6 Reasons to Debate Tithing

tithing debate

Many have asked me, “why tithing”? Of all the things to study and debate, why have i chosen tithing? Right off the bat i don’t really know why the topic of tithing fires me up so much, so i found 5 good reasons to get fired up about the tithing debate.

The Love of Money is the Root of all Kinds of Evil

I almost said that money is the root of evil. I think i write that because my mind is always on autopilot. Money is not the root of all kinds of evil. The LOVE of money is. Sure, tithing is a good discipline to rid greed from those who are giving, but what about those who are receiving? There are many out there who are extorting God’s word for the gain of money. Many of you think about televangelists, but that’s just a few on TV. There are many more who desire more and more money to build more and more of their kingdom. Sure, many of them think that God gave them this vision to do this or that. Tithing allows them to build their own dreams and mandate others to pay for it. It’s not necessarily that they love money; they love what money can build.

Tithing in the New Testament Church is Against Scripture

Plain and simple and probably the most important factor that inspires my quest against tithing. I’m not going to spout out any scripture to prove tithing wrong. I’ve done plenty of that already in the past. I believe with all of my heart, that tithing is unbiblical. I do not have an ounce of doubt in my heart or mind about it. I wish i could take what i’ve learned and play it in a movie, or write it in a book. Words and pictures will not do justice to what the Spirit of God has enlightened in my heart.

Tithing Extorts the Poor and Excuses the Rich

I’ve seen churches investigate many members to figure out if they are tithing. If a rich man has been tithing, he is let go and forgot about. But if a poor man is not tithing, and needs help or assistance in paying his bills, the church will first investigate his finances to see if he tithed. If he did, then they will check his spending records and make sure he isn’t spending too much on other things.

The church will try everything to get out of helping this poor man. They will show how he can spend less here and there, and yet still ask him to pay his tithes. They think no one has an excuse not to tithe. They don’t even realize that in scripture it was the poor who received tithes. What about the rich, why pick on them? They paid their tithes, didn’t they? Is a tithe really what God expects of them or is that what WE are expecting from them? Tithing is unjust and unfair.

Jesus Talked about Money More than any other Subject

Obviously nothing has more of a hold on people than money does. If Jesus talked about it so much than it must be crucial. I’m not a financial guru. I flunked accounting in highschool. But i do know that the flow of money going in and out of the church should be a much discussed topic. Disagree? Don’t mark my words, look at Jesus’. He talked about it more than sin, heaven, and hell.

Giving statistics stated that religious organizations brought in 103 billion dollars last year. We have done very little with the 103 billion dollars and we complain that we could do more if only more tithed. It is calculated that we spend 85% of what we take in on ourselves. As a matter of fact only 3% goes towards ministering to the needs of the unsaved. No wonder the world thinks the Church is greedy. It’s not because we are constantly asking for money. it’s because we keep it all to ourselves.

This is besides the point. How the Church receives it’s funds is important. If tithing is in place then people are not free to give to other places that God is leading them to give. Instead people are handcuffed to an organization that spends more and more on themselves.

Tithing Challenges me to Study God’s Word

I will admit, i’m not the encourager or exalter in the group. I like to dissect things with my mind and find solutions to fix the problems. If i see a problem i will speak up. I won’t if everything is going right, i just expect it to. I’m very opinionated, and debates really fuel my fire. I love them. Am i contentious. Sometimes, yes. I try to work on that. I don’t like to pick fights for no reason. But i love a good challenge. There is nothing biblically wrong with wanting to debate God’s word. Your motives must be pure, and you have to be extra careful about how your attitude shows Christ.

Everyone has their methods to help them get fired about God. For some, it’s to look for those who need emotional help. Others, it’s to look for a those who need some teaching. It’s all different for all of us. We are all wired different ways. I’d like to say that the greatest Christian is the one who is most balanced, but more than likely that Christian doesn’t fit in many places. We are different members with different things that drive our motivation. If we are the hands, then doing things with our hands motivates us. If we are the head, then using our thinking or leadership skills motivates us. We are all driven by different things.

So many People are Believing the Wrong Thing

This just hurts to see the number of people who are believing the wrong thing. I’m on a quest to help as many as i can to see the truth in God’s Word. If there was no one to convince, then i probably wouldn’t get into tithing. But it’s a challenge for me, and there are many who need help, and do not know the truth. At one time i didn’t know the truth. You can read about it in my tithing testimony. It is great to hear testimonies from those who have been freed by the teachings of God’s word about tithing. I do not want to diminish the fact of giving sacrificially, but at the same time, people are locked up in chains and need to be freed from the tithing mandate first in order to truly understand sacrificial giving.

Jared Bartholomew is the author of www.tithing.com. There are over 300 articles written on research and reviews about tithing information.

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371 comments on “6 Reasons to Debate Tithing
  1. freewillgiver says:

    Gwaine Friend

    Sorry if I offended you by addressing Marty. If you are a Christian then you love me and I love you the best I can. Hey I still want fellowship in the name of Jesus and you have taught us somthing. I never knew what a rejonder was untill you used the word so often that I have an Idea. I still want clarification friend. Who do you felloship with and how do you pay your tithes? Dose your felloship agree with you? What is your denomination?

    As to your check of the denominations this is why I stated that they had my exact beliefs or they would not oppose my money tithe doctrine formula. I meant that this was awful close to what they all teach.

    Do you have a more precice definition to what most evangelical churches teach about tithing? I know most would not oppose what I said but if I am wrong show me where. I would welcome the enlightenment. By the way tell me your doctrine also and how it differs from the mainstream if I have mislabeled the mainstream please show me what it is.

    Do you doubt that most evangelicals Aofg and Southern Baptitst and the PCA churches preach that “ten percent of christian money belongs to the local church” please show me any link that they disagree with such. Do you doubt that I could preach exactly that and get alot of Amens?

    There are beliefs which many churches hold in common about tithes. What are your beliefes that you hold against most churches or in favor of most churches? I still don’t know what kind of giving system that you put yourself under or that you oppose most churches.

    Gwaine you are educated definitly and a smart guy. Can you see why we think you are elusive. Name your favorite preacher. Mine was the Bible answer man Hank Hennegraph but he is pro tithing. His associate editor of the CRI Journal is against tithing so I have some respect for hank.

    There still is little context but a whole lot of high vocabulary critiqus (see I can’t spell) of us Anti tithers. Please whenever you can come back Please answer how you came to your beliefs what kind of churches do it best and what you think of most churches tithing system.

    I am looking forward to more rejoinders but I hope they teach more about your bacground.

  2. Three days into this blog and I still know nothing more about Gwaine’s position than when I first read it. Nobody is accomplishing anything. This is totally absurd. Nobody has offered any Bible text about tithing for discussion. All I discern is someebody practicing mass confusion. I will return if an when somebody actually wants to disccuss God’s Word.

