6 Reasons to Debate Tithing

tithing debate

Many have asked me, “why tithing”? Of all the things to study and debate, why have i chosen tithing? Right off the bat i don’t really know why the topic of tithing fires me up so much, so i found 5 good reasons to get fired up about the tithing debate.

The Love of Money is the Root of all Kinds of Evil

I almost said that money is the root of evil. I think i write that because my mind is always on autopilot. Money is not the root of all kinds of evil. The LOVE of money is. Sure, tithing is a good discipline to rid greed from those who are giving, but what about those who are receiving? There are many out there who are extorting God’s word for the gain of money. Many of you think about televangelists, but that’s just a few on TV. There are many more who desire more and more money to build more and more of their kingdom. Sure, many of them think that God gave them this vision to do this or that. Tithing allows them to build their own dreams and mandate others to pay for it. It’s not necessarily that they love money; they love what money can build.

Tithing in the New Testament Church is Against Scripture

Plain and simple and probably the most important factor that inspires my quest against tithing. I’m not going to spout out any scripture to prove tithing wrong. I’ve done plenty of that already in the past. I believe with all of my heart, that tithing is unbiblical. I do not have an ounce of doubt in my heart or mind about it. I wish i could take what i’ve learned and play it in a movie, or write it in a book. Words and pictures will not do justice to what the Spirit of God has enlightened in my heart.

Tithing Extorts the Poor and Excuses the Rich

I’ve seen churches investigate many members to figure out if they are tithing. If a rich man has been tithing, he is let go and forgot about. But if a poor man is not tithing, and needs help or assistance in paying his bills, the church will first investigate his finances to see if he tithed. If he did, then they will check his spending records and make sure he isn’t spending too much on other things.

The church will try everything to get out of helping this poor man. They will show how he can spend less here and there, and yet still ask him to pay his tithes. They think no one has an excuse not to tithe. They don’t even realize that in scripture it was the poor who received tithes. What about the rich, why pick on them? They paid their tithes, didn’t they? Is a tithe really what God expects of them or is that what WE are expecting from them? Tithing is unjust and unfair.

Jesus Talked about Money More than any other Subject

Obviously nothing has more of a hold on people than money does. If Jesus talked about it so much than it must be crucial. I’m not a financial guru. I flunked accounting in highschool. But i do know that the flow of money going in and out of the church should be a much discussed topic. Disagree? Don’t mark my words, look at Jesus’. He talked about it more than sin, heaven, and hell.

Giving statistics stated that religious organizations brought in 103 billion dollars last year. We have done very little with the 103 billion dollars and we complain that we could do more if only more tithed. It is calculated that we spend 85% of what we take in on ourselves. As a matter of fact only 3% goes towards ministering to the needs of the unsaved. No wonder the world thinks the Church is greedy. It’s not because we are constantly asking for money. it’s because we keep it all to ourselves.

This is besides the point. How the Church receives it’s funds is important. If tithing is in place then people are not free to give to other places that God is leading them to give. Instead people are handcuffed to an organization that spends more and more on themselves.

Tithing Challenges me to Study God’s Word

I will admit, i’m not the encourager or exalter in the group. I like to dissect things with my mind and find solutions to fix the problems. If i see a problem i will speak up. I won’t if everything is going right, i just expect it to. I’m very opinionated, and debates really fuel my fire. I love them. Am i contentious. Sometimes, yes. I try to work on that. I don’t like to pick fights for no reason. But i love a good challenge. There is nothing biblically wrong with wanting to debate God’s word. Your motives must be pure, and you have to be extra careful about how your attitude shows Christ.

Everyone has their methods to help them get fired about God. For some, it’s to look for those who need emotional help. Others, it’s to look for a those who need some teaching. It’s all different for all of us. We are all wired different ways. I’d like to say that the greatest Christian is the one who is most balanced, but more than likely that Christian doesn’t fit in many places. We are different members with different things that drive our motivation. If we are the hands, then doing things with our hands motivates us. If we are the head, then using our thinking or leadership skills motivates us. We are all driven by different things.

So many People are Believing the Wrong Thing

This just hurts to see the number of people who are believing the wrong thing. I’m on a quest to help as many as i can to see the truth in God’s Word. If there was no one to convince, then i probably wouldn’t get into tithing. But it’s a challenge for me, and there are many who need help, and do not know the truth. At one time i didn’t know the truth. You can read about it in my tithing testimony. It is great to hear testimonies from those who have been freed by the teachings of God’s word about tithing. I do not want to diminish the fact of giving sacrificially, but at the same time, people are locked up in chains and need to be freed from the tithing mandate first in order to truly understand sacrificial giving.

Jared Bartholomew is the author of www.tithing.com. There are over 300 articles written on research and reviews about tithing information.

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365 comments on “6 Reasons to Debate Tithing
  1. Sam says:

    Thank you Robert G Fox, for clearing that out. The agenda for Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Seventh day adventist coming on this site is to deceive and try to recruite christians to join their churches.

    The bible is the only written word of God. Apostle Paul put a double curse on anyone who adds or teach anything to deceive christians from the gospel of Grace.

  2. Debradoo says:

    First let me say here .. There is some wonderful truths here in some of these anti-tithing posts. (Some that I would love to ‘hijack’ in future debates? JK!) But, I do notice that whenever the subject of money comes into play .. there is a sudden loss of common spiritual sense in those opposed to tithing. Let me give some for instances ..

    Many (most actually) of those opposing the tithe use.. the ‘fleecing of televangelists’ to promote their stance and claim that tithing allows them to build their dreams and have others pay for such.
    However ..
    quote.. In a recent study conducted by the Barna Group, it was learned that only five percent of Americans gave away at least 10 percent of their income (to the church or any charitable organization) in 2007. This level of giving was not a great surprise, as it has been around five percent since 2000.. end quote
    If tithers are making televangelists (and other pastors) rich, then these 5 percent must be giving more than a mere 10 percent since so very few few Christians are faithful to tithe. It seems that one of the strongest arguments for keeping the tithe is that there are hordes of corrupt pastors and teachers that are desperate for our money and using our tithes to build their elaborate churches and live an elaborate lifestyle. If this is the case .. then why give anything to a church? Why not use this ‘scenario’ for keeping any money at all from going out to churches. Is there somewhere in the Bible that says having a well to do pastor or an elaborate church is a sin? What about the ark of the Covenant? Check out Exodus 25-27 .. Now THAT is elaborate! And again, the temple that Solomon built .. WOW!

    Here’s another greatly used argument against the tithe ..
    The poor man is made to tithe and some have lost everything due to the tithe. They lose their homes, their jobs, their cars, etc.

    Seriously .. because of 10 percent?? Have you done the math? If a man makes 400.00 dollars a week and tithes 40 of that 400.00 .. you truly think this 40 dollars is going to save his home or his job or his car, etc.? Seems to me that someone that allows 10 percent of their income to make or break them has a bigger problem than tithing 10 percent. (And they might want to take a money management course.) I mean, what are people going to do with this new health bill? They will be losing a good chunk of their paychecks and too many will be blaming the government for not being able to manage their own finances. Sheesh.

    And here is another argument against the tithe ..

    “It is not in the New Testament and we are under a New Covenant.”

    There are lots of things that we embrace today as Christians that were under the Old Covenant .. Observing the Sabbath. Taking Communion. Obeying the 10 commandments. Tithing is more than just an Old Covenant command .. It is a principle that works in this earth today!

    And here is another ..

    “People must be freed from the command to give”.

    Let me first emphasize that the tithe is not giving. It is paying. (It is not yours to give!) God owns all. Everything. We own nada. Nothing. When we pay our 10 percent, then in exchange God gives us 90 percent. Out of this 90, we can give an offering or make a donation or support a charity, etc. (It cannot be an offering if it belongs to God.) God owns 100 percent of all we have or will have. When we give Him 10 percent, this allows Him to give us the 90 percent. Now, we are free to become His stewards. There is freedom in tithing. The freedom is having the 90 percent with which we can be led to use as the Holy Spirit instructs us. But, if we do not give 10 percent then God cannot give us the 90 and we will be stealing from God and using HIS money to brag about our generosity. (This principle is overlooked time and time again by the non-tither.) There is no freedom in disobeying God. There can only be freedom when we obey God. (We all need to ask God to help us see the ‘tithe’ through HIS eyes.)

    Here is another argument used by the tithing opponents ..

    “If we are commanded to give 10 percent then we are not able to give freely from our hearts or be led by the Spirit.”

    Not true. When we pay (again, this is NOT giving) our 10 percent, we have 90 percent that we can use to give freely from our hearts and/or or to be led of the Spirit.

  3. Debradoo,
    There is so many things that need to be cleared up in your statements that i don’t even know where to begin.

    First, the fleecing of God’s people should not be considered support against tithing as you state. There are evil people, who do evil things. As an anti-tither, i recognize that tithing is an abusive tool to manipulate God’s people. They are just stories of abuse, they are not proof against tithing.

    There is nothing wrong with having a well-to-do pastor or elaborate church building. But i guess we could say there was nothing wrong with the rich young ruler. I guess Jesus was over-exaggerating when he said it was harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Next, the poor man received the tithes in the Old Testament, he did not pay them. Also, if you did not grow any crops or raise any animals. This means that carpenters, bankers, lawyers, and doctors did not tithe a single cent off their occupational income. So, yes, seriously! A poor man should not have to pay tithes.

    Third, the ‘lots of things that we embrace in the old testament’ is not a blanketed statement to obey all things in the old testament; or for that matter to choose on our own what to obey. The 10 commandments was based on moral laws, but in and of itself it was a civil code. We support civil laws against murder because we embrace the moral law against hate. We support civil laws against adultery because we embrace moral law against lust. We support civil laws against theft because we embrace the moral law against covetousness. Tithing is not a principle, it is a standard. Sacrificial giving is a principle.

    Fourth, I agree that tithing is paying. Just like i pay my taxes, i cannot give them. Giving is a choice, paying is not.

    Finally, if you believe that tithing is commanded, you cannot give your 10% freely or according to the instructions of the holy Spirit. NO ONE disagrees that tithers have 90% of their income to give freely.

    I used to split my giving into tithes and offerings, and give my tithes first; until one day it dawned on me – that if i give my freewill offerings how i’m suppose to in the first place then why have a command to tithe?

    – jared

    • Debradoo says:

      Hey Jared, nice to meet you.
      Honestly, I see the failure to tithe or to promote against the tithe as a ‘no fault’ and/or ‘no accountability’ type doctrine. I see this type of doctrine over and over in the debates of healing, prosperity, speaking in tongues, etc. The masses gravitate towards an easy and convenient gospel, that allow them to be slack concerning their hearts, their minds, and their money. This type of doctrine will strive to explain the Word of God according to human experience and never come face to face with their own humanity or sinful human nature. (In other words, it brings God down to their level instead of rising up to meet His level.) It is a doctrine steeped in ‘poor me’ and ‘look at what they have done to me’ and is based on emotions and it creates a ‘victim’ type mentality. Emotions and need do not move God. Faith does. It also puts man before God and even goes so far as to pretty much trash our salvation. This type doctrine also seeks to use the Bible to verify it’s claims. Hordes of OT scripture are used over and over to confirm that we are no longer under the OT or Old Covenant. In other words, if we want to know how “NOT to TITHE” we are told to study the OT. But, if we want to know if it is YES TO TITHE”, we are accused of using OT. Double standards.

      There is no longer a ‘poor me’. Jesus came to give us life and give it more abundantly. If we fail to have this abundant life then we are falling short, not God. Where do we fall short? In our obedience and in our understanding of God and His Word and His Ways.

      So as you can see, I am as passionate about promoting the tithe as you are about doing away with the tithe. But, truly, I come in respect and if I offend anyone, I apologize as this is not my intention. As the subject of ‘tithing’ fires me up as well. And I cannot explain why any more than you can except to believe that it is a desire placed in me by God.

      Let me ask you .. What goes through your mind when you hear or see ‘the love of money is the root of all evil’? I mean, what pictures do you see in your mind? I ask this because most people see some rich and powerful dictator(s) with wicked and evil intentions running things with an iron scepter and breaking the backs of the poor or less fortunate. A kind of slave and slave driver image. (Most of the USA is programmed to think in this fashion.) I admit to seeing it this way myself, until God corrected me. However, this is not at all what God meant for us to see when He said this. Even the poorest of the poor can have a love for money. They love it so much, it becomes elusive for them. They love money so much they covet, they steal, they lie, they cheat, they rob, they murder, etc. Few will ever get rich by stealing or lying or robbing or cheating. Most rich men today did not break the backs of the poor man to attain their riches.

      quote .. There is nothing wrong with having a well-to-do pastor or elaborate church building. But i guess we could say there was nothing wrong with the rich young ruler. I guess Jesus was over-exaggerating when he said it was harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.. end quote

      When God speaks of the rich young ruler He is speaking of someone that has put money and possessions ahead of God. He is not opposed to the rich young ruler being rich or his riches, but instead, He is opposed to his fearing to let his riches go and believe God that He will supply his needs and return to him what he had plus more. This rich young ruler is in fear and that is the downfall here. Not the riches. Obviously the rich young ruler recognized the divinity of Jesus or he would not have approached Him. Still, though knowing, he refused to give up what he had and then do as Jesus told him to do. (His possessions were more important than obeying Jesus.) Fear breeds disobedience and a failure to put God first. When Jesus makes a comment about the camel and the eye of the needle, notice what His disciples say .. “Who then can be saved?” This must mean that the disciples and Jesus both had money or else they would have not said such as they would have been assured of their own salvation. God is rich. Jesus became poor, meaning He is and was rich. So, God could not possibly have a problem with riches or being rich.

      The tithe has more functions than just to take care of the poor.

      quote .. Finally, if you believe that tithing is commanded, you cannot give your 10% freely or according to the instructions of the holy Spirit. NO ONE disagrees that tithers have 90% of their income to give freely… end quote

      Right. However there is 90 percent with which I CAN give freely and which I CAN give according to the instructions of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, I am freely giving as well as being obedient with the tithe…right?

      • YOU SAID: I see the failure to tithe or to promote against the tithe as a ‘no fault’ and/or ‘no accountability’ type doctrine.
        ME: This is where you are wrong. Since when does grace mean no accountability? Liberty is not a license to fulfill my flesh, just as salvation by grace is not a reason to live however i wish. Should we implement the levitical laws to force a ministerial class to serve because we are worried that people might just live how they please?

        YOU SAID: if we want to know how “NOT to TITHE” we are told to study the OT. But, if we want to know if it is YES TO TITHE”, we are accused of using OT.
        ME: No, i want you to use the OT, but i want you to be consistent and honest. When you use the OT to claim the poor should tithe, and yet, it is plain as day that the poor received a tithe; then of course i’m going to use the OT against you. When you claim from the OT that a tithe is 10% of your first fruits, I will show how the OT shows that tithing is not first fruits. What do you expect?

        YOU SAID: “What goes through your mind when you hear or see ‘the love of money is the root of all evil’?”
        ME: The love of money is the root of all ‘KINDS’ of evil. It is not the root of ‘All’ evil. it wasn’t the root in Satan’s fall, and it wasn’t the root cause in the garden. That’s the first thing. Second, I am not envious of the wealthy. Quite the opposite. I would consider myself supportive of them. I couldn’t agree more that Few will ever get rich by stealing or lying or robbing or cheating and that Most rich men today did not break the backs of the poor man to attain their riches. It’s sad to see that most believe that those at the top of the ladder stepped on someone else to get there.

