already made up your mind that discussing with you has no ultimate goal, it’s no wonder why you’re mewling rather than reasoning. The only thing to be regretted was expecting a mature discourse from you.
You’re being inconsistent here in your classic eisegesis, lol. Let’s be simple for your sake: the statement “giving is not by commandment” does not appear in 2 Cor. 9:7; and in context when one checks the verse, Paul was not “commanding” but rather exhorting the saints – that verse is not an ‘imperative’. This is clearly seen when we compare it with 2 Cor. 8:7 & 8 where he also speaks on giving – immediately after urging them to “abound in this grace also” he declared: “I speak not by commandment…”
The funny thing about your eisegesis is that you’re contradicting yourself. First, in the above quote you asserted vacantly that Paul was “commanding” freewill giving; yet on the same verse you argued the direct opposite in your essay on your website – “(6) DO NOT give because of ANY COMMANDMENT (8:8, 10; 9:7)” (see under caption ‘CHRISTIAN GIVING PRINCIPLES’; reposted in reply #42 this page). Has anyone noticed that while you’re quoting “2 Cor. 9:7” here and plastering it with a “command”, you quoted the same “2 Cor. 9:7” to argue the direct opposite?!? It appears you’ve been speaking from both sides of your mouth for all those “8 years”, unsure of your inconsistency, no?
Obviously, even after pretending to have read ALL my arguments again, you didn’t see it! I already answered – see my reply #35:
“Yet, I often caution my friends that (as far as I know), the NT epistles do not “command” tithes; although I acknowledge the fact they are correct that no single verse condemns tithes in the “BIBLE” – not one!”
You give me serious grounds to doubt your vacant assertions. Are you not the same person who insisted you “spent a while reading the blog” (#42)? You even claimed you “stopped and read ALL” of my arguments ‘AGAIN’ (# 53). Your otiose and pretentious claims are typical of your hauteur, so nothing new there.
Anyone can reach any conclusions including “sending people to hell” without discussing Melchizedek and El Elyon. However, just incase you missed it by default, I’ve noted that “what would be more helpful, perhaps, is that discussants try and be honest, thoughtful, and avoid extremes” (mine, #9); and again, ‘on either side I deeply resent dishonest and hypocritical statements or ideas used as a bastion for arguing “truth”’ (#11).
I very much doubt you’ve read ‘ALL’ my arguments ‘AGAIN’ – see as noted above for your pretentious claim.
I’m sure you couldn’t resist the urge to be pejorative, which is typical of folks who twaddle. You can keep making these prevarications to calm your nerves, but the verses I quoted are still there when you’re ready to consider them.
Considering you’re the same person who opines that discussing with you “has no ultimate goal”, what games are you playing here? If you’ve proven yourself to be intellectually immature to dialogue, there would be no ultimate goal in promoting your pretences.
Regards.
Gwaine says
Dear freewillgiver,
I don’t appeal to arguments from demagoguery.
I’m not partisan; and for the rest, please see my reply #27.
It’s alright to label me however suits you, but it does very little to help your concerns. As to my balance, please see my reply #45, (note the with emphasis) –
“For example, if I were an anti-tither, it would not matter to me whatever points of reference would lead to my conclusions; AND THE SAME THING would be true if the reverse (PRO-TITHER) was the case. Using these ill-conceived and unjustified arguments to “force” people ONE WAY OR ANOTHER is unhealthy”.
Context: ‘If you carefully go through my concerns, you’d find that I deplore extremes on EITHER side; and it’s quite unfortunate when Christians would have to resort to “tactics” to discuss “truth”’. [my reply #21].
Whatever the messages we may give, I’m not seeking cheers from anyone.
You’ve already asked this question, and my answer is the same.
Your money-tithe “formula” is weak as it seeks to make “most” churches guilty merely by your narrow or restrictive definition. It’s like making a sweeping statement and running away with it. Yet, claiming that “most denominations” preach “exactly” what you stated is a manufactured statement you hope to plaster on everyone. I’ve checked the summary statements of some of the denominations you mentioned, and they do not argue tithes in “exactly” the way you stated. This is why I disavow partisan and shallow statements that are too presumptuous.