  3. Marty says:

    Freewillgiver,
    Do not worry about it friend, I am not easily offended by anyone. However, I do appreciate your concern with it; it shows me your heart’s intention to not create strife among the brethren.

    I understand Gwain as being a pro-tither, even Gwaine has sounded neutral in most posts.

    The way I understand truth is, that you cannot be on both sides and you can’t be nuetral; you have to pick one side or another if you want any credibility. Jesus said, “If you not with me, then your against me (paraphrased).”

    I didn’t come here to argue over tithing. I came to share my experience, speak about the truth of it and to possibly meet others who share this deep biblical truth. I don’t mind talking about the money-grubbing tithing scam that has been perpetauted by preachers for way too long. Taht is one of my “beef’s” with the modern-day churches.

    I also wanted to possible find a church that has the heart of Jesus and desires to be a non-tithing, freewill & purposeful giving type of church or fellowship in my area.

    Gwaine, Thanks for you last reply and I glad we can come to a reasonable understanding.

    Blessings,
    Marty <

  4. Gwaine says:

    Dear Marty,

    I appreciate your concerns, nevermind the mislabeling. What people often try to do these days is label people one way or another so that it’s convenient for them to create an “us-versus-them” situation. What you may not realize is that such a tendency is quite ungodly and unnecessary – the “us-versus-them” attitude in matters like this is responsible for the deep divide that Christians find themselves in today. If my quest to stimulate a “healing of wounds” by promoting a healthy dialogue (cf. Romans 14:13) is unwelcome to you, what then is the substance of all our talk about “love” in Christ?

    Indeed, in Matthew 12:30 and Luke 11:23 Jesus said, “Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me” (NLT). But has Gwaine opposed JESUS at any time? Or, was the Lord Jesus an “anti-tither”? When people ferret verses from the Bible to mispunch the way you did, it’s a wonder the sort of “love in Jesus” you hold out to your brethren.

    My discussions did not indicate that I was on both sides – otherwise, why have anti-tithers been so perturbed about my posts, since they would’ve assumed I was on their side? You certainly can’t be so bland as to assert that someone “can’t be neutral” – if you want verses in the Bible showing where godly men have been nonpartisan to raging debates, simply ask for them and I would gladly oblige you [see James 2:1 & 9, NLT].

    Many churches both (tithing and non-tithing) have a heart for Jesus. It is not our doctrinal persuasions about tithing that determines whether or not we have a burning passion for Christ, or which church is better than the other. Believers today may like to choose between “non-tithing churches” and “tithing churches”, but is that not a most disturbing trend for us who claim to be walking in the Spirit of God? Whatever anyone may be inclined to, my simple challenge has always been: “DO AS YOU MAY!”, and God bless you thereto.

    Best wishes.

  5. Gwaine says:

    @freewillgiver,

    Thank you yet again for your amicable reply and interest in getting to know me a bit more. I wasn’t offended, just that I wondered earlier about the scenario that was playing out.

    Anyways, the reason for my reservations about anyone’s denominational affiliations is to discourage the tendency to turn our discussion into an ‘us-versus-them’ situation. I’m more interested in ‘what is being said’ than in ‘what label you wear’.

    As to your check of the denominations this is why I stated that they had my exact beliefs or they would not oppose my money tithe doctrine formula. I meant that this was awful close to what they all teach.

    Okay, I understand you – awful close, yes; but I’m not quite sure if that’s always the case, as we shall soon see.

    Do you have a more precice definition to what most evangelical churches teach about tithing? I know most would not oppose what I said but if I am wrong show me where. I would welcome the enlightenment.

    True, while most evangelical churches may not oppose your simplistic definition, they nevertheless hold different ideas about its application, so we cannot just plaster a simplistic statement upon all or “most” of them. For instance, while some of those you had mentioned would encourage tithing, they do not enforce it upon their members, nor do they necessarily peg tithes at “10%”; so it’s not quite healthy to list them among those who tend to make it your assertive statement. (I’ll share a few links later).

    By the way tell me your doctrine also and how it differs from the mainstream if I have mislabeled the mainstream please show me what it is.

    My premise in these matters – 2 Corinthians 9:7-8 and Romans 14:5, quoted several times already. I do not make a ‘doctrine’ out of these, so if people have “purposed in their hearts” to commit a proportion of their income (whatever proportion that may be) to the Lord, why should anyone quarrel with that? ‘Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind’. In just the same manner, if some have “purposed in their hearts” to give selfishly or nothing at all, let them do as they may – it’s not in my place to harangue them (Rom. 14:10). What we could do is encourage people to genuine stewardship, not the sort of
    burlesque that most anti-tithers have taken as a career to argue endlessly about this issue.

    The ‘mainstream’ (which you defined as ‘most’ evangelicals) are not all preaching ‘exactly’ what you stated on their behalf – not all or most are donning the formulaic statement you proposed: “ten percent of christian money belongs to the local church”. It would sound like they were enforcing it upon their members when this is not always the case.

    Do you doubt that most evangelicals Aofg and Southern Baptitst and the PCA churches preach that “ten percent of christian money belongs to the local church” please show me any link that they disagree with such. Do you doubt that I could preach exactly that and get alot of Amens?

    It’s important to understand what churches mean by tithes belonging to a local church. For instance, th AofG states that “the tithes rightfully belong in the church with which the Christian identifies” ( http://www.ag.org/TOP/BELIEFS/gendoct_06_tithing.cfm ), but it does not necessarily mean that the AofG forces tithing on its members. On the other hand, the PCAs are not known to be stringent to demand that your tithes “must” follow your statement. A quotefrom the Redeeemer Presbyterian Church (http://redeemerpres.com/content/view/24/41/ ) —

    3. Should I give all of my tithe/offering to Redeemer Presbyterian Church? (You mean my giving is restricted?)
    The answer to this is a qualified ‘no’! Your gift is an act of personal worship to God in response to his grace in your life.

    Among those churches who encourage tithing, after all is said and done, they make clear that tithes are not tied to legal obligations or any legalism binding upon any of their members, though they would encourage its practice as one among several methods of stewardship. In other words, members are encouraged to tithe where they can, but this does not mean that other practical issues and needs in their lives are to be neglected. In due course I’ll share the links of a few cases that bear out this point articulately.

  6. Gwaine says:

    @freewillgiver,

    There are beliefs which many churches hold in common about tithes. What are your beliefes that you hold against most churches or in favor of most churches? I still don’t know what kind of giving system that you put yourself under or that you oppose most churches.

    It would be fruitless for me to show favouritism to some churches against others on my personal beliefs.