        I am against the ministries and wolves in charge who use the name of God and guilt to solicit money in order to fulfill a lavish lifestyle. I don’t need a neon sign from God showing me which ministers possess the love of money.

  4. Debradoo says:

    QUOTE .. Fourth, I agree that tithing is paying. Just like i pay my taxes, i cannot give them. Giving is a choice, paying is not… end quote

    QUOTE.. I used to split my giving into tithes and offerings, and give my tithes first.. end quote

    Can you see the inconsistency here? In the first instance you claim that you agree that the tithe is paying and not giving. But, in the second instance you claim that you gave your tithes first (you never mentioned that you paid your tithes). So, you were never a tither to begin with .. right?
    Many people see the tithe as something that is sacrificial on their part. The tithe is what we owe God and is not sacrificed. And the poor man owes God just as well as the rich man or the middle class man. Why? Because the tithe benefits us, not God. Not the churches. Not the rich pastors. The tithe was put into mandate because it benefits us. And when we benefit then the Kingdom of God benefits.

    You say you are against the ministries and wolves that are in charge that use the name of God and guilt to solicit money in order to fufill a lavish lifestyle. What about the ones that are supporting this lavish lifestyle? Aren’t they held accountable or at fault? Are not those that are coerced with guilt and the name of God, just as guilty as the ones that are doing the fleecing (if not MORE SO, they should know better!)?

    Jesus commended the poor widow who threw in her money. Was Jesus standing there and allowing this woman to be fleeced? And Elijah took the last morsel of food from a widow and her son. Do you consider him to be guilty of fleecing? It is the job of a pastor or preacher to teach the tithe and to receive the tithe. Yes, there are crooked ones and they are using this teaching to benefit their own lives. But what does that matter? The tithe is between the tither and God. Not the pastor or preacher. It isn’t a matter of ‘if they support the pastor’ but a matter of ‘why’. And if their ‘why’ is because they desire to be obedient to God and believe His Word, then God will deal with them. And if their desire is for the pastor or preacher, then shame on them anyway and they are asking for trouble.
    There are two classes of tithers (maybe more, but only two that come to mind right now). Those that tithe to the church and those that tithe to God. They both look like the same person. But, they are not and only God can judge their hearts.

    Tithing is paying to God what belongs to Him (it is not about the church or the pastors). Offerings are sacrificed from the ninety percent that is left and should be Spirit led giving.

    • Giving/Paying . . . are you kidding me? You are arguing semantics!? You are right. I repent! I will crawl on my hands and knees around the world as penance.

      i speak out about the wolves to prevent even more people from being coerced. Are you the referee going around making sure everyone is being fair? Reminds me of my childhood. whenever my brother would be punished for something he would say, “well, jared did it too”

      Did Jesus flip the table over of the fleecing money changers? it would be good to stay on one subject here. Either fleecing or tithing. I view them as different subjects.

  5. Debradoo et. al.,

    I have looked at all of your posts, and I do not see one single scripture to support any of your claims. Same for those who are debating with her. Let us not forget the central part our the message as anti-tithers, the Word of God. The pro-tithers can use semantics, statistics, cliches, one-liners, etc., but when you go to the Word of God, the victory is ours irregardless of the debate.

    Comment about King Solomon’s Temple as it relates to building big churches; THERE WAS ONLY ONE!!!!!

    The church NEVER owed the tithe to anyone. The tithe was paid by CERTAIN JEWS to the LEVITES, who in turn tithed to the PRIESTS. Numbers 18

    Now, as I have asked before, but was never answered, and I hope it is because the individual(s) decided to study for themselves; who is God talking to in Malachi 1, 2, and 3?

    This 10%/90% foolishness ignores the FACT that we still pay taxes, possibly to the tune of 50-60% of our pay. So we are now left with at most 40%. Now this is before paying any bills. Remember that scripture,

    I Tinothy 5:8- But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

    As I have stated for some time, when debating the scriptures, always look at the side who fails to mention certain information. In this case Debradoo, you failed to mention the fact that we pay taxes, and are told that we are worse than unbelievers if we do not provide for our families. So if it were between 10% and the rent, WHO SHOULD GET PAID????????

  6. Debradoo says:

    quote .. it would be good to stay on one subject here. Either fleecing or tithing. I view them as different subjects… end quote

    Title of this message .. 6 Reasons to Debate Tithing

    quote .. I almost said that money is the root of evil. I think i write that because my mind is always on autopilot. Money is not the root of all kinds of evil. The LOVE of money is. Sure, tithing is a good discipline to rid greed from those who are giving, but what about those who are receiving? There are many out there who are extorting God’s word for the gain of money. Many of you think about televangelists, but that’s just a few on TV. There are many more who desire more and more money to build more and more of their kingdom. Sure, many of them think that God gave them this vision to do this or that. Tithing allows them to build their own dreams and mandate others to pay for it. It’s not necessarily that they love money; they love what money can build.. end quote

    Just responding to your own remarks. But, if you want to stay on one subject .. then sure. You choose. And yes, I do get serious where words are concerned. I do not view as semantics. Wrong words or carelessly chosen words can have devastating effects. Giving and paying have two complete different meanings to me (and others I presume) and bring two complete different images to mind.

    Oh and get up off the knees .. :-> JK!

  7. Debradoo says:

    Hey there Fred!

    quote .. In this case Debradoo, you failed to mention the fact that we pay taxes, and are told that we are worse than unbelievers if we do not provide for our families. So if it were between 10% and the rent, WHO SHOULD GET PAID????????.. end quote

    We are to make provisions for both. Adjusting our income to meet our needs. Both can be accomplished (and even throw in those groceries and water bill and electric bill and gas, etc.) if we know how to manage our money wisely.

  8. Tony Isaac says:

    I was a little hesitant joining in in this current discussion but curiosity has gotten the better of me. Debradoo, please what exactly are you on about? Are you trying to say that today’s church is supposed to tithe? If so, could you provide scriptures to back this up so that we can all stop go around in circles like a dog trying to catch its tail?

  9. Debradoo,
    So now you are advocating socialism, where just because I am poorer, I cannot or should not own a flat screen TV, or drive a good car that gets good gas mileage, and has a record of lasting a long time, just to PAY ten percent that God no longer requires, but instead wants our giving from the heart, not of NECESSITY. You see, tithing is of necessity, it literally is a work, and you will find with tithers, a sense of arrogance. “Oh you don’t tithe, what? Oh you are cursed with a curse.” I mean, they have to believe that non-tithers are cursed, so if they do not believe that, how can they proclaim the whole counsel of God. By the way, who gets to give testimonies in front of the church? Tithers!!!!!!!!

    You can make a budget, but that doesn’t mean that budget will be right, and it cannot account for certain issues beyond one’s control; a sick child, car repair, loss of jobs, etc. So as I said, if it’s between 10% and the rent, what does God expect you to pay? The answer is simple, all you have to say is 10% or the rent.

    Tony,
    She cannot, which is why she is playing the game of , “PASTOR SAID”! That would make for a great screen name or something. LOL!

    • Debradoo says:

      You are confusing confidence with arrogance. And I am confident. Not in my tithing .. But to Whom I belong.
      Your argument is ridiculous. The Bible says ‘thou shalt not steal’ .. And your child is starving so do you steal to feed your child? The Bible says ‘thou shalt not lie’ .. But do you justify lying when you feel trapped or feel the need to lie?
      We can justify anything we want. Hey we got grace right? See the ridiculousness of your argument?

      • You did not answer my question. Instead, you are trying to present Red Herrings.

        You have been justifying tithing with absolutely no apologetics, hermeneutics, or biblical exegesis at all. Actually, you have made a grave error in using the law to ridicule my argument.

        Tithing is not a law, it is an ordinance of the law. When you have the chance, please go to Ephesians and Colossians. There you will find out what happened to ordinances and why.

        If you decide to read those books, then ask yourself why Jesus died and what did His death do? I hope you will crack your bible open for a change. By using the Law the way you do, you are subjecting yourself to a bondage of which you do not understand.

        Grace is not a cloak for sin, but the law followed in one part, must be followed in all. You nor I are capable of doing such…….

        • Debradoo says:

          Tithing is a command for the tither. For the tither .. Tithing is as much a commandment as any of the commandments of God. Therefore your argument (to tithe or not to tithe according to finances) is baseless to me.
          I do not see tithing as bondage. I see tithing as a privilege and a hope. Those that have been convicted of the tithe, see the tithe as a means of obedience and with obedience comes joy and peace and a freedom that is like no other. Conviction also means that no matter the circumstances, tithing is not an option that is convenient ONLY when there is sufficient funds.
          Loving thy neighbor can become bondage if one has an unruly and unjust and hateful neighbor and they do not seek God for guidance and strength to remain in love. Loving God with all our minds and all our hearts and all our strength can become bondage if we do not seek the Holy Spirit to guide us in how to love God. Anything in the Bible can become bondage. And anything can be done in the flesh too. We can pray in the flesh and read our Bibles in the flesh and praise and worship in the flesh. But, we are called to be led of the Spirit.
          I have read Ephesians and Colossians, but I do not find in either book that tithing has become obsolete or is old law and no longer required.

          • Then you are not reading closely. Go to the Old Testament where it tells you that tithing is an ordinance. You must search the scriptures. You are also ignoring the fact that monetary income was NEVER used to pay tithes.

            But I know what this is Debradoo. You are a Charasmatic, who uses the Holy Spirit to hide your scriptural inadequacies to justify your stand. Don’t take it personal, I’ve been there. Tithing is a command for the tither… Where’d you get that from? Now you have me using contractions. Show me where tithing food and animals turned into to money. That’s about as hard as proving that humans evolved from monkeys. Let’s see if you can find that “transitional” doctrine of food and animals to money, and be as successful as the evolutionists to find a “transitional” fossil to prove their theory.

            No worry, I will supply the scriptures later tonight, Lord willing.

      • Tony Isaac says:

        Debradoo,

        Following your line of argument IS a very excruciating ordeal! I went back to read your previous comments and found out you never provided any verse of scripture to back up what you are saying. Forget the riddles and the rhetorical statements and provide scriptures to support what you are saying.

        According to you, we do not give tithes but pay them and when we do, God gives us 90% to do with as we please. Nice argument but show us were that is written in scripture. Show us scriptures!

        • Debradoo says:

          Hello and forgive me Tony. The last thing I want to do is be excruciating. There is wayyy too much of that on this site .. lol. :D Bear with me.

          quote .. According to you, we do not give tithes but pay them and when we do, God gives us 90% to do with as we please. Nice argument but show us were that is written in scripture. Show us scriptures!.. end quote

          It has taken me awhile to get back to you because you are the only one that has asked me for scripture. And I wanted to gather my scripture and present my basis for believing the tithe is for today. Let me take you through the Bible as God took me through ..

          15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

          There are some good arguments (using scripture) that seek to convict against tithing in this dispensation of grace. But, this is the first instance we see that God keeps back something for Himself and is long before the laws of Moses. I realize this does not give solid evidence that this is a tithe. But, it does support the principle’s of tithing.

          3 In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the ground, 4 and Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering, 5 but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. 6 The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

          Here, we have an instance that does not use the word tithe but resembles very much the tithe and offering principle. Cain has done wrong with his offering and God warns him that sin is the consequence. How is this possible if there is no law? (Romans 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.) Clearly Cain has violated a law with his offering and sin is the result. (1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.) Therefore, God must have instituted laws long before He gave the laws to Moses. How does it come about that Noah is measured as a man of righteousness and all other people are unrighteous if there is no law with which to measure the righteousness or lack thereof? Noah made sacrifices and with clean animals. There is no recorded law, so what instituted clean or unclean? Genesis 7:2 (God distinguishes between clean and unclean long before the Mosaic law) and Genesis 8:20 (Noah knows the differences between clean and unclean).

          18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

          19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

          20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

          Here is the first mention of the word ‘tithe’. Many claim that Abraham (Abram) gives from the heart. But, since tithing is so widespread throughout even the pagan nations .. It must have been instituted somewhere as a law and Abraham was paying tithes according to the law (which he followed in his heart by faith, since the laws are not recorded yet .. Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws). And ..Romans 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
          Since we later learn that God will require tithes, then we are sure He is the same God that required tithes of Abraham by faith. Many claim that tithing is a pagan principle, but God would never use a pagan principle and we know He later institutes and mandates and regulates a tithe. In other words, the devil copies God (adopts His tithe principle) .. God does not copy the devil. Abraham recognizes a man of God and the man of God recognizes Abraham. And blessings and the tithe are exchanged between the two. (This is later evident in Malachi 3:8-12 8 “Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. “But you ask, ‘How do we rob you?’ “In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit,” says the LORD Almighty. 12 “Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the LORD Almighty.) Here again in Malachi we see the tithe and blessings are interchangeable as with Abraham and Melchizedek. And Prov. 3:9&10 work well within this principle. Tithing is done before the law, the law simply regulates the tithe.

          Hebrews 7 goes on to explain the relationship between Melchizedek and Abraham. The word emphasizes that Melchizedek did not inherit his priesthood (as did the Levites) but was made a priest by God. And according to this chapter, the Levitical priests themselves paid tithes genetically through Abraham. (LOTS of tithing being done before the laws of Moses.) Hebrews 7:8 verifies that tithes are being received even in the days of Paul’s apostleship. I have read that the word ‘spoils’ that is used in Hebrews 7:4 is not in the original greek text. But that the original greek uses ‘the choicest parts’. Now, the Levitical priesthood has been replaced by the Judah priesthood. We are connected to Abraham through Christ. Gal. 3:29 and Jesus Christ is our High Priest (rather than Melchizedek) to whom we bring our tithes.

          Jacob even understood and knew that God was a blesser and that He required a tithe .. Genesis 28:20 Then Jacob made this vow: “If God will indeed be with me and protect me on this journey, and if he will provide me with food and clothing, 21 and if I return safely to my father’s home, then the Lord will certainly be my God. 22 And this memorial pillar I have set up will become a place for worshiping God, and I will present to God a tenth of everything he gives me.”

          This is not Jacob promising God a tithe or bargaining with God, but Jacob believing God for protection and blessing. Jacob has learned from his ancestors that tithing and blessings are interchangeable.

          If the tithe is holy to the Lord, then the offering is not. .. (Lev. 27:30 Does not say that the offering is holy.) All belongs to God. And the Bible clarifies over and over that the tithe is what we pay or render back to God. It belongs to Him. We rob God when we keep the tithe because it belongs to Him. “Tithe” is “maaser or maasrah” and is translated tenth or tenth part and in the greek is “apodekatoo” and means payment. Now, the offering is what we give from our hearts and often we are led by the Holy Spirit in the amount. The offering is ‘ainesis’ which means praise. Or ‘anathema’ which means gift. (There are other offerings as well.) The offering is what we give after we have made the tithe payment. How can we give God a gift if He owns everything? God told the Israelites in Malachi that they were robbing Him of tithes AND offerings. The offerings throughout the Bible never come before the tithe. The tithe is first, then the offerings. The offering is meaningless without the tithe first.

          Deut. 12:5-6 But you are to seek the place the LORD your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.

          Now this is just a simple draft of some of the revelations I have received about tithing. And I admit to not getting too caught up in the letter of the law (such as a verse by verse explanation of the tithing according to the Mosaic laws). There is much of the Word of God (especially the OT and even a lot concerning the tithes!) that I do not understand the why’s and how to’s. But, tithing according to faith, I do understand.