I’ve always maintained my inclination to dialogue amicably and in an enabling atmosphere. As Christians we don’t need to resort to wild and misleading statements to justify any labels we choose for ourselves; for resorting to such ruse does not help build the character of Jesus in us, much less the attitude of some to tend to “dog fights”.
I trust we can share our thoughts in a healthy manner – but if the general opinion is that discussing with people here “has no ultimate goal”, I’m thankful to know so and wish you all my warmest regards.
Gwaine says
Hi Jared,
I’ve already offered that it won’t be in anyone’s best interest to litter your blog. The latest rejoinder especially from Russell hasn’t said anything of substance other than pick quips here and there and mispunch with silly remarks – more like quetching and mewling than reasoning. It’s not a difficult exercise for me to deal with them. However, if that is what your blog is about, I could oblige you and your friends – but I seriously hope we wouldn’t need to go there.
One thing that I yet notice is that nobody has ever taken anything I pointed out and refuted it intelligently. For example, just imagine after proffering answers (# 37) to freewillgiver’s queries (# 36) – I haven’t seen any intelligent rejoinder pointing out where my answers were flawed. Vacant assertions have been made back and forth to the effect that I haven’t stated anything; but none of those playing these games has pointed out just what in my rejoinders they have found untenable. Not one.
Are we going to keep playing these games – perhaps because those too eager to label themselves under the “anti” banner have run out of steam? I’ve amicably sent this to you by email so you understand I’m not given to “fights” or on a mission to clog your blog – and I’ll repost this concern on the blog for their considerations as well (if you’d permit). I’d expected a very mature engagement, but perhaps I expected too much, as it’s evident that they’ve resorted to puling for their entertainment.
Regards.
freewillgiver says
Dr. Kelly thank you so much for all your work. Friend Marty hello I did not mean to sound harsh I was just pointing out that our friend Gwaine has really offered so little about the core of his beliefs on tithing. Part of the purpose of this blog is to Challenge others in the name of Jesus and to have some kind of fellowship. However with such vaugeness in the long post of Guane confusion is the result.
Gwaune friend I don’t mean to overload you with questions but mabey you could convince us to be neutral if you could define it to us. In your experience,Are most evangelical U.S. churches pro tithers or nuetral? At least that would help me put you in perspective to most other churches.
I would love to compare his position about tithes to the standard church or us anti-tithers but what I know about Gwains position I could fit in a thimble. What is the history of your beliefs Gwaine? Becase your post lack context they are the most difficult post to understand that I have encoutered in a year of posting on this blog.
Mabey I am becoming unclear Please give us your doctrine and not just scripture because you seem to have a compleetly different take than we do. What is this position? Who else holds it? What kind of church do you go to and do they support your take on tithes? Are these unreasonable questions?
Gwaine why do so many folks on this site doubt your neutrality? I believe you could remedy this with more disclosure.
Marty, Gwaine also has not offered his reson for posting here, or much of personal perspective about tithes exept that many anti- tithers use what he calls bad arguments. Of course this makes us wonder if he really is accidentally or on purpose a pro money tithe person. Neutrality is very hard for me to believe in when it comes to tithes. I do know that pro tithers love neutrality by anti-tithers becase they are already in control of most U.S. churches.
Can Gwaine name any Christian folks who agree with him about tithes? If he did then that would be a nice start to understanding his position. Sorry Gwaine and all for this long post so answer at your leisure and behind your other priorties work, family, ministry but when you have the time please answer. Are most US churches in favor of your position in your experience and what groups of Christians share your beliefs?
Gwaine says
@freewillgiver,
Thanks again for your rejoinder. In my note to Jared, I’ve observed that this discussion seems to be bending towards unethical strains – especially when you guys have resorted to emotion rather than reason. I mean, what’s with all back-patting and solicitations to Marty when you’re addressing Gwaine? What sort of game is this turning to?
Anyhow…
I don’t mind the length of anyone’s rejoinder – I would always take the time to carefully go through them.
However, there’s one reason why I seriously doubt your sweeping generalizations and argument from demagoguery, which is what I just shared with you:
“I’ve checked the summary statements of some of the denominations you mentioned, and they do not argue tithes in “exactly” the way you stated. This is why I disavow partisan and shallow statements that are too presumptuous.”
I cannot just agree with you by rote on the sweeping assumptions you make about these denominations, unless you’re asking me to become a victim of the same tendency that weakens your generalizations.
Cheers.