    True, there are common notions held by many churches about tithes – most commonly defined as ONLY “10%” and nothing else. However, I do not see tithes defined as ONLY “10%” every single time in Scripture; and even most anti-tithers would agree there are various percentages and expressions for tithes in many verses in the Bible. As earlier, some churches vary the “percentage” of their tithes (whether less or more than 10%), and it does not appear that they have been forcing their members to be burdened thereto.

    The big question is not so much what ‘percentage’ should be used, but rather whether tithing or any other type of giving should be FORCED on any Christian. We cannot FORCE anything (whether tithes or freewill giving) on Christians, nor make either one or the other a “REQUIRED” matter in the Church. The problem with so many people is that they have become more concerned with “systems” than in the giving itself – and that’s where we miss the essence of our Christian calling. Whether people tithe a certain “portion” of their income, or give in some other way, the essential matter is the giving, not the ‘system.’ And there’s no denying the fact that the NT encourages stewardship by setting aside a “portion”, so it’s risible indeed for some anti-tithers to vacantly assert that they are against any “proportion” or “percentages”.

    Gwaine you are educated definitly and a smart guy. Can you see why we think you are elusive. Name your favorite preacher. Mine was the Bible answer man Hank Hennegraph but he is pro tithing. His associate editor of the CRI Journal is against tithing so I have some respect for hank.

    I haven’t been elusive, no matter what anyone may think. Where people scream that “neutrality is not possible” my reason for being nonpartisan is simply based on what Scripture says about our attitudes
    “My dear brothers and sisters, how can you claim to have faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ IF YOU FAVOR SOME PEOPLE OVER OTHERS?. . . But if you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law” – James 2:1 & 9, NLT.
    “Showing partiality is never good” – Proverbs 28:21, NLT.
    I’ve enjoyed and continue to enjoy the ministries of many godly men. However, after all the quarrels and haggling on either side over tithing, one question I would ask you guys is this: IS THERE AN ANATHEMA FOR CHRISTIANS WHO TITHE?

    I once fervently argued against tithing, using most of the same retired and recycled anti-tithing arguments… until God opened my eyes to see that most of the arguments were mere excuses, ill-conceived and warped (I could point out so many misconceptions upon request). Yet, this did not tilt me into the ‘pro-tithing’ camp: I just learnt to see that it is not the “system” that God is most concerned with, but the challenge of the giving itself (2 Corinthians 8:24). This is why my persuasion has consistently been: “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart,” even if they purpose to tithe a certain “portion” of their income – let them have the freedom to “DO AS THEY MAY”, and to enjoy doing so in proving their stewardship to God Himself.

    Now tell me: is the challenge to “Do as you may” tantamount to being “elusive”? If not, why the repeated accusation?

    There still is little context but a whole lot of high vocabulary critiqus (see I can’t spell) of us Anti tithers. Please whenever you can come back Please answer how you came to your beliefs what kind of churches do it best and what you think of most churches tithing system.

    Okay, I admit – and apologise – that on this blog I’ve mostly critiqued anti-tithing arguments and not as much pro-tithing arguments, although I’ve highlighted a few worrisome issues with some of the latter. For instance, I resent the idea of using tithes in ways that there’s not a hint for in Scripture – such as a requirement for church membership, or employment discrimination in church organizations, or using it as a ploy for filthy lucre. We all know that not everyone on either side of the debate commit these fallacies, and I’ve repeated myself severally that on either side there are some points we could all appreciate. People who find it difficult to see any value from both sides are wishing to throw the baby out with the bath water. It’s as if to say that the labelling is more important to them than what is being said.

    I’m least interested in whatever labels anyone goes by, but whether “anti” or “pro”, it is unethical for people to resort to flawed ideas to argue “truth”. If anti-tithers are using false arguments and warped interpretations as much as some of their pro-tithing opponents, would it be worthwhile throwing anyone into either camp? This is why the labelling is of no consequence to me in these discussions, and people are free to accuse howsoever pleases them – at the end of the day, some of those hooting the quip that “truth is truth and error is error” have not demonstrated they’re interested in “truth”. Should we then resort to fallacies just to push some anti-tithing or pro-tithing “truth”?

  7. Gwaine says:

    @freewillgiver,

    Here’s the post with details of the links as promised earlier, to highlight the points made in my previous post, that:

    1. most churches do not “force” but encourage their members to tithe;
    2. they do not make tithing a matter of legalism or what is “REQUIRED”
    3. some churches have varied percentages – less or more than “10%”
    4. they do not make tithes the priority to neglect other needs of tithers
    5. they don’t consider tithes from a legalistic application from the Law

    Let’s see a few examples (a few emphasis mine):

    1. From a United Church of Christ website:

    A tithe is the giving back of 10% of what God has given us. It’s a form of proportionate giving. WE MAY BEGIN ANYWHERE (on average in mainline Protestantism it’s about 1.5% of annual income), THEN INCREASE OUR PERCENTAGE, perhaps each year. For some, tithing is inconceivable; for others, it’s the least they can do; for all of us, we can pray about it.
    (http://www.ucc.org/newsletter/vitality/stewardship-devotional-day-30.html )

    2. from Legion of the Order of St. Michael (Catholic)

    (a) The word “tithe” orignally meant ten percent (10%). The “tithe,” however, is only a barometer or guideline to help determine one’s sacrificial giving. Some can and should offer MORE THAN A 10% tithe; others may have circumstances that warrant them paying LESS THAN A 10% tithe.

    (b) If a tithe (10%) is legitimately too much for one’s current budget, a member MAY BEGIN WITH A LOWER PERCENTAGE that will be both sacrificial and yet possible. Then the member may gradually raise the level of giving until the full tithe is reached. In this way brothers and sisters and families are making a decision for the Lord first and only afterward considering their own needs and wants.
    (http://www.saint-mike.org/Library/Rule/Excerpts/principles_tithing.asp )

    3. from Metropolitan Community Churches website:

    I was thrilled recently to receive an email from Rev. Karen Thompson, our clergy colleague now serving at MCC Austin. She writes:
    God continues to bless us here in Austin. . . We are thrilled in partnering with MCC . . .and agree that we want to ask the Board and congregation to approve AN INCREASE IN OUR DENOMINATIONAL TITHES from 13% to 15% in 2009 . . .this is a way to MODEL AND INSPIRE EVEN GREATER GENEROSITY in a generous congregation. . . we want to be a “pacesetter” church all year round! . . .Finally, we want to change our culture so that our tithing is never an answer to the question, ‘What has the denomination done for us lately?’ but rather our faithful response to God and an affirmation of our commitment to the amazing mission of MCC Churches and our trust in its leadership.
    (http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Search&template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=4882 )

    4. from Lutheran Church of the Resurrection:

    TITHING at 10% may not be possible for everyone at first, so you START AT WHATEVER PERCENTAGE is do-able and challenging for you, and then you learn to GROW IN YOUR GIVING until you reach 10% AND BEYOND. We are called to give joyfully and thankfully to God FIRST, for that which God has done and continues to do for us!
    ( http://www.lutheransonline.com/servlet/lo_ProcServ/dbpage=page&mode=display&gid=01026013600971119737240969 )

    5. Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod,

    In the New Testament, tithing is not mentioned nearly as much, but such expressions as cheerful, firstfruit, and proportionate are used repeatedly. This leads us to conclude that while tithing may be a good spiritual discipline and a good starting point for a mature Christian, it may not be the best way to present biblical giving since it can easily become a legalistic requirement of the law rather than a cheerful offering motivated by the love of God shown toward us in Christ.