          • Tony Isaac says:

            …mmmhhh! Well I asked for scriptures! I actually have no idea what to say about what you have written. It is pretty much all that pro-tithers say and nothing more. From my little knowledge of scripture, I believe that the tithe actually means “A TENTH”. So are you trying to say that there were only ten trees in the Garden of Eden with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil being the tenth? In what way does this support the tithing principle? And are you indeed saying that anything in scripture that has been separated unto God can be called a tithe? Why would God choose to call some things a tithe and not others?

            Unto Cain and Abel. Why do you think Cain’s offering was rejected and Abel’s was accepted? Abel brought the tithe and Cain didn’t? Scripture never says that! A quick look at the book of Hebrews tells us why Cain’s offering was rejected – it was not offered in faith and this had nothing to do with what was given. No tithes there!

            Moving unto Abraham. I have no idea what to make of your explanation of Abraham’s encounter with Melchizedek. It is heavy laden with personal ideas and loads of guesswork. Anytime God wanted Abraham to do anything in scripture, God told him directly but we never see God instructing Abraham to tithe to Melchizedek. Even if God did, does that make it relevant to today’s church? Then where does that leave animal sacrifice? What about circumcision? Lest I forget, polygamy also becomes relevant and so does sacrificing our children. There is no single verse of scripture that enjoins anyone to tithe because of Abraham.

            Your explanation of Hebrews shows you truly have no idea what you are talking about. From the Pentateuch, we understand that the Levites were not allowed to do any form of secular work and were the only ones allowed to partake of the holy things of the Tabernacle. As a result, the remaining 11 tribes were commanded to give a tithe to the Levites while the Levites in turn were commanded to give a tithe of the tithe they had received to the High priest. According to you, Jesus is now our High hence we give him our tithes but you forgot the scriptures that say today’s believers are priests. And if we are all priests we should be giving a tithe of tithes we receive to Jesus. The question now is who should be tithing to us?

            You are really trying to dazzle us with Hebrew and Greek names. These definitions you have provided, in what context were they used? And how does the tithe being a tenth or a payment affect today’s church? Don’t confuse yourself by trying to read too much into what has been written in scripture and say God has given you a revelation. God can never contradict Himself!
            In scriptures money was never given as tithes nor as offerings to God and that offerings means praise is totally irrelevant. It can mean worship for all I care but that does not make it relevant to today’s church. Are you also saying all the types of offerings God commanded the children of Israel to give are relevant today? Those were the offerings being referred to in the book of Malachi. So should we be giving sin offerings, guilt offerings, wave offerings et all?

            Anyways my only advice is – go back and study this topic properly. You obviously do not understand it the way you like to think. And I think arguing with you is pretty pointless.

  10. Where in the Bible Were Tithes Abolished?

    1. WHO #1: The Levitical servants to the priests who received the first whole tithe have been abolished. See Numbers 18:21-24. Modern equivalents to the Levites are unpaid ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc.

    2. WHO #2: OT priests who received a tenth of the tithe (only 1 per cent) have been abolished. See Num 18:25-28 and Neh 10:38.

    3. WHAT: The definition of tithes as only food miraculously increased by God from inside His holy land of Israel has been abolished and replaced with the false unbiblical definition of income. See Leviticus 27:30-34 and 14 other texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Yet money was common in Genesis.

    4. WHERE: The destination of the OT tithes first to the Levitical cities some to the Temple has been abolished. See Neh 10:37b and Mal 3:10.

    5. WHEN: The time to tithe has been abolished. The Levitical tithe was paid yearly in the Levitical cities. The second festival tithe was eaten at the three festivals. The third poor tithe was kept in the home every third year. Tithes totaled 23 1/3 per cent.

    6. WHY #1: The covenant which prescribed them was abolished per Heb 8:8-13; Gal 4:21-26′ 2 Cor 3:6-10.

    7. WHY #2: The “commandment” for Levites and priests to collect tithes was “annulled” per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18.

    8. WHY #3: The law which condemned believers has been rendered of no effect when the believer died in Christ per Romans 7:4. No law can tell a dead person what to do.

    9. HOW #1: Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances per Eph 2:13. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.

    10. HOW $2: Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances, per Col 2:14. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.

    11. HOW #3: The Temple which tithes supported was abolished in AD 70. God’s temple is now within each believer per 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20.

    12. HOW #4: The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in AD 70. God’s priesthood is now within every believer per 1st Peter 2:9-10.

    13. HOW #5: The blessings and curses of tithing as part of the whole law have been abolished per Galatians 3:10-13.

    Would you continue to send money to a church after

    1. The building is destroyed?

    2. The preacher has been defrocked?

    3. The workers have found other jobs?

    4. The members have all left?

    5. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?

    6. The purpose for the church no longer exists?

    7. You have died?

  11. Debradoo says:

    quote .. There is no single verse of scripture that enjoins anyone to tithe because of Abraham.. end quote

    Not true .. God enjoined them .. Hebrews 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, PAYED tithes in Abraham.

    quote .. Scripture never says that! A quick look at the book of Hebrews tells us why Cain’s offering was rejected – it was not offered in faith .. end quote

    I could not agree more. Abraham tithed in faith as did all those before the tithe was integrated into the law.

    quote .. Your explanation of Hebrews shows you truly have no idea what you are talking about.. end quote

    Your interpretation of Hebrews shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

    quote .. According to you, Jesus is now our High hence we give him our tithes but you forgot the scriptures that say today’s believers are priests.. end quote

    Who says I forgot? You think I do not know I am of a royal priesthood?? And with that .. Let me remind you once again of Hebrews 7:9 Pay attention Tony, don’t wanna have to smack you with the ruler! :-)

    quote .. Don’t confuse yourself by trying to read too much into what has been written in scripture and say God has given you a revelation… end quote

    Not confusing me .. but can see it is having a devastating effect on you. :D

    quote .. In scriptures money was never given as tithes nor as offerings to God and that offerings means praise is totally irrelevant.. end quote

    Deuteronomy 14:24 And if the distance is too long for you to carry your tithe, or the place where the Lord your God chooses to set His Name [and Presence] is too far away for you, when the Lord your God has blessed you,

    25Then you shall turn it (the tithe) into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and shall go to the place [of worship] which the Lord your God has chosen.

    26And you may spend that money for whatever your appetite craves, for oxen, or sheep, or new wine or strong[er] drink, or whatever you desire; and you shall eat there before the Lord your God and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

    Ask the Holy Spirit for interpretation when you read the Bible. God help you to understand.

    • Where does it say by faith Abraham paid tithes. Actually he was implementing a PAGAN practice. Abraham tithed spoils from victory.

      That’s right Deborah. You take the tithe (food or animal) and sell it for money. You are saying that we should tithe money, but where is your cow? Where is your corn?

      The Holy Spirit has given us plenty of other scriptures that help us put everything in its proper context. If the Holy Spirit tells you one thing and someone else another, someone is being misled or lying.

      • Gwaine says:

        Dear Fred Hatchett,

        As a ‘minister’, you should also know that you’re fostering what you DO NOT read in God’s Word. The Bible does not mention or even suggest that Abraham was implementing a PAGAN practice. Since you’re concerned about someone being misled or lying, then let me help you know one fact: the idea of ‘PAGAN practice’ suggested in connection with Abraham’s tithes is a huge LIE. Period.

        If you carefully study the book of Hebrews, you will discover the simplicity of the fact that Abraham’s tithes was not an ‘implementation’ of a ‘pagan’ practice. If you insist it was, please let me know – then I would be most glad indeed to ask you simple questions that might help you rethink your assertions.

        • Learn some history on tithing. It was practiced by pagans BEFORE Abraham.

          • Gwaine says:

            Where in God’s Word do you find ‘paganism’ connected with Abraham’s tithes? Why do you folks keep recycling this obviously shamless lie?

          • Excuse me sir, but were animals being sacrificed by
            pagans prior to the law? Were altars being erected to deities
            prior to the law? Many things of pagan origin or that pagans were doing are recorded as
            being done prior to the law. Just because historical acts
            are not recorded in the Bible does not mean they didn’t
            occur and sre not factual. There is no evidence of ABRAM,
            his name prior to God giving him his new name, being
            inspired by God to tithe. Actually, we don’t even know why
            Abram gave tithes, with the exception that it was already a
            common practice among pagans. You cannot discount
            history just because it does not fit your presupposition.
            And by the way Gwaine, I take being born again seriously,
            as well as the calling of Minister. So before you call
            something or someone a lie, it’s best to withhold judgment
            and research the facts.
            http://www.tithing.com/

            I say lay out your case on tithing instead of going back
            and forth. You all are loading up my inbox with bickering,
            although it may be relevant. If you won’t do that, cool.
            And please source your info.

        • Hebrews is the only New Testament scripture on tithing for one. Another is that it is not really what Abraham did that makes tithing so significant, but to whom he gave it. Just because tithing was practiced by pagans does not make Abraham one. But it does not mean that Melchizedek was a saint either. You can tell that the tithe Abraham gave, and the one God required of the Jews only have ONE THING in common; 10%. That’s all that’s it. There is not mention of paying 10% for spoils of war by the Jews. There is no mention of MONEY being TITHED by the Jews. You do have a spoils of war offering of 1%. The only relation this has to tithing is it corresponds to how much the priests receive (the tithe of the tithes). So Abraham’s tithe and the tithing ordinance only have one thing in common (10%). So the tithe that Abrham paid, in reality is not what was instituted by God. Also, the overall context of Hebrews 7 is to show the superiority of Christ’s priesthood, and in doing that, shows how the tithe is no longer necessary to be paid to men who die.

          One other thing about tithing is how does a PRO-tither extrapolate this practice to all Christians. Why not just certain ones, just as only certain Jews paid tithes. The problem here is that PRO-tithers make another unsubstantiated extrapolation with absolutely no scriptural or hisotrical standard to go by. They just say it.

          So from a former tithe paying fiend who doesn’t farm food or animals, I have now fruit or cows to bring to the altar. Beside, I think it would be a great idea for congregants of a church where the pastor preaches tithing to drop a couple of “maters” in the offering plate. Then it would be great if some would bring in their farm animals and leave them at the altar. I would love to see what the Pastor would do. Now he could sell those things at use the money for the upcoming feed the poor campaign.

    • Brent Howell says:

      Deut.14:24-26 God’s Word plainly defines the” tithe” as food product form only.
      Also notice The it was COMMANDED to be turned back into food product form before it could be received by anyone. So if God would not allow the “tithe” to be paid in the form of money in Deut.14:24-26 show proof were God changed his mind or scripture. This also gos on to prove that there was money in the O.T the same as today and the tithe could only be received in food product. to do other wise is going against God’s COMMANDMENT plain and simple.

      • freewillgiver says:

        Thank you Brent

        Deut.14:24-26 Is a Tea Party explosive against many Leagalisim in Evangelical Christianity today! What if Christians in the U.S. applyed the pricipals of limited biblical Christ Centered fellowship government, getting rid of entitlements and responcibility to Jesus to our institutional churches? Yes Deut 14:26 says so much! Too much freedom for the leaders who benifit now. The last are first and the first are last! Jesus wants Leaders to lead by example in risky suffering faith on earth for assured heavenly rewards.

        Christ in US!

  12. Tony Isaac says:

    Well like I said earlier, it is pointless arguing with you. You are obviously quite ignorant about the tithe and you are hell bent on promoting your personal ideas. I take my leave here but not without pointing something out to you. I said there is simply no verse of scripture that tells us to tithe money and quite ironically, the scripture you tried to use to refute my point proves it to the letter! If money was ever to be tithed, why would God bother to tell the children of Israel to convert their TITHE (agricultural produce) into money? How can you convert money to money or was it a kind of FOREX when they had to convert GBP into USD so that they could spend it?

    A typical pentecostal! No proper knowledge of the bible but full of buzz words and so called Holy Spirit revelations!

  13. Elder Joshua J. Holdstock says:

    Debradoo,
    I admire your enthusiasm. It is very apparent that more spiritual enthusiaists like you are needed to continue to combat the wave of individuals trying to damn peoples progression towards spirituality by claiming Tithing should not be paid/given. Keep it up and take comfort in the spirit of the Comforter Himself.

    One of the things I have learned from posting on this site and that is many of the “anti-thithers” fixate on only the New Testiment. ‘If it’s not in the new testiment it ain’t part of the the Gospel’ is the attitude. They think that the realitively few books that were chosen by a few guys hundreds of years after Christ lived, contained in it’s entirety every priciple and ordinance Christ taught and believed and did. They deny the presence of the Holy Spirit to guide and teach individuals truths that may not have made it past the 3rd century or may be burried in books that are concidered heretical.

    I have chucked twice now as I have read individuals preach that you or I should not “confuse yourself by trying to read too much into what has been written in scripture” then continue on to preach that if it ain’t in scripture then it ain’t so! A wise man once observed about men today, he said they, “deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;” Oh how wrong they are that believe ALL is written for if all were written there would be no contention among the various sects of religionists.

    I’ve said it before I’ll say it again, James admonishes us to “…ask of God that giveth to all men liberally and abraideth not.” He will reveal his will if you truely seek to do his will.

    Revelation from God to man is the tool and the engine that has carried the Gospel of Christ from Adam down to today. To deny the power of revelation is to deny the power of the Almighty. To bury your head in the scriptues without opening up the lines of communication with our Saviour through prayer will serve you no eternal purpose. Those on this site and elsewhere that preach scripture study without emphasizing the need for spiritual communion with our Lord during scripture study neglect the single most important part of scripture study and cannot be found worthy to teach anyone how to make toast let alone interpret the words of God in reguards to the priciple of tithing.

    People on this blog argue that you and I are an ignorant and “hell bent on promoting [our] personal ideas” as if their posts are somehow not their own personal ideas. They interpret scripture in ways that advance their personal (not spiritual) understanding of the words. They study the words of other men that give commentary on scripture written thousands of years ago, which is certainly not a bad thing, but then they take the inturpretations at face value and ask not our Heavenly Father to confirm or deny the truthfullness of the commentary.

    I come from a background that condemns the paying of tithes and offerings to clergy. Never have I nor any other clergy in my faith (unless through deceit) recieved payment for preaching or teaching the word of our Saviour. Yet, I and the church I belong to believe stongly that the payment of tithes is a spiritual law that if followed will result in the pouring out of heavens blessing such that we will not have room enough to recieve them. Beware of those who preach you should pay tithes to support clergy, or that you should not pay tithes at all for they are wolves in sheeps clothing who pervert the true purpose of tithing, which is to show your obedience (and thus love) to your Creator through sacrifice. An added benefit to tithing is that it can go towards helping the poor and needy. There is NOTHING bad, only good that can come from paying an honest tithing when you do so with faith. The fact that there is a website devoted to convincing people that they shouldn’t pay tithing is just obserd since paying it only creates good in this world.

    Past comments of mine have prompted angry anti-tithers to search me out on the web. Several commenters have told me I have no “Right” to be making comments on this blog. Some told me I wasn’t Christian??? I was confused at that one. So, I end as I started, encouraging you to speak your mind where you can and to stay close to our Heavenly Father studying the scriptures with fasting and prayer keeping an eye single to the glory of God, asking Him in faith to help you understand the words you read. You won’t convice people like Tony or Mr. Thacker that you are right and they are wrong and you shouldn’t worry about that. If it be God’s will they will be conviced by God himself and not by you or I.

    God Speed!