    Therefore, in the second of the eight Biblical Stewardship Principles, we maintain that God’s stewards are managers, not owners. This means that God’s stewards have been entrusted with life and life’s resources and given the privilege of responsibly and joyfully managing them for Him. Thus, as children of God through faith in Jesus Christ, and with the Holy Spirit’s help, we will encourage cheerful, firstfruit, proportionate (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO TITHING) living and giving in all areas of life by Christian stewards
    ( http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=3938 )

    6. The Redeemmer Presbyterian Church, on Stewardship:

    “Therefore, the tithe (10%) is seen as a kind of minimum guideline for giving for those of us who ‘have been given the kingdom’. Of course, there are seasons to economic life that sometimes strain our ability to give. In many cases, good planning over time will be necessary to move our giving into Biblical proportions without reneging on legal and personal financial obligations.

    Having said that, your tithe and offering should be a byproduct of prayer and consideration as God works on your conscience.”
    ( http://redeemerpres.com/content/view/24/41/ )

    7. An observation from “What Presbyterians Believe”

    I believe people who enjoy tithing do so, NOT OUT OF A LEGALISTIC BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION, but out of gratitude to God for God’s grace given to us in Jesus Christ. Certainly helping others is an authentic Christian trait.
    (http://www.pcusa.org/today/archive/believe/wpb9705.htm )

    8. St. Joseph Church (Catholic) :

    What Do we Do Now? What Happens Next?
    The decision is up to you. Much will happen should you choose to tithe. It is your choice, your option. You will not be asked to sign anything. No one will ring your doorbell or knock on your door. There are no meetings or pledges. Seek God’s will through earnest prayer.
    (http://www.sjy.org/church/Tithing.asp )

    Do these all sound like the bland assertions that many anti-tithers often argue from demagoguery?

    Regards.

  8. Gwaine says:

    Russell E. Kelly:
    Three days into this blog and I still know nothing more about Gwaine’s position than when I first read it. Nobody is accomplishing anything. This is totally absurd. Nobody has offered any Bible text about tithing for discussion. All I discern is someebody practicing mass confusion. I will return if an when somebody actually wants to disccuss God’s Word.

    More mewling and pretentious claims. When you drop your hubris and ornamental farce, join us again. :)

  9. Gwaine says:

    (Jared, if this is a repeat, delete this one and let the other stand – I wanted to provide the links for what I promised freewillgiver. Thanks)

    ——————-

    @freewillgiver,

    Here’s the post with details of the links as promised earlier, to highlight the points made in my previous post, that:

    1. most churches do not “force” but encourage their members to tithe;
    2. they do not make tithing a matter of legalism or what is “REQUIRED”
    3. some churches have varied percentages – less or more than “10%”
    4. they do not make tithes the priority to neglect other needs of tithers
    5. they don’t consider tithes from a legalistic application from the Law

    Let’s see a few examples (a few emphasis mine):

    1. From a United Church of Christ website:

    A tithe is the giving back of 10% of what God has given us. It’s a form of proportionate giving. WE MAY BEGIN ANYWHERE (on average in mainline Protestantism it’s about 1.5% of annual income), THEN INCREASE OUR PERCENTAGE, perhaps each year. For some, tithing is inconceivable; for others, it’s the least they can do; for all of us, we can pray about it.
    (http://www.ucc.org/newsletter/vitality/stewardship-devotional-day-30.html )

    2. from Legion of the Order of St. Michael (Catholic)

    (a) The word “tithe” orignally meant ten percent (10%). The “tithe,” however, is only a barometer or guideline to help determine one’s sacrificial giving. Some can and should offer MORE THAN A 10% tithe; others may have circumstances that warrant them paying LESS THAN A 10% tithe.

    (b) If a tithe (10%) is legitimately too much for one’s current budget, a member MAY BEGIN WITH A LOWER PERCENTAGE that will be both sacrificial and yet possible. Then the member may gradually raise the level of giving until the full tithe is reached. In this way brothers and sisters and families are making a decision for the Lord first and only afterward considering their own needs and wants.
    (http://www.saint-mike.org/Library/Rule/Excerpts/principles_tithing.asp )

    3. from Metropolitan Community Churches website:

    I was thrilled recently to receive an email from Rev. Karen Thompson, our clergy colleague now serving at MCC Austin. She writes:
    God continues to bless us here in Austin. . . We are thrilled in partnering with MCC . . .and agree that we want to ask the Board and congregation to approve AN INCREASE IN OUR DENOMINATIONAL TITHES from 13% to 15% in 2009 . . .this is a way to MODEL AND INSPIRE EVEN GREATER GENEROSITY in a generous congregation. . . we want to be a “pacesetter” church all year round! . . .Finally, we want to change our culture so that our tithing is never an answer to the question, ‘What has the denomination done for us lately?’ but rather our faithful response to God and an affirmation of our commitment to the amazing mission of MCC Churches and our trust in its leadership.
    (http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Search&template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=4882 )

    4. from Lutheran Church of the Resurrection:

    TITHING at 10% may not be possible for everyone at first, so you START AT WHATEVER PERCENTAGE is do-able and challenging for you, and then you learn to GROW IN YOUR GIVING until you reach 10% AND BEYOND. We are called to give joyfully and thankfully to God FIRST, for that which God has done and continues to do for us!
    ( http://www.lutheransonline.com/servlet/lo_ProcServ/dbpage=page&mode=display&gid=01026013600971119737240969 )

    5. Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod,

    In the New Testament, tithing is not mentioned nearly as much, but such expressions as cheerful, firstfruit, and proportionate are used repeatedly. This leads us to conclude that while tithing may be a good spiritual discipline and a good starting point for a mature Christian, it may not be the best way to present biblical giving since it can easily become a legalistic requirement of the law rather than a cheerful offering motivated by the love of God shown toward us in Christ.

    Therefore, in the second of the eight Biblical Stewardship Principles, we maintain that God’s stewards are managers, not owners. This means that God’s stewards have been entrusted with life and life’s resources and given the privilege of responsibly and joyfully managing them for Him. Thus, as children of God through faith in Jesus Christ, and with the Holy Spirit’s help, we will encourage cheerful, firstfruit, proportionate (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO TITHING) living and giving in all areas of life by Christian stewards
    ( http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=3938 )

    6. The Redeemmer Presbyterian Church, on Stewardship:

    “Therefore, the tithe (10%) is seen as a kind of minimum guideline for giving for those of us who ‘have been given the kingdom’. Of course, there are seasons to economic life that sometimes strain our ability to give. In many cases, good planning over time will be necessary to move our giving into Biblical proportions without reneging on legal and personal financial obligations.

    Having said that, your tithe and offering should be a byproduct of prayer and consideration as God works on your conscience.”
    ( http://redeemerpres.com/content/view/24/41/ )

    7. An observation from “What Presbyterians Believe”

    I believe people who enjoy tithing do so, NOT OUT OF A LEGALISTIC BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION, but out of gratitude to God for God’s grace given to us in Jesus Christ. Certainly helping others is an authentic Christian trait.
    (http://www.pcusa.org/today/archive/believe/wpb9705.htm )

    8. St. Joseph Church (Catholic) :

    What Do we Do Now? What Happens Next?
    The decision is up to you. Much will happen should you choose to tithe. It is your choice, your option. You will not be asked to sign anything. No one will ring your doorbell or knock on your door. There are no meetings or pledges. Seek God’s will through earnest prayer.
    (http://www.sjy.org/church/Tithing.asp )

    Do these all sound like the bland assertions that many anti-tithers often argue from demagoguery?

    Regards.

  10. Gwaine

    There is no Bible discussion happening to join. You are simply running some kind of self-appeasement scam and I have much more important ways to spend my time. Jared should stop this blog adn start something more worthwhile that does not inclde your garbage.

  11. Gwaine says:

    Russell,

    Gwaine
    There is no Bible discussion happening to join. You are simply running some kind of self-appeasement scam and I have much more important ways to spend my time. Jared should stop this blog adn start something more worthwhile that does not inclde your garbage.

    How long are you going to keep up your twaddle? I’ve offered that there’s no need for your hubris.

    Regards.

  12. freewillgiver says:

    Dr. Kelley thank you for the rebuke. “The rebuke of a friend is better than the praises of an enemey” I will remember to keep the discussion to Jesus, remember to quote scripture and to Christian stewadship.

    One of our big problems with this discussion has been that many of our post have been lost. Then we get frustrated posting again but our thoughts are often more blunk, angry, trunkated and rushed. However Jesus was in control of that. I know Gwaine and everyone felt pain whose post were lost. I told you in one lost post that you made me think about the pagan Melchezedek stuff. Where have I made you think. You will respond in time thank you.

    Gwaine thankyou for a little more self disclosure. “You will know a fool by his many words” I am not to carefull with my words but you have helped me sharpen them. It was great to read your answer because I do not want you to leave this site in strife. I love that you read and reply it is a caring action.

    The meaning that you put into the word tithes is better than the meaning that is taught by most evangellical pastors and congregations. Thank you for partially defining the standard normal American Evangelical definitions as problematic.

    Thank you for also saying that you were anti-tithes and you do reflect that at times. Since your meaning thrown into tithes is superior to most churches you would get trouble if you preached your doctrines on tithes would you agree?

    “Ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood a holy nation”

    While giving a money tithe the concept of the preisthood of all believers becomes muddled. I believe that the tithe exesses are often done by well meaning Christian leaders who usually call themselves pastors. I put a different meaning into the word pastor and I put a different meaning into the word tithes.

    Why not drop the word tithes when conserning Christian giving? I know that pastors have variations in what they make the standard doctrine to mean but tithes is a loaded word where even if I preached free will giving and called it tithing some would still walk away with “ten percent belongs to the local church” and that there are “priest and those who give to tithes to the priest called clergy”.

    As you have seen this site is really about reformation of the existing organizational church back to a more Jesus centered path. Christians were called in the Bible “the way” and the money tithe doctrines set up the the money tithe systems “word of faith, name it and claim it”

    The diminishing of the prieshood of all believers is part of the problems with the money tithe doctrines. Also the local church mentality, What do you think about that? I think that pastoring is somthing that all Christians do in word and deed more than it is a position. The ten percent moneytithe to the local church understandings that are common help create super-pastors and super inefficient ministries. True most are done out of good will and trying to praise Jesus but like the government of California and the U.S. goverment most 9 out of ten dollars get used doing stuff the New tesetment did not command.

    Nice stuff, Big buildings and well paid staff, nice musicals at the 4th of July, but not much for starving Christian kids in Africa percicuted by Muslim radicals.

    I want churches in homes everyday and kids in Christian schools everyday. This is where the local church money should be going to everyones personal ministries. What do you think? Are my thoughts in the direction of yours?

    Christ in you

  13. freewillgiver says:

    This 6 resons post is turning into the 600 reasons we debate tithing. I like the new symbols artwork Jared. Nice touch.

    There are so many reasons I debate tithes. One reason I present for debating tithes to Jared, Gwaine, Marty and everyone is that “where ones treasure is your heart is also”. Contained in the standard “10% money tithe to the local church” misundestandings are man made doctrines on top of man made doctrines which all lead away from Jesus being central. The “local church” mentality is more suported by believing that Christians money tithe, rather than give offerings to Jesus. The Church, the Body of Christ becomes a place like the Jesish temples. Then Chistianity becomes mostly tied to a day and a place.

    Offerings is a superior term for What Christians give. What do you think would you preach offerings or tithes? Temples are connected with the earth. I give to Jesus, Besides our body is the temple and the body of Christ is the large temple. I think the local church term distorts the idea that givinig should go to people that Jesus puts on our hearts. “Let every man set in his heart what he should give”

    Why not always replace the word tithes with offering or giving? Where is the power in the word tithes if it is so easily manipulated, loaded and misunderstood in the language of today. Tithes is not an evil word but the standard monetithe doctrine is very problematic. To the average American Christian listener tithes will usually always additinally mean code for The standard tithe doctrine. It takes de construction of the word to set the average U.S Christian straight. I am African American the term Coulored or Negro takes de- construction to not be hostle in my ears even if it comes from a loving person.

    Gwaine “There is no anathema in my heart or in any others on this site that I know of for those who tithe”. I don’ Know exactly who thinks those who tithe are anathema. Whatever anathema means. Rememeber my vocabulary is often as low as my spelling skills.