    • Tony Isaac says:

      Elder Joshua J. Holdstock, it is hardly surprising that you give thumbs up to Debradoo, you two deserve each other. I find it quite bemusing that someone who claims the “Levitical priesthood is not gone” would accuse someone else of denying the presence of the Holy Spirit. In all your comments, what scriptural sense did you make? None! Let use this as an example

      The Levitical Priesthood is not gone. God has given that Priesthood to many many men here in our day. Brother Hatchett, it is important to understand that God does not change with the winds and tides of man. What he did then, he does now, if it were not so then you would be saying that we are less important than those who came before us and that is simply not so! ALL Gods children are important. The priesthood is a blessing and gift from God to his people. He would not give one generation priesthood authority to then just take it away from other generations until the end of time. Answer this question honestly. Do you really believe that God, from Adam to Jesus, blessed his people with prophets, apostles, priesthoods, revelations, scripture…then bam! He says, “Alright, I think I’ve done enough, it’s time to leave them on their own.” I can say with conviction, never was that Gods way, that is not Gods way now, and I don’t forsee a loving God ever doing that in the future.

      How can you claim that the Levitical priesthood has not been done away with when scriptures say otherwise? Your above comment is so at variance with the verses of scripture below

      1 Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. 2 And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe. 3 The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven. 4 This shows that the Son is far greater than the angels, just as the name God gave him is greater than their names. Hebrew 1

      And you have such a fantastic title – ELDER! You’re quite funny though. You claim that we reject the Old Testament and cling unto the New testament. What could be farther from the truth! We used Old testament verses to show that today’s church is not required to tithe. Face it, you have nothing to say except dance around in circles and claim weird things which do not stand up to biblical scrutiny.

      Anyway, it is pointless arguing with you too anyway, God bless.

      • Elder Joshua J. Holdstock says:

        Tony,
        Do you believe that God is omnipotent?
        Do you believe that he endowed a group of men to hold and administer priesthood responsibilities such as collect tithing? (the Levites)
        Do you believe that the Levitical priesthood was taken from the earth?
        You may be surprised to find out that I too believe those three statesments. (Perhaps we deserve each other too.)
        Do you believe in the gifts of The Spirit such as the gift of tongues, the gift of interpetation of tonges, the gift of the ministering of angels. and so forth?
        Now listen close, I’m not asking you if you believe he HAS, I’m asking you… Do you believe that if God wanted to, he could restore the priesthood back to this earth?
        Do you think that IF HE WANTED TO he could give the same priesthood power back to a group of people here on the earth today?
        IF you think that he CAN, (not that he has) but if you think he has the power to do so, how would you know that he had actually done so?

        Lastly, From your comment I gather that my title of Elder doesn’t sit right with you? If that is the case you are more than welcome to simply call me Joshua. A title is what it is and that’s all it is. Although I carry much respect for the title I would never be so presumptuous as to expect you to call me anything but your Brother. We may all disagree on many things and many points of doctrine but one thing we all agree on is that we are all brothers in Christ…exept Sam…I think he kicked me out of his family.

        • Tony Isaac says:

          Elder Holdstock,

          You can call yourself anything you like. My only concern is one’s actions have to match up to the title.

          What do you mean by Do you believe that if God wanted to, he could restore the priesthood back to this earth? This is another example of one of those weird unbiblical things you come up with. The Old Testament and all its trappings were a type and shadow of what obtains in the New Testament. From the book of Hebrews we understand that Jesus is now the eternal High Priest, who has gone through the veil into heaven (the Holy of Holies) after he had offered Himself as a sacrifice for us. And has now established a new priesthood with us, all of today’s believers, as priests – And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Heb 5: 10. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 1 Pet 2: 5

          The priesthood never went anywhere, one was simply made obsolete while another one took its place! For once support any one of your statements with at least one verse of scripture and we will know if the title of “ELDER” is befitting!

      • Brent Howell says:

        Need to read Hebrews 7:12 and 18 For the priesthood being changed from Levite priesthood to king/priesthood that is why we are now royal priest according to 1 Peter 2:9 and if you be not of that priesthood which Jesus Christ is the King/Priest you are no part of him. This is how we can pertake of the shew bread “bread of Life” bread of his presence which Jesus was called.

  14. Sam says:

    Hi, When you have someone called themself “Elder” be very careful that mean he is very likely to be a mormon and they regard the book of mormon as the word of God.

    They are so deceived and lost I do not know where to begin. WARNNING !!!!!!!!!

    THEY ONLY COME TO RECUIT MEMBERS FOR THE MORMON CULT

    • Elder Joshua J. Holdstock says:

      Thanks for the warning Sam. As I offered before, I have a few friends that would love to meet with you and give you a book free of charge. Just let me know your address and I’ll have them stop by. ;)

      • Sam says:

        Hi, I am a christian now, do you want me to backslide to teach you a lesson ? I can find you anywhere you hide unless you are hidding behind a skirt.
        You are defeated and lost already, I dont want to dirty my hands with a proud and deceived time waster like you. But if you post your email I will be with you to help free you from your misery.

        • brian says:

          Sam, I have run into many people like you. Quick to judge before learning your facts. (Get to know the Mormons and their beliefs before you call them a Cult. Your comment on the Mormons being a Cult is equivalent to me calling your religion a radical terrorist group. I know nothing about you, like you apparently know nothing about the Mormons.) Nearly every comment I have read on this post is without foundation, except those posted by Elder Joshua Holdstock. He has asked several direct and simple questions, to which no one has responded (ie if God had prophets of old, why not today? Could God restore the priesthood of Levi?), other than to bash his questions. The thing I have found interesting in all these posts, is that Elder Holdstock is the only one that is saying to ask God if what he is saying is true or not. God will not lie to you. The problem is too many people don’t know how to pray if it is not already written down as a repetitive prayer, nor do they have faith enough in God to pray. You can quote whatever you want from the Bible (which was compiled, edited and published under the direction of a King, not God) or any other scripture, but unless God testifies of it’s truthfulness through his Holy Spirit to you, you cannot say whether you are right or Elder Holdstock is right. If you notice, Elder Holdstock has never said you were wrong. He has simply given you his beliefs and then said, “Let God be the judge”. Listen to God’s holy prophets and what they are telling us. Yes, I believe in a true and LIVING God. That means he behaves the same today as he did yesterday. He has a prophet on the earth today and I hope you seek him out and listen to his counsel. Don’t be like the people of the Bible and deny that a prophet exists and then try to stone them. Look at what it did to them. If you need a hint as to where you can find God’s prophet, “Don’t judge before you learn your facts”. May God be on your side My Brother.

          • “He has asked several direct and simple questions, to which no one has responded (ie if God had prophets of old, why not today? Could God restore the priesthood of Levi?), other than to bash his questions.” Brian

            That is because the question is a “could”, not a matter of reality. He HAS “A” prophet on the earth today??????????? WHO IS IT????????

            To learn about Mormonism, http://www.whatismormonism.com/

            “You can quote whatever you want from the Bible (which was compiled, edited and published under the direction of a King, not God) or any other scripture” Brian

            Now Brian, you know this is hogwash right? It was a translation of actual manuscripts, just as all OTHER Bible versions are. On the other hand, The BOM has no Ancient manuscripts or legitimate copies to support the things written in it.

  15. James says:

    The High Priest ( Arron his sons and the tribe of Levite were called and sanctify by God himself to minister in the Holy sanctuary ( Numbers 18:1-3 ) They used the blood of animals for their sin offerings and all other purification and cleansing ceremonies ordered by God yearly. If the high priest disobeyed God and not used the blood of animals to springle on the offerings that was offered they would have all died,even Moses would have died. When Jesus died the veil that was in the temple was torn. That signifies the end of the old covenant and all the ceremonial and offering laws given to Moses.

    Christians were cleansed by the blood of Jesus once and for all. Jesus was the offering that God the father accepted and His blood cleansed all our sins yesterday, today and forever.
    Gentiles can not try and go back to the old covenant and practise the law that was given exclusively to the Israelites.

    The evidence and the proof that only the Jews were called Gods people is in Genesis,Exsodus and all over the old testament. God himself killed the Eygptians when they pursued the Israelites into the red sea. Any nation that invaded or rebelled against Israel was destroyed by God because He only had a covenant with Israel

    The Egyptians,Philistines,Amalakites,and any other nation on earth apart from the Israelites were called ” Gentiles” that means you and me if you are not a Jew.

    Please, only the blood of Jesus qualifys you and me to draw near to God, not the blood of animals. Remember the veil is torn anyone can enter the Holy of Holy not just pastors or evangelist,teachers or prophet.The earthly sanctuary were the Jews used to go and give their offerings and tithes here on earth is no longer here and their are no more Levites found here on earth.

    When Jesus was here He did not receive any tithes because He was from the tribe of Judah. We follow Jesus and his example. What makes you think you can receive the tithes from christians when Jesus was not allowed by the law of Moses that God commanded Arron?
    Jesus would have sinned if He collected the tithes because the pharasies and the scripes were following him everywhere to see if he sinned against the law of Moses.

    The Levites in the time of Jesus were still collecting tithes according to the law of Moses and it was only food grown within the gates of Israel was paid to the Levites ( Mathew 23:23 ) “mint and cummin” is not money. Money was available and was given as free will offering not tithes. Thirty pices of silver was paid to Judas to betray Jesus not mint and cummin.

    Do not try and bribe God to bless you or give you favour on your finances its insulting. Did God charge you for your salvation ? Its free, Honour God with your finances but do not try to earn his blessings or pay Him incase he curses you. Jesus was made a curse for you and me, If you cant earn your salvation what makes you think you can earn his financial blessings and all other blessings in Christ ?

    • Gwaine says:

      James,

      Please let me make three points clear to you, as it appears you’ve confused a whole lot of issues.

      (1). The Bible nowhere preaches tithes as a matter of anybody’s salvation – never ever in one single verse of the Bible. So, when people try to connect the tithes with ‘sin offering’ in the OT, or with ‘the Blood of Jesus once for all’ in the NT as the reason why Christians are not to tithe at all, that is completely missing the point.

      (2). Abraham was not under the Mosaic Law when he gave tithes to Melchizedek; nor was the Mosaic Law instituted when Heb. 7:9 says that Levi paid tithes in Abraham. However, not even the Law said anything about tithes being given as a matter touching atonement. The one thing that tithes were pointing to is this: the priesthood. Melchizedek’s priesthood is superior to the Levitical priesthood – and it is the priesthood of Melchizedek (as we all know) that pertains to the new covenant in Christ.

      (3). More over, when Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek, the Levitical system had not been instituted. To then argue that there are ‘no more Levites found here on earth’ (as if the Bible restricts all tithes in the Bible to the Levitical system) is a completely baseless argument. Levi is said to have paid tithes in Abraham even before the Levitical system emerged. Guess what? Melchizedek (to whom both Abraham and Levi gave tithes) was himself not from Judah. So, when you say: “When Jesus was here He did not receive any tithes because He was from the tribe of Judah” – the same could be said of Melchizedek, for he was not of the tribe of Judah, AND YET both Abraham and Levi gave tithes to him! Even more so, the new covenant is based on the priesthood of Melchizedek – the very same man who himself received tithes!

      If therefore a Christian wishes to tithe in the NT, there is not a single verse in the entire Bible that forbids him/her from doing so. The NT writers quoted a whole lot of verses directly from the Law of Moses in teaching NT giving; yet we don’t find antitithers arguing against that fact. The difference is that we don’t follow the ‘letter’ of the OT; rather, we are called to see the spiritual principle of the OT verses for our NT living.

      The word ‘tithe’ should not be a problem: for anything you may give from your income is also a percentage of that income, whether you like it or not. When people argue long and hard against the mere word ‘tithe’ and instead talk so much about ‘freewill offering’, they are missing the whole issue indeed! No antitither will find the term ‘freewill offering’ in the NT, and yet they prefer that word. Has it ever occured to these antitithing folks that the term ‘freewill offering’ is NEVER once found in the NT?!? If antitithers want to do away with ‘tithes’ because it is an OT word, then a good place to start is to also do away with the OT word ‘freewill offering’, for that is also connected with animal sacrifices as well! See Lev. 22:21 & 23 for example.

      The point in all this is simple: give whatever you are able, and do so cheerfully – that is the NT principle (found also in the OT). Whatever you give is also a percentage of your income, and you don’t have to struggle with legalistic antitithing arguments about the Levitical system if you want to give a tenth of your earnings or income.

      To those who want to spend the rest of their lives arguing against tithe, let me say simply, that trying to stop others from tithing is not Christianity, it is legalism. If someone is giving a tenth of his income today because he wishes to do so, why not allow them do so? If, on the other hand, another is not inclined to tithe, he/she is not to be compelled to do so. What we should watch out against is this: let believers be free to choose what to do – nobody should be compelled either to tithe or to stop tithing.

      • Gwaine says:

        Edit:
        In the last line I said:
        “What we should watch out against is this. . . “
        Rather, I meant to say: “What we should watch out for is this. . .”
        I cerntainly did not mean to say we should be against letting people being free to choose what to do! :)

        • Tony Isaac says:

          Gwaine,

          Please do not bother to respond to my comment as discussing with you can be a very painful experience. I only wanted to point something out; the point you’ve raised about people giving what they are happy with is all we have been trying to say. We are apparently singing from the same hymn sheet.

          However, you seem to be one of the lucky few who have never been subjected to the manipulative, arm twisting and guilt leveling doctrine of the tithe. For churches who demand that you must tithe, anything less than 10% of what you earn is simply not good enough! They threaten, browbeat, ostracize and manipulate members of their congregation to ensure these pay “tithes”. They twist scriptures to make it appear legit such as tie it with salvation, saying you are cursed if you do not pay etc. We are not against people who give “10%” of their own freewill but against the lie and the manipulation that giving 10% of what you earn is a God given command!

          Take time out and read some of the things written in support of tithing and you will be gobsmacked! It is those lies we are speaking against!

          • Gwaine says:

            Tony,

            I understand, but I’m not a pain to anyone who desires to dialogue. Those who consider ‘Gwaine’ to be a pain at any level are the very same people who have an agenda they cannot defend. It happens everywhere, and you showed that same attitude when I visited your blog. I do not suppose you’d want to run the usual antitithing cheap errand of commenting on what I posted and then requesting I “don’t bother to respond” to yours! That is simply being pathetic.

            To be honest, I have not been singing from the same sheet as do the antitithing camp (I suppose you’d have known that by now). Antitithers do the very same things you alleged against tithers: most of the arguments ferreted by antitithers are plain manipulations and classic twists of Scripture. If antitithers are not against people who give “10%”, nobody would be reading the very dubious arguments they often force in their bid to stop everyone from tithing!

            As much as whenever I tried to discuss tithing, I’ve tried to make plain that manipulations of any sort are to be discouraged – whether such manipulations are done by pro-tithers or anti-tithers, they are just as bad as the other. If the real problem then is the manipulation to make something or anything mandatory to Christians, then let’s deal with that problem, instead of attacking “tithes” wholesale.

            I have also taken time to read most of the antitithing arguments here and elsewhere and I was staggered at the obvious duplicity and shoddy scholarship of many who just do not have any clue what they assert. This is why they hastily leave a dialogue and then resort to strawman arguments and ad hominems. Yet, these folks are pushing their own agenda while accusing tithers wholesale of “lying”. Nobody seems to be concerned about the many lies antitithers use to establish their own legalism against Christians who tithe.

      • James says:

        Gwaine, I just want to ask you a question, Can you change the ten commandments ? For example Thou shall not kill, to Thou shall not kill any white folks or African Americans but you can kill Asians then repent afterwards. If you cant change any law in the old testament what makes you think we are allowed to change the tithing law from “FOOD GROWN IN ISRAEL TO MONEY” That is absolutely stupid ,rude irresponsible and very foolish. Unless we are so deceived we dont know the diffrence between black and white or good and bad. Try reading the bible properly before you make stupid comments. Read Deuteronomy 14:22-29, Malachi 3:10, Mathew 23:23, Its says “FOOD NOT MONEY” STOP DECEIVING CHRISTIANS WITH YOUR UNEDUCATED AND UNINFORMED COMMENTS.

        • Gwaine says:

          James,

          Thank you for your rants. Sweet to read the drive of your antitithing passion! :)

          I already hinted that Christians are not called to follow the ‘letter’ of the OT; but we are rather called to see the spiritual principles of the OT so we can apply them in our NT lives of faith. Let me expound a little.

          When believers actually fail to see spiritual principles of the OT, they often fall into the error of legalism – a practice which shows so well in the argument that every line of the OT must be literally followed in a manner of exactitude! That is what Scripture means by the letter of the Law (2 Cor. 3:6). However, the NT declares that the Law itself is holy and spiritual (Romans 7:12 & 14). The problem is not with the Law, but rather with the person who fails to see its spiritual import.

          Those who fail to see the spiritual import of the OT are too busy arguing out their legalism. If we are to insist on such legalistic arguments, then you cannot even claim ANYTHING from the OT into the Christianity of the NT!

          For example, when you say that you cannot ‘change’ any law in the OT, you completely miss the point. I was not trying to ‘change’ any law in the OT, rather I was calling attention to its spiritual intent!

          When Jesus taught on the Law, He did not do away with them but rather showed their spiritual meaning – which is why murder (‘thou shalt not kill’, Deut. 5:17) was not just an outward thing but rather an inward intent of being angry without a cause (Matt. 5:22). Yet, this particular commandment is not just a matter of the ‘Ten Commandments’, because the same warning was given even before the Ten Commandments was enacted (see Gen. 9:5-6).

          A second example: those who want to argue in a legalistic manner also fail to see the spiritual principle in the Law. The Law says, ‘Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn’ (Deut. 25:4); and Paul quotes that verse of the Law when writing to Christians at least twice (see 1 Cor. 9:9 and 1 Tim. 5:18). The amazing thing is that Paul was not looking for an ‘ox‘ in a literal sense when he said that what was written in Deut. 25:4 was “altogether for our sakes”, even going on to emphasize that “For our sakes, no doubt, this is written” (1 Cor. 9:10).

          So, if Paul was quoting the Law of Moses in his epistles to Christians in Corinth, was he trying to ‘change’ anything in the Law? Nope. Rather, having quoted the Law, he went on to assert that it was written for OUR sakes – for the Christian‘s sake, without seeking to apply that verse in a literal manner as antitithers often do when arguing tithes from the Law.

          I could give you countless examples of this in the NT; however, when the apostles taught from the Law, they were not seeking a literal or legalistic application – rather, they pointed out the spiritual significance of the Law to Christians, and that is what most antitithers fail to see.

          Obviously, your rants are quite uneducated, but thanks for recommending them all the same. Christians are not called to legalism, and the earlier you get done with that legalism, the better.

          Cheers.

          • Tony Isaac says:

            Gwaine,

            How can one dailogue with someone who seems rather indecisive on where they stand regarding any issue? On the one hand you have said, people should give what they are able, then on the other hand you turn around and say those that speak against the tithe are being manipulative. That’s very partisan and so you.

            You came on my blog and I found it very difficult to understand you and your answers to most of the questions where rather pathetic and showed you have no proper understanding of scriptures. I told you that before. It appears you just enjoy argueing with everybody and refuse to listen to what others have to say. Is what we are saying so difficult to understand? What we have been saying all along is “EVERYBODY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO GIVE WHAT THEY WANT TO GIVE WITHOUT BEING MANIPULATED BY A NON EXISTENT 10% “BIBLICAL” COMMAND!”

            I blame myself though because I knew you were like this and still decided to comment. Wow!

          • James says:

            Pride is the reason why you are so deceived, try studying the bible and honour Apostle Pauls letters before you make anymore stupid comments. Its ok I dont think you have the mind to understand the letters in Galatians anyway.

  16. Taylor says:

    I recieve 855 dollars per pay check to provide for my wife and son. I’m in the Army. I volunteer. My wife and I are both pursuing degrees in Nursing so we can help others. I believe that tithing isn’t where you put a lump sum of money, it’s what you decide to do with your life and the gifts you can give to others. Last week, I gave a backpack full of nutragrain bars and bottled water to a homeless guy, this week or next month I might not do anything. One thing I am going to do is find my own causes I want to donate what little money our family can survive without. Tithing isn’t an amount, it’s a gesture.

    don’t argue with me, because I probably won’t see this site again. Just think about the .02 I just gave and move on.

  17. Russ: Gwaine, we have gone round and round before. I do not like to dialog with you because you do not seem to read anything I write.

    Gwaine: As a ‘minister’, you should also know that you’re fostering what you DO NOT read in God’s Word. The Bible does not mention or even suggest that Abraham was implementing a PAGAN practice.

    Russ: You are fostering what you do not read when you say that Abraham freely chose to tithe. Genesis 14:21 clearly suggests that the 90% was controlled by a tradition common to that time. If tradition controlled the 90% then it is logical to assume that tradition controlled the 10%. Not what is wrong with that logic? Why did the king of Sodom have to ask Abram for the persons? It was because tradition allowed him to keep all beyond the spoils of war.

    Gwaine: Since you’re concerned about someone being misled or lying, then let me help you know one fact: the idea of ‘PAGAN practice’ suggested in connection with Abraham’s tithes is a huge LIE. Period.

    Russ: Go to any public library and research the subject of spoils of war common in Abram’s time. You will find numerous articles on the subject. You teach a LIE when you insist that Abram gave in freely or in obedience to God –with no texts whatsoever.

    Gwaine: If you carefully study the book of Hebrews, you will discover the simplicity of the fact that Abraham’s tithes was not an ‘implementation’ of a ‘pagan’ practice.

    Russ: I have carefully studied the book of Hebrews. It is SILENT concerning WHY Abram tithed spoils of war. If you have any proof otherwise, let me know.

    My Bible says that the historical M was only a type of Messiah “by interpretation of his name and title.” It says that his ORDER of a king-priest (AND NOT HIS PERSON) was copied by Messiah. Why is that so hard to grasp?

    • Gwaine says:

      Russ,

      First, it’s good to know you don’t like to dialogue with me. I wonder then why you took the trouble to comment on my observations to ‘minister’ Fred Hatchett? I’ll only make some observations to yours (if you would bother to read them), hoping you’d be more enabling for a discussion than in the past.
      ____

      Russ: “You are fostering what you do not read when you say that Abraham freely chose to tithe. Genesis 14:21 clearly suggests that the 90% was controlled by a tradition common to that time. If tradition controlled the 90% then it is logical to assume that tradition controlled the 10%. Not what is wrong with that logic? Why did the king of Sodom have to ask Abram for the persons? It was because tradition allowed him to keep all beyond the spoils of war.

      Gwaine: There is NOTHING in the Bible suggesting a PAGAN practice about Abraham’s tithes. Second, Abraham did not give tithes to Melchizedek by tradition or compulsion. There was no law or custom forcing Abraham to have given tithes to Melchizedek, which was why the former gave tithes of his own volition. Third, your logic is flawed and I have shown this in the other blog (WFTB) where you NEVER addressed the points I raised thereto. Your Gen. 14:21 inference does not make any such “suggestion” as you want us to believe.

      I answered your objections in the WFTB blog on these matters and also left some simple questions there for you which you never returned to address (even after I invited you to discuss amicably); it is therefore no suprise to find you’re instead reharshing the same redundant assertions here. For convenience sake, as a reminder I could post the link or my entire rebuttal if you so please.

      Fred Hatchett just chorused the “PAGAN practice” insinuation into Abraham’s tithes, whereas Scripture does not teach such a fallacy anywhere. If either you or Hatchett can look into your Bible and show the verse that reads ‘PAGAN’ for Abraham’s tithes, I extend a friendly invitation here to do so. What I would have thought sensible for you would be to address these issues from God’s Word rather than interjecting the duplicity of a flawed logic that you cannot defend in Scripture.
      ____

      Russ: “Go to any public library and research the subject of spoils of war common in Abram’s time. You will find numerous articles on the subject. You teach a LIE when you insist that Abram gave in freely or in obedience to God –with no texts whatsoever.

      Gwaine: No, I was not teaching a lie in rebutting the idea of a PAGAN practice on Abraham’s tithes. No verse in the Bible shows your “pagan tradition” for Abraham’s tithes, and your assertion thereto has been shown again and again to be ridiculously dubious. Little wonder that you have no verse to show such ‘paganism’ but rather injected your flawed ‘logic’ into God’s Word while accusing others of lying.

      As regards researching the subject of spoils of war, perhaps you are too embarrassed to admit your duplicity on this point when I showed in the other blog that one of the sources you cited to make a ‘pagan’ claim was actually showing the direct opposite of what you asserted! The source was Hugo Grotius’ “De Jure Belli ac Pacis” (tr. by A. C. Campbell, 1814), which you had carried on your antitithing website claiming “PAGAN TITHES: GENESIS 14″ for Abraham. On the contrary, Hugo Grotius didn’t assert any such of your dubious assertions; rather, he made plain that ‘. . .in the fourteenth chapter of Genesis, Abraham devoted to God a tenth part of the spoils’. Not only so, but Grotius went on further to make plain that ‘. . .the inspired writer in the seventh chapter of his Epistle to the Hebrews gives the same interpretation of this passage.” Pray tell: does that sound like “PAGANISM” to you, Russell?!?

      Now let me remind you, anytime you come up waving this redundant cacophony of researching the subject of spoils of war common in Abraham’s time, please refer to Hugo Grotius’ work (“De Jure Belli ac Pacis” [‘On the Law of War and Peace’]) – that is one example that answers that recycled excuse of yours! Perhaps, you should also know that De Jure Belli ac Pacis is a scholarly work that is also now regarded as a foundational work in international law. It is also available in reputable “public libraries”, and it has continued to serve the interests of sincere researchers who would not twist his work to assert what Grotius does not suggest.

      How you manipulated Hugo’s plain comment to assert your lies into his statement is the eleventh wonder of the world! Grotius never asserted ‘PAGANISM’ into Abraham’s tithes; the epistle to the Hebrews does not make such a ‘PAGAN’ logic; no verse in the entire Bible suggests ‘PAGAN’ into Abraham’s tithes – but you would rather twist Grotius’ to claim what he does not, and then repeat this shallow lie about ‘PAGAN’ into Abraham’s tithes where the Bible does not teach any such things ANYWHERE! Since the Bible is not enough for you, then you must interpolate your lies against it, yes? Why do most antitithers often follow you to stubbornly hold to their puerile duplicity as you do, Russ?

      Sorry, I was not the one teaching a lie, so please don’t try to impress your antitithing crowd by stubbornly repeating your duplicity up and down this page!
      ____

      Russ: “I have carefully studied the book of Hebrews. It is SILENT concerning WHY Abram tithed spoils of war. If you have any proof otherwise, let me know

      Gwaine: Does the book of Hebrews assert that Abraham’s tithes were about a PAGAN tradition? If you can boldly claim that it is SILENT on that, why do you repeat the lie of a ‘pagan’ tradition into Abraham’s tithes?!? That was my point in responding to Hatchett, that a careful study of the book of Hebrews shows “that Abraham’s tithes was not an ‘implementation’ of a ‘pagan’ practice”. So, if you find Hebrews asserting ‘PAGAN practice’ for Abraham’s tithes, please by all means show us the verse!

      To reiterate, Grotius (whose work you cited on your website) says: “. . .the inspired writer in the seventh chapter of his Epistle to the Hebrews gives the same interpretation of this passage” – that is, the same interpretation as he did in Genesis that Abraham’s tithes were ‘devoted to GOD‘. Of course, you may not see all this before asserting your own flawed logic and twisting Grotius’ work – that could be excused for the moment.

      However, no serious student of the Bible would assert that Hebrews teaches ‘PAGANISM’ concerning Abraham’s tithes. That was the point in my comment to Hatchett, and if you have anything to show to the contrary in HEBREWS, please do so by all amicable means.
      ____

      Russ: “My Bible says that the historical M was only a type of Messiah “by interpretation of his name and title.” It says that his ORDER of a king-priest (AND NOT HIS PERSON) was copied by Messiah. Why is that so hard to grasp?

      Gwaine: Where did I say or suggest that it was the ‘PERSON’ of Melchizedek that was copied by the Messiah? That part of your comment is so dense as to pass for comedy central, since I don’t remember ever arguing what you want to object to! That is a classic example of what I meant by a strawman – make up things that do not appear in other people’s comments and then pretend that is what they were saying so you can argue away from the real gist! Don’t make me laugh. ;)

      Please pay close attention to what I said, and not try to interpolate your flawed logic into my comments as you have done with Grotius to teach an oft-repeated antitithing LIE.

      Regards.

  18. As always Gwaine only wants to argue for the sake of arguing. Notice how little actual Bible discussion and Bible texts come from him. He is not interested in studying the Bible. He only wants to stir the pot. Again I am not interested in that kind of babble. He does the same thing in every thread he jumps into. No Bible, just babble. I will be gald to answer biblical questions and comments from others.

    • Gwaine says:

      As always, Russ makes excuses here and there when he has absolutely NOTHING to say! You rushed your shoddy harrumph without dealing at all with any point raised in my rebuttal – very, very typical of the antitithing spirit! Keep it.

      These assertions you recycled here are nothing new from the WFTB blog which I addressed using the Bible. I was waiting to see how far you’d keep your duplicity and also made clear I am willing to post the link or my entire rebuttal from the WFTB. There are verses to point out your duplicity in my rebuttal, so what’s all this hilarity of crying to your choir pretending this is all new… and trying once again to gaul the public?

      And please, when you are able, explain your obvious LIE of twisting Hugo Grotius’ words to assert ‘paganism’ for Abraham! Russ, why did you LIE and yet still keep excusing that one? Yes, indeed.. your fawning antitithing crowd are just too lazy to call out your lies on that – and that is why you’d rather slap it away with your comic relief.

  19. Gwaine says:

    Tony: How can one dailogue with someone who seems rather indecisive on where they stand regarding any issue? On the one hand you have said, people should give what they are able, then on the other hand you turn around and say those that speak against the tithe are being manipulative. That’s very partisan and so you.

    Gwaine: I wasn’t being partisan, and my points are very clear. I detest antithing arguments built on OBVIOUS LIES which antitithers are not ashamed to keep recycling. By extension, I detest lies paraded by many fraudsters for their pro-tithing propaganda. If manipulation with these falsehoods is the problem, then let’s deal with the problem instead of condeming “tithes” wholesale. That is as simply as I can put it.

    When people argue to condemn tithes or make Christians altogether stop tithing, that is simply legalistic and dense. But the real problem I have with such antitithers is not so much their agenda to stop Christians from tithing, rather it is the obvious lies they circulate in order to bastardise ‘tithes’.
    ____

    Tony: “You came on my blog and I found it very difficult to understand you and your answers to most of the questions where rather pathetic and showed you have no proper understanding of scriptures. I told you that before. It appears you just enjoy argueing with everybody and refuse to listen to what others have to say. Is what we are saying so difficult to understand? What we have been saying all along is “EVERYBODY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO GIVE WHAT THEY WANT TO GIVE WITHOUT BEING MANIPULATED BY A NON EXISTENT 10% “BIBLICAL” COMMAND!”