    For those who recieve money tithes and preach the standard doctrines which you your self would never teach, yes for that most of us would agree on this site that teaching such, and taking money is a sin most of the time. Some Christian leaders are truly in mistaken error. Taking others monye with the tithe doctrines diminishes others mission in my opinion. If folks truly are giving voluntarily then there is almost no problem. But the term tithe implys force to the average U.S. listener. We truly believe church is the people and that “we are the body of Christ” If we are priest and the body of Christ then we all have local ministries wich are every day and in the home.

    Where are all the Christian videos for our children? Why do most American Christians have more secular entertainment than Christian entertainmet. Partially because America christians believe that some of the Money belongs to Jesus and the 90% belongs to themselves. They also believe that they go to the “House of God” when they attend their local church.They are mislead away from truly believing that they all have thier own ministries and all their money is Church money. “Ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood” Now this misleading is mostly unintentional but certain terms are pregnant in our Biblically illiterate culture. Tithes is one of those pregnant terms loaded with bad meanings and docrtine in the U.S. Is there a term you Gwain would use that is equivelent or is the word tithes irreplacable?

    We are anti tithe but we are also more for starting ones own ministry and effficient ministries to spread the love of Jesus. Sometimes the most efficient is to the local church weather they preach money tithing or not. Most of us on this site would be of the persuasion that most of the time the local church organizations are the least efficient ministries. Direct giving to the poor and training ones family at home is the most efficient most of the time. Any one dissagree with that? Please explain your dissagreements.

    What would you preach to others when they might ask “Should I give ten percent money tithe to my local church like my pastor says or should I start my own ministry by sending my kids to Christian School”‘? Gwain I can guess that your answer would be “set in your heart what you should give” Everyone, what do you think of my lines of thougt here?

    Anyways folks if we love and believe in Jesus then we are the Body of Christ, and the royal priesthood. We are all priest, we are the church and it starts in our homes. There is no day of Church we must let Jesus be in everyhing we do. I have asked alot of questions I hope I have caused somone to think. Please respond when yall can.

    Christ in Us

  14. freewillgiver says:

    Thankyou you Gwaine for the link

    Everyone check out the link that Gwane gave us. Jared it is incredible!

    The Assemblies of God has always been a proponent of tithing (or giving one-tenth of one’s personal income to support the work of God). Later in their Christian tithe document they explain it was Christians duty to give tithes. This is the common stuff I am against. They load the word tithes with 10% of ones income. Notice that includs everyone no exeptions.

    They just defined it.The average U.S. Bibiically illiterate Christian would walk away with the understanding “tithe or be in sin” Do you agree?

    If they replaced the word tithes with offering it would covey much more freedom. Would you support this doctrine of theres I will post on this again it is a whopper. Gwaine I don’t think so. This is the common scripture twisting which I speak of

    Notice how the commanded tithes of moses to support the Levites “always crops or food” in the bible became income. To the average listener income= money. They fit my simplistic exactly money tithe formula or they are not against my formula. Notice how they never mention that the poor did not pay tithes and that tithes were only for Landowners and Cattle owners. Heck they called tithes 10%. They are incredible.

    “10% of all Christian money belongs to the local church”
    The Assemblies of God was my church for most of my life now I fellowship truly undenominational.

    Christ in us!

  15. Yep,
    just read that AOG article. Thanks for pointing that out freewillgiver. Clearly, the AOG states that the tithe is a biblical requirement.

    Of course they can’t force their members to tithe without violating individual rights to choice. These denominations don’t encourage tithing, as if it’s a good practice. If they simply thought tithing was a good principle, then they wouldn’t go into detail about how Jesus commended and Abraham gave it before the law.

    The AoG believes the tithe is required.

    Christians can miss out on God’s abundant blessing by looking on the tithe as the entire requirement for giving

    They say it right there. If they don’t think tithing is entire requirement for giving then guess what, they still believe that tithing is “part” of the requirement.

  16. freewillgiver says:

    Warning the following is from the AofG church This blog opposes most of what will soon follow.Thank you Gwaine.
    ______________________________

    The Assemblies of God is also concerned about people who withhold tithes when they do not like decisions and directions espoused by spiritual leaders. Christians should fellowship with a local body of believers and bring their whole tithes into that storehouse (Malachi 3:10).

    Though some of the Israelites may not have liked decisions made by Moses and his successors, they were given no alternatives. While we may designate some of our offerings (beyond the tithes) to ministries outside the local church, the tithes rightfully belong in the church with which the Christian identifies.

    And if one is not identifying with a local body of believers, he or she disregards God’s instruction that we not forsake assembling together with believers (Hebrews 10:25).

    Some Christians do not tithe, claiming they cannot afford to give up 10 percent of their income. Simple arithmetic may suggest that 90 percent will not go as far as 100 percent in satisfying essential family needs.

    But God has built a multiplication factor into our giving of tithes and offerings.

    Malachi recorded God’s words, “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse… Test me in this… and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it” (Malachi 3:10).

    Though we do not give to God in order to get more back, as some suggest we should, God’s promises are still true–if our giving is according to His instruction.

    ________________________________
    Wow folks can you believe that? How many false doctrines are contained in the above statment?
    Local church? Leadership= to the Athority of Moses? Almost automatic Blessings for money tithers?

    This is some of the Assemblies of God official statment on tithes. Gwaine and everyone. I made a generic statment conserning most churches that they would exactly agree to or not oppose here was that statment.
    _______________________________
    “All christians must give 10% of their money to their local church or be in sin”
    _______________________________
    Wow! Christians should give even if they do not support decisions by leadership. Free will offerings only begin after the 10%. That my friends is forced Christian money tithing and churches are the new temples of God. Wow there are so many Christian man made doctrines in that statment. That is a pro money tithing document!

    All Christians are not priest in their formula if you Believe in what they posted. There are some Christians who recieve the tithes and some who give the tithes-leadership. All in Christ do not have equal ministries accorcding to that formula. There is alot more but that is all for now.

    Thanfully all Christians are priest. “Ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood”
    And priest had control to how they ran their own ministries. We can “set in our hearts what we should give”. Under the above statment Offerings are only after the mandated 10% moneytithe.

    I think Assemlies of God doctrine fits the definition of a Christian group which would not oppose my statment or they would fit it exactly. How do you think they did?

    Was that not an amazing piece of reading? Please tell me what yall think

    Christ in Us

  17. Gwaine says:

    Hi Jared,

    First, I don’t know what happened but my reply to freewillgiver detailing the links of the other churches on tithes did not appear. I could have posted them to him if I had his email addy. But no worries.

    However, let me try and correct your misconception on the article of the AofG:

    If they simply thought tithing was a good principle, then they wouldn’t go into detail about how Jesus commended and Abraham gave it before the law.