    Gwaine: It was not that you could not understand what I was saying in this blog before you invited me over to yours to ‘pick my brains’. You just simply had no heart for a discussion and plainly lashed out that I was not a christian and doubting if I was born again. It was on such reactions from you, Tony, that I left your blog – even though you never sought to reason out anything I said there.

    When believers resort to this kind of ad hominems instead of paying attention to what is said, what then do we achieve at the end of the day? Just because someone does not agree with your arguments, that has become reason enough for you to say they are not born again?!?

    I have always been against ALL forms of manipulations – both from tithers and antitithers. The antitither who can lie to the public is no better than the tither who lies to the crowd.

    If we understand that, and also claim that it is okay for Christians to tithe or choose not to tithe, why then go the length of arguing long and hard against ‘tithes’? Not only so, but using all forms of duplicity to promote the antitithing agenda is simply dense and beyond pathetic!
    ____
    Tony: “I blame myself though because I knew you were like this and still decided to comment. Wow!

    Gwaine: Your personal slants on anybody’s character does not make you a hero. If blaming yourself (because you already have drawn conclusions about my person) is all you can do at this stage, please carry on.

    I found that reasoning with antitithers who are set in their ways is quite revealing indeed. Admittedly, not all ‘antitithers’ resort to strawman arguments or ad hominems; and quite a few of them I’ve discussed with will not keep holding on to obvious lies they picked up from antitithing blogs. However, I’d just say consistently that people should be encouraged to give cheerfully if they so decide to tithe or choose to not tithe – there is no reason to join a bandwagon foisting illiterate and dubious arguments to bastardise ‘tithes’.

    • Tony Isaac says:

      Gwaine,

      You are still the same ol’ Gwaine! You bring nothing new to the table but would rather muddy the waters! At least every Christian I have encountered either believes today’s church should tithe or the tithe is no longer relevant and instead everyone should give what they can afford. You are the first and the only “Christian” I have met who believes there is something wrong and right with both views. This makes discussing with you a chore. Because, whatever my view you will always have a problem with it.

      You said I lashed out after inviting you unto my blog and rightly so. What is left to be said to someone who is neither here nor there? Here’s one of the comments you left on my blog (emphasis is mine)

      You see, on either side of the fence, people are too busy mispunching and arguing vacantly with almost the same eisegesis and panic measures. That is not to say there are no good arguments either ways from anyone – indeed I’ve read and listened to quite a few well balanced, but opposing, views. As it is, my persuasion is what I’ve often offered to friends:
      1. let’s not make ourselves the victims of other people’s misplaced arguments;
      2. people should “DO AS THEY MAY” – if they want to tithe, they could do so most happily (for tithing is not merely or only “10%”); if they don’t desire to give anything, they could do as they may;
      3. in all things, love works within the matrix of 2 Cor. 9:7 [“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give”], and Rom. 14:5 [“Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind”].

      How can two opposing views to scriptures be balanced? Both cannot be right and wrong at the same time. I once chanced upon a very weird website. The owner claimed that when Jesus was addressing the Samaritan woman at the well and told her He would give her water that would forever quench her thirst; this water was His (Jesus) “semen”. How would you have responded to that? Would you say he has a “balanced” view and all who believe the living water is the Holy Spirit also hold balanced views and then turn around and find flaws with both views?

      Like I said earlier, stop supporting and deriding both views, give us your take on this topic and provide relevant scriptures.

      • Tony Isaac says:

        Gwaine,

        You are still the same ol’ Gwaine! You bring nothing new to the table but would rather muddy the waters! At least every Christian I have encountered either believes today’s church should tithe or the tithe is no longer relevant and instead everyone should give what they can afford. You are the first and the only “Christian” I have met who believes there is something wrong and right with both views. This makes discussing with you a chore. Because, whatever my view you will always have a problem with it.

        You said I lashed out after inviting you unto my blog and rightly so. What is left to be said to someone who is neither here nor there? Here’s one of the comments you left on my blog (emphasis is mine)

        You see, on either side of the fence, people are too busy mispunching and arguing vacantly with almost the same eisegesis and panic measures. That is not to say there are no good arguments either ways from anyone – indeed I’ve read and listened to quite a few well balanced, but opposing, views. As it is, my persuasion is what I’ve often offered to friends:
        1. let’s not make ourselves the victims of other people’s misplaced arguments;
        2. people should “DO AS THEY MAY” – if they want to tithe, they could do so most happily (for tithing is not merely or only “10%”); if they don’t desire to give anything, they could do as they may;
        3. in all things, love works within the matrix of 2 Cor. 9:7 [“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give”], and Rom. 14:5 [“Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind”].

        How can two opposing views to scriptures be balanced? Both cannot be right and wrong at the same time. I once chanced upon a very weird website. The owner claimed that when Jesus was addressing the Samaritan woman at the well and told her He would give her water that would forever quench her thirst; this water was His (Jesus) “semen”. How would you have responded to that? Would you say he has a “balanced” view and all who believe the living water is the Holy Spirit also hold balanced views and then turn around and find flaws with both views?

        Like I said earlier, stop supporting and deriding both views, give us your take on this topic and provide relevant scriptures.

        • Gwaine says:

          Tony: You are still the same ol’ Gwaine! You bring nothing new to the table but would rather muddy the waters! At least every Christian I have encountered either believes today’s church should tithe or the tithe is no longer relevant and instead everyone should give what they can afford. You are the first and the only “Christian” I have met who believes there is something wrong and right with both views. This makes discussing with you a chore. Because, whatever my view you will always have a problem with it.

          Gwaine: I don’t think you have a handle on what you’re complaining about, other than merely complaining for the sake of it. If I bring nothing new to the table, why did you suggest earlier that we’re singing from the same sheets and yet going round and round to disagree with me while even yet whinge all day that you do not understand me?!?

          I’m not the sort of person to argue by demagoguery; nor do I try to join any bangwagon or labels of ‘pro-tither’/’anti-tither’. If you so cherish the labels, all well and good – but please leave me out of that farce. The things I have stood up against is FALSEHOOD – whether such falsehood are propounded by tithers or antitithers does not matter: what is false and dubious is just that: false.

          So, if you’re worrying why I refuse to join your bandwagon, that’s probably because you’re too driven to not see the real issue and just want the label of antitither so that you can celebrate. Sorry to disappoint you.
          ____

          Tony: You said I lashed out after inviting you unto my blog and rightly so. What is left to be said to someone who is neither here nor there?”

          Gwaine: I beg your pardon? Your lashing out against my person to the point of saying I was “not born again” was. . . “rightly so“? Are you really serious? If that sort of sanctimonious superfluity is all you know how to champion, does it surprise you that I left your blog without joining issues with you?

          Discussing is good; but when you choose rather to be reactive to the point of justifying your ‘lashing out’ against someone in that manner because of tithing, you should carefully reconsider the ‘love’ you pretended to have that does not exist!
          ____

          Tony: “Here’s one of the comments you left on my blog (emphasis is mine)

          You see, on either side of the fence, people are too busy mispunching and arguing vacantly with almost the same eisegesis and panic measures. That is not to say there are no good arguments either ways from anyone – indeed I’ve read and listened to quite a few well balanced, but opposing, views. As it is, my persuasion is what I’ve often offered to friends:
          1. let’s not make ourselves the victims of other people’s misplaced arguments;
          2. people should “DO AS THEY MAY” – if they want to tithe, they could do so most happily (for tithing is not merely or only “10%”); if they don’t desire to give anything, they could do as they may;
          3. in all things, love works within the matrix of 2 Cor. 9:7 [“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give”], and Rom. 14:5 [“Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind”].

          Gwaine: That’s great – and thanks for reposting it here. I just wonder: what have I said in that excerpt that made you ‘lash out’ that I was “not born again”, so much so that you have tried to justify such a reaction here with “rightly so”?? Which of my points in 1-2-3 above would have warranted your sanctimonious “rightly so” reaction that I was not born again, Tony? I’m just curious about your fledging sanctimony.

          That was why I left your blog, just so you don’t overdo yourself in such a behaviour.
          ____

          Tony: “How can two opposing views to scriptures be balanced? Both cannot be right and wrong at the same time.

          Gwaine: Here is why you just have not grown beyond where you’ve been for all the eons I left your blog. The point especially in the highlights can now be explicated, if you want me to do so now:

          1. As Christians, we should not be “too busy mispunching and arguing vacantly with almost the same eisegesis and panic measures”. ‘Eisegesis is NOT the same as EXEGESIS; and to engage in eisegesis is actually mispunching and arguing vacantly, if not asserting false statements that we cannot find in Scripture. I have made reference to one such obvious LIE recycled by antitithers on this page; and there are other false statements that I’ve heard from pro-tithers as well. Whose lies should I then agree with – those from antitithers, or those from pro-tithers? I choose neither – I hope this helps to explain why I am not interested in labels and bangwagons? A lie from the antitithing camp is no better than another lie from pro-tithers.

          2. Yet, the above in (1) does not mean that I oppose everything and everybody on either side of the divide – which was why I clarified with the bold part which you reposted from my comments earlier (“. . . indeed I’ve read and listened to quite a few well balanced, but opposing, views“). Some antitithers have said things that make sense; and some pro-tithers have also made very articulate common-sense points. That much I can agree with and commend persuasions that are honest and to the point. It does not matter to me whether those statements come from an antitither or a pro-tither; and that again is why I’m never interested in the labels people go by. I tend to carefully examine what is said much more than worrying about who says what.

          These two points should be simple and straightforward to any sincere enquirer. Just because you don’t agree with someone does not mean therefore that you should completely ignore what they are saying and then turn round to complain about ‘two opposing views’. You can disagree with someone; but you could also learn to appreciate some other important and commendable things they might have said, if indeed it applies.

          For instance, many pastors in the USA favour tithes or teach in churches that tithe; others are opposed to tithing in any and all forms. Yet, I have enjoyed some of the other things some non-tithing pastors have taught, as much as I have enjoyed what tithing pastors have taught. So, just because two groups of pastors disagree over tithes does not mean I should take sides with any labels. Many antitithers are against most churches that encourage their members to tithe, and just because of tithing these antitithers are very happy to condemn and fight those churches! What kind of ‘christians’ would rejoices in such discord?

          Another example, even though the Lord Jesus Christ was often at odds with the Pharisees, He was willing to recognize what they taught from the Law of Moses and went on to urge His disciples with these words: “whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do” (Matt. 23:1-3, KJV). This does not mean that He agreed with everything the Pharisees taught or did; but He certainly did not assume that everything about the Pharisees must have been wrong! Otherwise, why would He even recommend that His disciples obeyed whatever the Pharisees taught from Moses’ Law?

          The point is simple: I don’t care whatever label anyone wants to go about with; but if I find an honest statement or a point-of-view (POV) to commend, I would go on and commend it regardless whether anyone desires to join a bandwagon and I refuse to do so!
          ____

          Tony: I once chanced upon a very weird website. The owner claimed that when Jesus was addressing the Samaritan woman at the well and told her He would give her water that would forever quench her thirst; this water was His (Jesus) “semen”. How would you have responded to that? Would you say he has a “balanced” view and all who believe the living water is the Holy Spirit also hold balanced views and then turn around and find flaws with both views?

          Gwaine: I’ve explained what I meant by ‘balanced view’, so your analogy above simply does not hold any water.

          Whenever I deal with an issue, I have often tried to make my point without trying to polarise a discourse. This is why I mention particular cases that I deal with, such as the dubious assertion of ‘Abraham was implementing a PAGAN practice‘ not taught anywhere in God’s Word. Those who propagate such a shameless lie should do just one thing: refrain from recycling that fallacy and rather point out the verse in the Bible that teaches ‘pagan practice’ for Abraham’s tithes. It is not rocket science.
          ____

          Tony: Like I said earlier, stop supporting and deriding both views, give us your take on this topic and provide relevant scriptures.

          Gwaine: I’m really weary now of your hypocrisy. I cannot support the very particular assertions I have challenged – call them LIES paraded by antitithers. If I am persuaded that Scripture does not teach ‘pagan practice’ for Abraham’s tithes (and I have shown this quite well in the WFTB blog), would it make sense for me to then support that antitithing lie at the same time?

          Do you see why you’re not actually interested in considering what I have been saying but rather far too concerned about “still the same ol’ Gwaine”? Why not play less on the ad hominem and strawmen fallacies, and rather pay particular attention to what I have been saying and not what I am not saying?

          Cheers.

  20. Gwaine says:

    James: Pride is the reason why you are so deceived, try studying the bible and honour Apostle Pauls letters before you make anymore stupid comments. Its ok I dont think you have the mind to understand the letters in Galatians anyway.

    Gwaine: It’s no use trying to slur anyone just to champion your legalistic antitithing campaign – first lesson you would have to learn, James. You’ve not demonstrated a good grasp of the Bible, but thanks for recommending what you can’t handle. God’s Word does not call the believer to legalism.

    • James says:

      Gwaine, I have never come across anyone who is so confused about the bible like you before, I almost feel sad to read your comments. I just dont know where to start or where to begin. I you do not know the diffrence between the old and new covenant. Maybe you think the bible is a riddle for very smart people like yourself to interbret in whatever meaning you decide fits your doctrine.

      Paul said in 2 Corinthians 8:12 NLT to give according to what you have not what you dont have.
      Means Give if you CAN AFFORD IT NOT IF YOU CANT AFFORD IT
      Gwaine thats not the law of tithing its freewill giving taught by Paul for the new covenant church.
      But you must know more than Apostle Paul.

      • Gwaine says:

        James,

        You’re not the first antitither I know who readily resorts to ad hominem fallacy when you have nothing reasonable to say. The one thing I find fascinating is that not one of you guys has said a word anywhere about the points I raised for your consideration. None. Instead, you come out with aspersions and mudslinging – as if those are viable substitutes for sound reasoning. But, of course, it’s your style, so keep it up.
        ____

        James: I you do not know the diffrence between the old and new covenant. Maybe you think the bible is a riddle for very smart people like yourself to interbret in whatever meaning you decide fits your doctrine.

        Gwaine: Isn’t it rather ironic you’d say that! :) Now, if I called your attention to the unhealthy legalism you promote, does that amount to my not distinguishing between the old and new covenant?

        I have not been trying to interpret the Bible with innuendos that are obvious lies – go ask those who have been propagating such dubious assertions as ‘Abraham was implenting a pagan practice’ – which verse in the Bible teaches such a “doctrine”? If you can find such a ‘doctrine’ in God’s Word, why have you not been concerned that some of your pals were promoting such?
        ___

        James: Paul said in 2 Corinthians 8:12 NLT to give according to what you have not what you dont have. Means Give if you CAN AFFORD IT NOT IF YOU CANT AFFORD IT
        Gwaine thats not the law of tithing its freewill giving taught by Paul for the new covenant church. But you must know more than Apostle Paul.

        Gwaine: Bro.. let’s make this simple for your sake. First, I’ve never asked anybody anywhere or anytime to give what they cannot afford; so there’s no need going all capital letters on 2 Cor. 8:12. Second, the idea of ‘freewill giving’ is not strange – it is found in so many places in the OT and in the Law of Moses. Have you ever considered the fact that even Paul quoted loads of OT verses (some of them directly from the Law) when he taught about giving in the NT?

        Third, in past discussions I’ve cited 2 Cor. 8:12 several times, and I’m sure those who know ‘Gwaine’ will be honest enough to confirm that to you; as well the fact that I’ve also cited other verses that say very similar things – for example:

        (a) 2 Cor. 9:7 [“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give”, KJV]; and,
        (b) Rom. 14:5 [“Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind”, KJV].

        There. If you go back the previous pages you’ll find quite a harvest of my posts saying just about the same things in the past. So, when you wave ‘Paul’ in my face, you should understand I’m quite aware of what the NT teaches – and for all practical purposes, not even Paul is found making legalistic antitithing arguements anywhere (even though it is a fact that he quoted verses directly from the Law of Moses to teach NT giving).

        That said, the one thing that I’ve often tried to highlight is the legalism that many people employ in their antitithing stance! In worse case scenarios, this legalism tends to be pushed until very unfounded assertions emanate from various quarters. . . some of which border on plain lies. This is why I’ve been calling them out in the hope that we learn to simply be honest in what we say!

        No Christian has to resort to falsehood just to promote a view – whether it be for ‘tithing’ or ‘antitithing’.

        • James says:

          Gwaine, Tithing is a law given exclusively to the nation of Israel not for Gentiles. The Israelites are Gods people. Everyone else are gentiles without exception. To try and revive laws given by God to Moses for the Jews in the old covenant is very foolish.
          It is an abomination to say the least.

          Lies are preached and taught everywhere by pastors that are manipulating christians because of fear and unbelief to finance their own agendas and not depending on God to provide for his work. That is what I am totaly against lies about tithing laws but I am not against christians giving to support Gods work. Lets not forget why Jesus warned us about wolves coming in the churches with a gospel of focusing on how to be rich and how to enjoy it in this present world that is being taught from pulpits everywhere.

  21. Gwaine says:

    James: Gwaine, Tithing is a law given exclusively to the nation of Israel not for Gentiles. The Israelites are Gods people. Everyone else are gentiles without exception. To try and revive laws given by God to Moses for the Jews in the old covenant is very foolish.
    It is an abomination to say the least.

    Gwaine: When you discuss with others whose views you may not agree with, calm down and pay some attention to what they are saying. Never assume you know anything before spouting derogatory remarks to conclude they are ‘foolish, stupid,’ etc. You never know how much you may be describing yourself by those terms in your reactions (Prov. 18:13, NLT).

    First, tithing was a commandment in the Law (see Heb. 7:5) – big difference. It is because many antitithers simply do not understand what the Bible means by ‘the Law’, they just go about spinning off all sorts of eisegesis to bolster their legalistic antitithing arguments.

    Second, the patriarchs knew about tithing long before the Law was enacted – the Law of Moses only incorporated it as part of the polity to serve Israel. The Law of Moses unto Israel is NOT the only place where the subject of tithes is treated. Besides, when you study the book of Hebrews, you wonder how Abraham’s tithes to Melchizedek was superior to the Levitical tithes. The Levitical tithe is not superior to Abraham’s tithes to Melchizedek (Heb. 7:9-10) – which is one reason I pointed out earlier that the one thing tithes were pointing to was the priesthood.

    Third, the NT notes that the Gentiles, who did not have the written Law, do by nature the things that are written in the Law – this is to show that the Law was written in their hearts (Rom. 2:14-15). In the same principle, God desires that His law be written in the heart and mind of the NT believer (Heb. 8:10 and 10:16). We are not called to legalism, but to see the practical spiritual principles in the OT for NT living. This is why the NT makes clear that whatever was written in the OT was written for our instruction (Rom. 15:4) – not to a life of legalism, but one of spiritual principles.

    Fourth, I’m not trying to ‘revive’ the Law of Moses. I have said repeatedly that the Law of Moses and other books of the OT have been quoted by NT apostles in teaching NT Christian doctrines! This is a fact you cannot intelligently deny! So, if my referring to the Law and the OT makes you wonder about ‘reviving’ the Law, what would you say about the apostles who taught NT doctrines directly from the same Law of Moses and OT books? Why are you not saying a word on that after I pointed it out several times with examples?

    You’ve talked about honouring Paul’s letters, yes? Well, is it not the same Paul who declared that you cannot void or overthrow the Law through faith? ‘On the contrary,’ he says, ‘we uphold the Law’ (Romans 3:31, ESV). Perhaps, you now realise that if you go by your legalistic arguments through and through, then there is absolutely NOTHING from the OT that you can carry with you into NT Christianity! The difference is that we do not apply the OT by the letter – that would be legalism (2 Cor. 3:6); rather, we are called to see the spiritual principles in the OT for our NT Christian living!

    This is why I earlier exemplified that Paul quoted Deuteronomy 25:4 when he was teaching CHRISTIANS about giving (1 Corinthians 9:9-10). He noted that Deut. 25:4 was written for “our sakes” – that is, for the Christian‘s sake! If you’re too hung up on the legalism of antitithing in the letter of the Law, you will never see the simplicity of this principle – the principle that Paul was not looking for ‘ox’ in the literal sense, but rather calling for the principle in that OT verse to encourage NT giving, as he does in other NT passages.

    One reason why many antitithers talk the way you do is because they cannot see the principles of the OT in the NT! Are you even aware that some of the OT verses quoted from the OT Law by Paul to teach NT giving in the NT have absolutely NOTHING to do with ‘giving’? Those who are not looking for legalistic arguments can easily see this – so it’s little wonder that many antitithers cannot see this fact!

    From all this, it is apparent why we should not be wasting precious time mispunching with legalistic antitithing arguments and eisegesis in order to make everyone stop tithing or to force anyone to tithe! To do so is simply not the Christianity of the NT.
    ____

    James: Lies are preached and taught everywhere by pastors that are manipulating christians because of fear and unbelief to finance their own agendas and not depending on God to provide for his work. That is what I am totaly against lies about tithing laws but I am not against christians giving to support Gods work. Lets not forget why Jesus warned us about wolves coming in the churches with a gospel of focusing on how to be rich and how to enjoy it in this present world that is being taught from pulpits everywhere.

    Gwaine: If that is the real problem, then deal with the ‘lies’ instead of joining the antitithing bandwagon to condemn ‘tithes’ wholesale. Tithes are not the real problem – if they are, then what happens after people stop tithing… will the financial scamming and scheming suddenly come to an end in Christianity? Are you even aware that there are far more other means that fraudsters employ to dupe Christians than just ‘tithing’?

    There are as many lies being recycled by antitithers – and it’s quite hypocritical for some of these folks to be accusing pro-tithes of lying, when the same antitithers never once condemn the lies brazenly told by their antitithing heroes! This is why I refuse to take sides, and where lies are told (whether by pro-tithers or antitithers), they should be challenged. Perhaps one reason some antitithers do not like to dialogue with me is that they know I won’t ever put up with their gutless and very embarrassing lies.

    I don’t have any problems whatsoever with someone choosing to express his giving by the principle of ‘tithing'; and if another chooses to not tithe, good for them as well. My principle has always been this: each person should be convinced in his or her own mind (Rom. 14:5), and each should be free to decide within themselves just what and how they give (2 Cor. 8:12 & 9:7). The one who is persuaded to express his giving by the principle of tithing should do so cheerfully; another feels to do so in some other ways – God bless them both. The essential point is that we should go beyond mere arguments to actually giving (2 Cor. 8:11)!

    Either way, cajoling or manipulating people to altogether stop tithing is as macabre as trying to force or compel or coerce or manipulate people to tithe/give.

  22. freewilllgiver says:

    Gwaine praise Jesus. I have a few Questions thankyou for answering. Jesus brought you to this sight and you have blessed me so much I had to post before work. Gwaine I think many on this site want more context becase we are not as gifted at writing or reading complicated debates. You really bring plenty of debate to this blog. Gwaine I missed you during your absence. I learned alot about you, debating and tithes by reading most of your post. Is there any person or group that has similar views on tithes? Who teaches tithes the best group, fellowship or person.

    Gwaine I want to be your favorite anti-tither who spreads his views without lying. Can you name any Anti tither who is not filled with lies. Will you please name one so we can better follow your arguments. Also Please name any doctrinal statment by any group who presents money tithes in a non lying stance. Also Gwaine do you attend a fellowship which preaches tithes in line with your views. How do you and your fellowship differ on tithes?

    And finally How can Christians apply the pricipals of eating their tithes and drinking strong drink in the name of tithes in their fellowships today? Deuteronomy 14:26 More later friend.

    • Gwaine says:

      My dear freewillgiver,

      I cannot be thankful enough for the love and friendship you and Jeff have continued to show me, even though we differ on a number of issues around tithes.

      However, your questions are appreciated and I think they have been answered in the past – pls scroll over to the previous pages. An example:

      freewillgiver: “Is there any person or group that has similar views on tithes? Who teaches tithes the best group, fellowship or person.”
      Gwaine: pls see a few examples on previous page, dated 02/19/2009 at 7:19 am

      ^^That said, it does not mean anybody or group is the ‘best’ at teaching anything. We should always remember that as Christians ‘we all make many mistakes’ (James 3:2, NLT). However, there should be no excuse for deliberately forcing dubious assertions to promote any view.

      Further, you know I’m not one to argue by demagoguery or jingoism. I have consistently maintained two points on why I don’t take sides with either this or that group or label –

      (a) “But if you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law” – James 2:1 & 9, NLT.
      (b) “Showing partiality is never good” – Proverbs 28:21, NLT.

      I’m sorry, freewillgiver, but I’m not one to take sides with any group or other to engage in this ugly divide in the Body of Christ. There are plenty of examples in Scripture showing that it is perfectly in order to not take sides in mere arguments – anyone who desires me to show them, is welcome to ask and I will be glad to point them out.

      freewillgiver: “And finally How can Christians apply the pricipals of eating their tithes and drinking strong drink in the name of tithes in their fellowships today? Deuteronomy 14:26″

      Interesting you should quote Deut. 14:26 – that verse speaks of tithes that were converted into money, (verse 25) no? Yes – please consult your Bible and see for yourself.

      However, a ‘principle‘ is not to be confused for literalism. In simple terms, ‘literalism’ means that a believer only sees the letter of the Law but not its principle. To apply an OT verse in a legalistic manner without seeing its principle is simply to hold on to the letter of the Law – that is what I’ve been highlighting as legalism.

      For example, if a teacher quotes Deut. 25:4 (‘You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain‘, NLT), a legalistic believer would be busy arguing all day about ‘ox‘ and grain in a literal manner! There probably is nothing you can say to convince that believer that there is a ‘principle’ in that verse for NT teaching on ‘giving’. This believer will then argue for two millenia that Israel was sowing ‘grains’ and keeping ‘ox’ – he will challenge you to show him where you find “offering” or “money” in Deuteronomy 25:4. And since that verse does not say anything about “offering” or “money” or “donation”, you will be wasting your entire life trying to make any sense to this legalistic brother who’s only interested in the ‘letter’ of the Law!

      But Paul precisely quoted Deut. 25:4 to teach NT ‘giving’ – a verse that says absolutely nothing about ‘giving‘, or ‘money‘, or ‘offering‘ at all! (see 1 Cor. 9:9-10 and 1 Tim. 5:18). The legalistic antitither will never argue with Paul, even though the apostle says that Deut. 25:4 was ‘written for our sakes‘! I have never found any antitither debating against Paul for quoting the Law of Moses (Deut. 25:4) and demanding where ‘money’ or ‘offering’ or ‘giving’ is found in that OT verse specifically given to Israel! The defeaning silence from antitithers on this example speaks volumes indeed! However, we can all agree that even though that verse was speaking about ‘ox’ and ‘grain’ to Israel, Christians today can intelligently quote that verse and understand its principle for NT ‘giving’ (including and not confined to “money”). There is no need to wait to see ‘money’ in black and white in Deut. 25:4 before a Christian can understand why Paul quoted it to teach NT ‘giving’.

      In the same manner, when believers today begin to make a lot of noise about Deuteronomy 14:26 in a literal manner, it just shows these folks cannot see the ‘principle’ in such verses; rather, they only see the ‘letter’ of the Law and nothing else. This is why they often worry about “strong drink” and “oxen” and “wine” all day long in that verse, as they do with other OT verses concerning giving (no offence to you personally). You will often hear them protest with such lines as ‘the Law was exclusively given to the Jews’. Correct – but would they argue with Paul for quoting the same Law of Moses to CHRISTIANS and saying that it was “written for our sakes“?!? Why do these dear folks never make the same argument against Paul when he quoted from the Law of Moses?

      I only tried to show again the simplicity of a ‘principle’ – it is a world of difference from ‘legalism’. The legalist is far too busy asking for literal ‘ox’ and ‘grain’ and ‘strong drink’ and ‘sheep’… If he does not see “money” or “offering” in a particular verse, then he will hoot on forever on his legalism about “ox” and “grain” and farm produce.

      However, a believer who understands what a “principle” is, will have no problems immediately understanding Paul when he quotes the OT and the Law of Moses in teaching NT doctrines!

      The one thing I have consistently maintained is that the Christian is not called to legalism. Nobody has to be looking for literal dictates from the Law in order to understand how the OT speaks to us today (see Romans 15:4). A Christian is free to express his giving whether through tithing or some other way. Nobody ought to be bothered with legalistic antitithing arguments, for we all know that when Paul quoted the OT, he was not pointing to literal ‘ox’ or ‘grain’ – the principle is simple enough to see.

      • Sam says:

        Gwaine, I have never heard anyone who thinks that they are in the same level as Apostle Paul and all the disciples in he bible like you. You are no dought on of the most prideful person I have come across in more than 20yrs. The deception is so bad you may even think I am enccoraging you to continue to teach theses LIES and DECEIVE MANY good christians. Your attempts to appear humble is no short of a very bad joke, its like listening to a drug dealer trying to witness for Jesus. Do us a favour kindly come down to earth and stop trying to be so spiritual and impress others with the rubbish you think you know. Very Sad.

        • Gwaine says:

          Sam,

          Please quote me in one line where I ever tried to make myself to be ‘in the same level as apostle Paul’. It’s no use trying to deride someone simply to impress yourself. Just because I pointed out exactly what Paul said in the NT in his quoting the Law of Moses to teach NT doctrine, that has become ‘pride’? Pointing out the legalism some of you foster, that makes you ‘sad’? And for all of your worries, you can’t even show what ‘lie’ was in what I posted? Does your Bible read something different from what I showed in all the verses in my comments?

          I see – you’re very comfortable with the lies brazenly told by your antitithing heroes; but you become sad when these things are pointed out, yes? Very good, Sam… very good.

          It’s often so amazing that some of your type would resort to ad hominem fallacies as a substitute for reason. If you’ve got something to justify your legalism, do so – if not, then I’m never surprised you would try to sling mud and call me names (‘drug dealer’ is quite mild, thank you).

          • Sam says:

            Gwaine, I am happy to point out this to you. For you to say that Apostle Paul quoted the sriptures in the old covenant for the purpose of encouraging christians to go back and practise the Mosiac law is not only foolish but its shows that your interbretation of scriptures is based on assumptions and proper research. It makes your views and opinions look more like superior in your own eyes than that of Pauls letters. Read and studt what Paul was saying in Galatians chapter 3 and all of chapter 5. You will find it hard to understand those scriptures because you think you are better than Apostle Paul. TRY HUMILITY ITS A REVEALATION OF WHO CHRIST, NOT AN OPINION OR SOMETHING YOU CAN STUDY

          • joel says:

            Gwaine, Tithing IS A LAW. Do you understand that or you need to ask Jesus about it ? Can you explain to us what Mathew 23:23 says in your own words. I bet you, you will try to give a deeper meaning or even dispute what Jesus clearly said. Read it very slowly, I will give you one month to try and understand what Jesus said because you sound like a very smart guy. I will even give you more time if you need it due to your impressive false and unfounded comments you made in the past.