    There’s nothing wrong in pointing out Jesus’ commendation and Abraham’s tithing before the Law. In contrast, some anti-tithers have misrepresented both the person of Melchizedek and Abraham’s tithing; and it’s not surprising that this canard was conveniently devised to mislead folks into believing Abraham’s tithing was paganism. If you consult some of the refrences used in arguing paganism for Abraham, you’d be surprised that they teach the direct opposite!

    The AoG believes the tithe is required.

    Christians can miss out on God’s abundant blessing by looking on the tithe as the entire requirement for giving

    They say it right there. If they don’t think tithing is entire requirement for giving then guess what, they still believe that tithing is “part” of the requirement.

    Lol, you just saw “entire requirement” and immediately ran with it! Did you try to look at the context of what they stated? Re-read that whole paragraph – the first and last statements are urging Christians NOT to look at the tithe as an “entire requirement” or “obligation”. That is why they stated that: “The giving of either tithes or offerings WITH A GRUDGING SPIRIT LOSES MUCH OF THE BLESSING that can come as we faithfully GIVE OUT OF LOVE RATHER THAN OBLIGATION.

    The simple thing there was that they urged the giving to be out of love and NOT by obligation.

    It may help you to carefully read the article through again.

    Regards.

  18. Gwaine says:

    Dear freewillgiver,

    Your replies are appreciated. It’s always been my endeavour to be open to dialogue; but where discussants prove they’re more interested in tomfoolery than in reasoning, I feel very sorry for them.

    Yet, you’re one of those with whom I’ve enjoyed discussing. I think there are several concerns we share both ways, which have been addressed several times both in few words and at length, if we’d been more willing to listen than in labelling other people. A few other points we may need to reconsider for balance. Please don’t get me wrong, but let’s highlight some from yours:

    1. WORDS AND MEANINGS

    The meaning that you put into the word tithes is better than the meaning that is taught by most evangellical pastors and congregations…
    Since your meaning thrown into tithes is superior to most churches you would get trouble if you preached your doctrines on tithes would you agree?

    I’m not sure that the meaning of tithes as we discussed is going to be problematic to most churches – especially because “most” of the churches I tried to outline earlier (post not reflected) quite understand this meaning and that is why they are not pedantic or formalistic about a fixed figure of “ONLY 10%”. The examples I tried citing in the yet-to-be-reflected post include:
    – United Church of Christ
    – some Catholic churches
    – the MCC (Metropolitan Community Churches)
    – some Lutheran churches (eg., Lutheran Church of the Resurrection; and the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod)
    – some Presbyterian Churches
    – … and a host of other well-known churches.
    This is not an exhaustive list; but the basic thought is that they’re not pedantic on the meaning of tithes as to plaster it with a legalistic OT Law application.

    – – – – – – – – –

    2. CONFRONT ABUSES DIRECTLY

    I believe that the tithe exesses are often done by well meaning Christian leaders who usually call themselves pastors.

    The problem is not the tithes or whatever people call themselves; rather, it is the manipulation employed to defraud and mislead people – and this happens on both sides of the debate. You’re aware that some priests and leaders in the OT actually abused their calling and privileges (eg., 1 Sam. 2:15-17 & Ezek. 34:1-4, 18); but what was God’s response to such things? He raised up godly men who confronted these abuses directly, rather than castigating the tithes and offerings!

    On the pro-tithing side, some people have abused the tithes and offerings of God’s people. For instance, apart from the financial scandals, they use it as a prerequisite for membership in their churches, or as visa to the kingdom of God (hence salvation), or as the basis for employment discrimination. These are not the reasons why God established tithes in any instance – and we should by all means be set against and directly confront these abuses.

    On the other hand, the mistake “we” often make on the anti-tithing side is to mispunch by attacking tithes with frivolous and fallacious arguments and misinterpretations of simple Bible texts. Just imagine the argument that Abraham’s tithes were “pagan”, and many people quoting such fallacies are not even aware that some references which anti-tithers use in their arguments actually teach the opposite! In some other instances, those who are now too embarrassed to use the “pagan-Abraham-Melchizedek” sophistry, are yet misrepresenting what other churches are saying about tithes! I mean, why do we have to repeatedly resort to bare-faced falsehood just to “prove” that tithes are “unBiblical”?

    Instead of resorting to dubious and wild misrepresentations of issues, we could simply identify the real problems (the abuses) and deal with them squarely! Resorting to falsehood in arguing for or against tithes is ungodly; and there’s no justification for disguising such falsehood under the “love” of Jesus.

    – – – – – – – – –

    3. MISINFORMATION AND PREJUDICES

    Why not drop the word tithes when conserning Christian giving?

    Offerings is a superior term for What Christians give. What do you think would you preach offerings or tithes?

    Why not always replace the word tithes with offering or giving?

    The terminology or argot are not half as important as the proof of our commitment to actually give (see 2 Corinthians 8:24). When people worry so much about what ‘term’ to use in their giving, then unnecessary debates begin to emerge. This is why people who talk about “NEW covenant principles” are being dubious, because they mislead the gullible into thinking that those principles are “NEW” and were not in the “OLD covenant”.

    What exactly makes “offering” to be superior to ‘tithes’ or any other term? Is it that you’re personally seeking to promote one over the other, so that you can be partial in this matter? “Showing partiality is never good” – Proverbs 28:21 (NLT).

    If you’re going to promote the term ‘offering’ over ‘tithe’, you’d have to present verses specifically stating one term as ‘superior’ to the other. While we may be thrashing about on either terms (offering and tithes), someone else might come along and join the fray with his own appellations: vows, gifts, contributions, donations, pledges, collections, etc. And then where would the debate then lead on from there?

    As before, it’s not so much what term anyone wants to use that is paramount in our giving. If we replace the word ‘tithe’ with ‘offering’, does that automatically solve our problems? Does that take away the fact that people would still give a certain percentage of their income for God’s work, whatever percentage that may be? Or does using the term ‘offering’ eliminate the same scandals that have blistered the saints? You can see that your recommendation does not even come up to scratch with dealing with practical issues.

    – – – – – – – – –

    4. APPEALING TO UNRELATED ARGUMENTS

    The diminishing of the prieshood of all believers is part of the problems with the money tithe doctrines. Also the local church mentality, What do you think about that? I think that pastoring is somthing that all Christians do in word and deed more than it is a position.

    While we’re all called to care for one another in the Body of Christ, God has gifted mature men for leadership who pastor local churches. We should never confuse the first (’that the members should have the same care one for another’ – 1 Cor. 12:25) for the second (‘taking the oversight thereof’ – 1 Peter 5:1-3; see also Jer. 3:15 and Acts 20:28). Christ gave SOME, not everyone, to be pastors and teachers in the Church (Eph. 4:11). Distinguishing the one from the other would help us towards maintaining a balance and not blaming unrelated problems on tithes.

    – – – – – – – – –

    5. A RESPONSIBILITY: FOSTER UNDERSTANDING

    Tithes is not an evil word but the standard monetithe doctrine is very problematic. To the average American Christian listener tithes will usually always additinally mean code for The standard tithe doctrine.
    … Tithes is one of those pregnant terms loaded with bad meanings and docrtine in the U.S. Is there a term you Gwain would use that is equivelent or is the word tithes irreplacable?

    Don’t you think that people who promote a biased definition of any subject are actually contributing to the injuries suffered by many? Both anti-tithers and pro-tithers often appeal to some narrow meaning of the tithes so that it becomes convenient to attack strawmen – this is why some people reject some meanings of the term, and others strongly appeal to other definitions. If we take only some beveled meaning or definition of the term and hold only to that, what more are we doing than others holding their own preferred definition?

    Our responsibility is to help others appreciate a proper understanding of giving and stewardship, rather than promoting the default ideas derived from appeal to wild statements. It is not the “replacement” of one word with another fanciful term that solves our problem. From the onset, I’ve maintained that it’s of no consequence to me whatever names anyone uses – what’s far more essential is the proof of our commitment to give (2 Cor. 8:24).

  19. Gwaine says:

    6. REPLACING SCRIPTURE WITH HUMAN IDEAS

    Most of us on this site would be of the persuasion that most of the time the local church organizations are the least efficient ministries. Direct giving to the poor and training ones family at home is the most efficient most of the time. Any one dissagree with that? Please explain your dissagreements.

    There’s a serious problem with that idea – it’s just an idea, but it delicately gravitates away from God’s Word. First, you would need to clarify what you mean by “organizations”. In Scripture, we know that local churches were not established as organizations; yet, God’s Word presents various local churches to us.

    Second, and more importantly, what does Scripture say about what you’re proposing? Does direct giving to the poor (Mark 14:7) replace our stewardship in committed giving in local churches (1 Cor. 16:1-4)? You may be disinclined to giving in local churches – that’s okay; but does an appeal to humanistic ideas take precedence over God’s Word?

    – – – – – – – – –

    7. CONFUSING PRIORITIES

    What would you preach to others when they might ask “Should I give ten percent money tithe to my local church like my pastor says or should I start my own ministry by sending my kids to Christian School”‘? Gwain I can guess that your answer would be “set in your heart what you should give” Everyone, what do you think of my lines of thougt here?

    You seem to be confusing issues here, freewillgiver. Sending one’s kids to any school (Christian or otherwise) is not the same thing as “starting your own ministry”. If you’re not comfortable identifying with a local church (Heb. 10:25), that has nothing to do with the choice of whether or not to send your kids to any school.

    – – – – – – – – –

    As regards the Assemblies of God (AofG), it seems you guys have largely misconstrued their position. So, from yours, freewillgiver, here are a few things to note:

    This is some of the Assemblies of God official statment on tithes. Gwaine and everyone. I made a generic statment conserning most churches that they would exactly agree to or not oppose here was that statment.

    ‘Generic statement’? It is unfortunate that you’re using the position of one church to plaster guilt across the board. That is the sort of wild reaction that’s a put-off in these discussions, and it’s unfortunate that the links of several churches I posted yesterday were not reflected (I could share them with you by email, or ask Jared for them). Not everything about their position on tithing appeals to everyone, and I might show you a few other things you never considered as well before jumping to conclusions.

    “All christians must give 10% of their money to their local church or be in sin”

    Perhaps I missed it; but could you show me where the official statement says you’d “be in sin” for not giving 10%? The article states that if one was not identifying with a local body of believers, “he or she disregards God’s instruction that we not forsake assembling together with believers (Hebrews 10:25)”. They did not state that if one does not give “10%”, they must “be in sin”, and it’s not a godly attitude to put words into their mouth.

    Wow folks can you believe that? How many false doctrines are contained in the above statment? Local church? Leadership= to the Athority of Moses? Almost automatic Blessings for money tithers?

    That also was not inferred in the article of their Statement on tithing. You may have a serious problem with the “local church”, but please share with us on how the “local church” in Scripture is ‘false doctrine’. As for “leadership” and “Moses”, you’re driving your own canard into the article, and anyone who can read with context will see your reaction is uncalled for.

    However, I’m more concerned with your assertion: “Almost automatic Blessings for money tithers” – that was also NOT given in the article either. First, they noted that – “the ATTITUDE with which both tithes and offerings are given is very important”; and then they made clear that:
    1. “we faithfully give out of love RATHER THAN OBLIGATION”
    2. “we do not give to God in order to get more back”
    Do these sound like they were saying the same thing as your “almost automatic Blessings for money tithers”?! Why the deliberate prevarication?

    Wow! Christians should give even if they do not support decisions by leadership. Free will offerings only begin after the 10%. That my friends is forced Christian money tithing and churches are the new temples of God. Wow there are so many Christian man made doctrines in that statment. That is a pro money tithing document!

    “Free will offerings ONLY BEGIN after the 10%” – honestly, is that what they said? Are we so driven by our own tendentiousness to deliberately misread simple statements? I’m just wondering.

    Although I’m not profoundly familiar with the AofG Bylaws, yet I don’t think you are fairly representing their views. They nowhere stated that free will offerings “only begin” after the 10%. At best, you may have been referring to the statement in the article that reads: “we may designate some of our offerings (beyond the tithes) to ministries outside the local church”; or to “voluntary offerings given by God’s people over and above the required tithe”. These pointers (‘beyond’ and ‘over and above’) do not mean that freewill offerings ONLY BEGIN after the 10%. In fact, you’d get a full picture in reading the official delineation of the AofG position found in the General Council Bylaws. Please ask, and I’d be glad to oblige the links by email, if posting them may not be approved.

    All in Christ do not have equal ministries accorcding to that formula.

    Please carefully read the following:
    – 1 Corinthians 12:18, 27-30;
    – Ephesians 4:11-12;
    – Hebrews 13:7
    – 1 Peter 5:1-2, 5
    How do you reconcile your own formula of “equal ministries” with what we find in God’s Word in those verses? You really should take the time to study more on leadership in the Church before you draw hasty and deeply flawed conclusions.

    In all, thank you for the opportunity to yet identify some of the problems in typical anti-tithing arguments. I’ve been there and out, so there’s nothing strange about them. The tendency for people to manufacture wild canard for their arguments leaves a question on my mind: WHY do some believers resort to deliberate falsehood just to push their own default position?

    May the grace of the Lord Jesus help us to genuine godliness.

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