          • jackie says:

            Hi,

            Gwaine, are you a pastor ? Your comments are so deceptive and unbiblical that if you are a pastor I feel for those poor christians that you have manged to defraud to give you their money for your own selfish agendas. Many people like you are fleecing and defrauding the body of christ for profit that it makes me feel so disgusted and angry. Whether you are a pastor or not I point you to the CURSE APOSTLE PAUL SAID IN GALATIANS 1:8-9. for those who teach and manipulate christians to go and keep the law of Moses to draw near to God to be blessed

            GWAINE, APOSTLE PAUL CALLED YOU A WITCH in Galatians 3:1
            Witches practise WITCHCRAFT. You have a douple curse on your head Mr Gwaine or is it Warlock ? If I was you I would repent right now before its too late.

          • Freewillgiver says:

            Jackie Joel and Sam thank you for participating in the love of Jesus sharing freedom to Gwaine and everyone who enters the blog fellowship. I am Mike Reynolds. Here is the school that I fellowship with. Gwaine I enjoyed reading our old post I remember how many things we agree on and how you gently rebuked me. Look how much Bible learning and fellowship we have gained without a money tithe envelope! Certainly we are a kind of Church Fellowship in the electronic realm. Please tell us friends how you have been blessed or annoyed!

            I hope you are not a libral becase Metro community churches I think accept gay ministers however I am not that conservitive but I am a radical of sorts. Gwaine I will demonstrate sharing my fellowship and some of their docrines by name droppin but I do not want growth stoppin. In my fellowship their is no offering plate and no person is called pastor, deacon or any title. The people who give the most in love to others are looked to for how they modle the sufferings of Christ.

            We support a school and missionaries to Afganistan. However every teacher is considered a minister worthy to suffer for Jesus. Entitlments ecept for Jesus are distained in the preaching of the school. Bradshaw Christian schools witness message is Christ in you along the lines of James fowler, Norman Grubb and Ian Thomas.

            Have patience friends with everyone we are spreading the mission of the Son. This blog needs no professional preachers, staff or board but our goals are to be in one accord. You are a member with Jesus if you love the lord Jesus Christ and you want to share his news about eternal life. You are a lite to your worlds in this dark day, Jesus is the light and the only way.

            Jackie Joel and everyone I am turning old 80s raps into messages to help spread freedom and my testimony on this blog. Please use your hearts to say in love what Jesus wants you to say and be on guard of the flesh.

            Read many of my post and you will see anger but Jesus is giving me more patience. Remember how Jesus was brough to you becase a wish washy love witness will never do. Sorry friends when I go to extreems but dicipleship hurts.

            I learned about Jesus in the Church of God in Christ in my family and through a lady preaching to children in her home with a good news bible fellowship. I carried my bible in JR. High and High school classes wearing Jesus T Shirts and I could often be found debating witnessing and bringing friends to my Assemblies of God fellowships. Christian music By Petra and Amy Grant helped to inspire me to begin Christian rapping. The Rapper T-Bone got his first start on an Album the JC Crew which I helped to create with my first band the Brotherhood.

            Our friend Gwaine has much more guts than many who disagree with us about money tithes and entitled preachers becase he has the courage to debate. Gwaine taught me a long time ago when I used lanugage in a less gentle way Gwain’s super fast responcive post showed my own selfisness. I leanrned to listen more by reading everyones post a little more thoughfully and I began spelling better most of the time.

            Spreading Jesus is done by all Christians and I believe that almost any pro money tithe preaching entitling preachers to money lessens the priesthood of every Christian. Ministry is every second so I got to get back to mine. Only in heaven friends will we fully understand the impact of our fellowships, works and love in Jesus.

            My School got spirit folks but we just lost our football game.

            http://www.kcra.com/video/24778292/detail.html

            Christ in US

  23. freewillgiver says:

    Gwaine thank you I will attempt to understand your last reply. Well my freind you are indirect in letting me know what kind of fellowship you attend so I will have to learn how to better search old post.

    The Apostle Paul explained alot about his approach and testimony. I think you have written on this site nearly as many words as the Apostle paul himself. Is this blog detrimental to Christianity or mostly negative. I brought this question to the debate to understand the shape of good truthful anti-tithing approach. I asked how you fellowship to understand what that looks like in practice. Please for us who do not search the web well simply put forth a good doctrinal statment unless you believe that your fellwoships beliefes need not be spread. Do you have a chuch or a pastor? If not a church or a pastor then who believes like you.

    I do not understand the harm of anti-tithers when compared against the Denominations that fund preachers called pastors. Would you agree that many called pastors do not deserve that label? An anti-tithe Christian leader has less monitary entitlments than a pro tithe leader when we witness them in the real world outside of debates.
    I am all ears and I am sure others would like to veiw a good doctrinal statment made by any group on tithes that you can stomach. I think you would not be in line with most churches or would you. Do you think the status quo is better than churches removing the word tithes from their doctrinal statments?

    I apply the principals of Deuteronomy 14:26 in my life by getting a beer with my freinds and discussing Jesus. I think all Christians who are not alcoholics should try eating and drinking the tithes. Last Question Why is this verse so neglected in teaching about tithes, do you think leaders are hiding somthing.

    • Gwaine says:

      @freewillgiver,

      You made me smile and laugh – I have so missed your sense of humour! :)

      Anyhow, I’ll be patient for you to go through the previous pages for my answers to your questions. It may not be helpful to keep repeating the same thing over and over again – that was why I posted you a reference to see my detailed replies to your enquiries (see my replies to you dated 02/19/2009 on previous page). I gave a few examples with links of different church denominations that do not preach an extreme ‘mandatory tithe‘ but rather encourage their members in a voluntary manner. Some of those churches state clearly that their teaching of tithe is not by obligation – which means people are encouraged to tithe without any pressure. This is not new, and I believe that if we take time to do a proper search we shall find many churches following the same model.

      However, the fact that many who call themselves ‘pastors’ do not deserve that title, should not mean that there are no genuine pastors in the Body of Christ. There are many, many pastors in many churches around the world whose ministries are a blessing to Christians and evidently show that they are called by God to such services. We should not fall into the mistake of denouncing ‘pastors’ everywhere just because some have abused that position.

      Your personal view of Deut. 14:26 is yours, if that is how you may apply that verse – I cannot forbid you what it means to you and your friends. And no, I do not agree with you that this verse is ‘so neglected in teaching about tithes’, for there are many I have read and heard who refer to that verse as well. I cannot say why some antitithers assume that the verse has been neglected; but perhaps one reason may be that a lot of antitithing folks have made up their minds to not listen to any teaching on tithes.

  24. Gwaine says:

    Sam and jackie,

    Let me first say that slinging mud at me or anyone you disagree with is below you. There’s no need to try and attack anybody when you cannot discuss anything in their views. It so happens that insults are the tools of very weak minds (which is ad hominem fallacy in discourses) – and if that is all you can display, please continue to show your spirit in that same manner: actually, it takes nothing away from me. :)

    @jackie, No – Paul does not call me a witch in Galatians 3:1. I did not manipulate Christians to go back and ‘keep the Law of Moses’. Please quote me anywhere I said so; and if you can’t find me saying so, then try and be honest to yourself if you care. In pointing out the verses where Paul refers to the OT to teach NT doctrines, I’ve consistently maintained that he was not pointing to literalism or legalism – if you disagree, please go right ahead and show that Paul was a legalist in quoting those verses from ‘the Law of Moses’. I do not find Paul being a legalist; if you do, please impress me. If you want to discuss, do so rather than descend to insults – that is just too weak a tool to resort to.

    ___

    To all who hurl calumny for whatever reason, please open your Bibles and go through what I said in all the verses I cited – if Paul did not say anything or quote at all from ‘the Law of Moses’ or the OT, please let me know.

    I have made my point so very simple and clear so many times: the Christian is not called to legalism; but when the apostles quoted from the OT, they pointed to its principles (a fact which NO ANTITITHER CAN DENY). If you can intelligently deny that fact, please do so as shamelessly as you can!

    It is okay to be upset if you cannot read your Bible. But please calm down and stop getting worked up! If your ‘bible’ is saying something entirely different, I can sympathize with that; but please have the decency to consider the following:

    (a) Paul quoted from the Law of Moses in Deuteronomy 25:4 (pls see 1 Cor. 9:9-10 and 1 Tim. 5:18). Please open you Bibles and READ those verses and compare – then come back and deny the FACT with more insults if you care to do so.

    (b) When Paul quoted Deuteronomy 25:4, he made clear that he was actually quoting from the Law of Moses and then declared that it was written for our sakes. This is what he said: “For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop” (1 Corinthians 9:9-10, ESV). (1 Cor. 9:10). Please READ it in your Bible and then come back and brazenly deny the FACT with more insults if you please.

    (c) In pointing out the above, I have tried to make clear that Paul was not asking Christians for ‘ox’ or ‘grain’ or ‘crop’ in the literal sense when he quoted Deut. 24:5. However, I pointed out that he drew from that verse to show a very simple “principle” – how does that amount to accusing me of asking people to go back and keep the Law of Moses? Can you, jackie please tell yourself the truth instead of being dishonest?

    (d) It was Paul himself who declared: “Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law” (Romans 3:31, ESV). Please again, open your Bibles and READ it, then come back and brazenly deny the FACT with more insults if that makes you happy.

    These are just a sample of some of the FACTS I stated and discussed – if your Bible is saying a totally different thing in those verses, please list them as I have done and then DENY the FACT of what those verses say as you find them in my posts! Save your weak insults and just show me that Paul never quoted any verse from the Law of Moses, or that he never quoted any OT verses at all to teach NT doctrines!

    I often take my time to focus on issues, discuss them and point them out from the Bible. Your vilifications against my person do very little to help you DENY the facts! You can call me anything you want from ‘drug dealer’ to ‘witch’ (and thank you so very much); but after all that, just please open your own BIBLE and read those verses for yourselves – if you can deny that Paul quoted from ‘the Law of Moses’ and declared also that it was ‘written for our sakes‘ as well as deny also that he “upheld the Law”, then your calumny would carry weight. Failing that, please save your weak vexations for your circus show until you have the heart to READ your Bibles!

    My point remains: in quoting the OT, Paul was not pointing to literalism or legalism. Rather, he (as did the other apostles) pointed to the principles in the OT verses they quoted. To antitithers who are just too vexed to see this, I salute your blindness! You can rant till you’re blue in the face, but please eschew the tendency to lie against your consciences!

    ___

    @joel, heartfelt thanks for your comments. I have dealt with Matthew 23:23 in the past. If you want the link, I will gladly post it here again. Regards.

  25. Gwaine says:

    @freewillgiver,

    Thank you again for your comments and gentleness. I apologise if my no-nonsense response to jackie and Sam causes any incovenience; but there’s a time when deliberate falsehood will have to be challenged – I’m asking these folks to just face up and be honest: I hope that is not too much to ask of them.

    No, I’m not supporting any tendency or suggestion to the ‘gay’. My reference to the Metropolitan church was just to show exemplify among others that not every church preaches a ‘mandatory tithe’ – if I never pointed the Metro church, the other examples will still make the point.

    Great to read about your ministry and outreach efforts. Be encouraged, and may God bless you richly for all you do for His Name.

  26. Principles are unchangeable! Giving 10% from your increase is the very core concept of tithing and you can’t even connect this with half of the occurrences of tithing in the Old Testament!

    – Abraham proves that you don’t have to give it from your own increase
    – Jacob’s tithe proves that it was not required
    – The Mosaic law proves that you don’t have to give it from your occupational income.
    – Israel’s army proves that half a percent is a worthy donation from the spoils of war.
    – Malachi proves that only food was given.
    – Jesus confirms that as well.

    If a witness was this inconsistent with their testimony in a court of law, the judge would disqualify their testimony as evidence.

    The only thing that is consistent, is that a synonym for ‘10%’ is the word ‘tithe’.

    – jared

  27. Gwaine says:

    The only thing that is consistent, is that a synonym for ‘10%’ is the word ‘tithe’.

    Why do some antitithers categorically say that ‘tithe’ is more than ‘10%’? (some have indeed argued that Israel’s tithe is about 23%; another categorically says that ‘when someone says the Jew gave ten percent, that isn’t true’) Would their inconsistencies then be ‘disqualified’ also?

    I agree with you, though, on the first line: “Principles are unchangeable!” The problem is that not many people expressing anger at the word ‘principle’ actually understand what it points to.

    • jackie says:

      Gwaine, Do not try and ignore the questions that was asked of you by some christians on this site. IS TITHING A LAW, YES OR NO. Its very simple. Do not throw up a smoke screen and try and change the subject. DO YOU ENCOURAGE TITHING OR OTHER LAWS like , burnt offerings,sin offerings, sabbath, circumsicion etc….

      Answer YES OR NO ,ignore people who are trying to suck up to you to find a friend because they have no life. LETS TALK ABOUT TRUTH NOW, because if you know that tithing is a law then A WITCH IS WHAT PAUL CALLED YOU PERIOD. I am just passing on the word of God.
      Paul used to kill christians because of the Mosiac law and now he is speaking against the christians who practise the law thinking that by doing so will please God. If you teach or encourage anyone to go back and practise the Mosiac law,Paul calls you a WITCH PERIOD

      • Gwaine says:

        @Jackie,

        I also asked you a simple question: have you answered it? If you took time to read my posts, you would have found your pretentious ‘questions’ quite unnecessary.

        Let me go back and show you my answer.
        ___

        Joel had commented and asked earlier: Gwaine, Tithing IS A LAW. Do you understand that or you need to ask Jesus about it?

        I had ALREADY made my point in responding to James in a similar point, and hwre’s what I said: ||First, tithing was a commandment in the Law (see Heb. 7:5) – big difference. (08/27/2010 at 2:17 am)|| If you don’t allow your vexations to blind you, please jackie for your own sake open your Bible and R-E-A-D that verse – Hebrews 7:5. “A commandment” in the Law is NOT equal to ‘the whole law’, for crying out loud!
        ____

        jackie: LETS TALK ABOUT TRUTH NOW, because if you know that tithing is a law then A WITCH IS WHAT PAUL CALLED YOU PERIOD. I am just passing on the word of God.

        : Haha, jackie. Just please calm down. Insults seem to be the very best you can offer – and that says a lot about you. Hebrews 7:5 says that the sons of Levi have “a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people” – a commandment is NOT to be confused for the entirety of the Law! Please, open your Bible and R-E-A-D it, if it does not say “a commandment” in that verse, I will withdraw this comment.

        And, No – Paul does not call anyone a witch if they point you to precisely what the Bible says. I have not asked anyone to “go back and practise the Mosiac law”, and if I have ever said so, then please quote me. If you don’t find any such statements in my comments, do you mind being honest and stop the shameless lies, please? It is below you to be brazenly lying on a public forum.
        ____

        jackie: Paul used to kill christians because of the Mosiac law and now he is speaking against the christians who practise the law thinking that by doing so will please God. If you teach or encourage anyone to go back and practise the Mosiac law,Paul calls you a WITCH PERIOD

        Gwaine: Please, jackie I ask again: quote any statement in my posts where I categorically asked anybody to ‘go back and practise the Mosaic law’. I am waiting for you to face up to that simple request. If you can’t find me doing so and you want to keep going round making these false allegations, you will only be showing your readers how dubious you can be. Quote me, or stop recycling that lie.

        Besides, if you have a heart for ‘truth’ at all, kindly answer my request and stop evading it:

        These are just a sample of some of the FACTS I stated and discussed – if your Bible is saying a totally different thing in those verses, please list them as I have done and then DENY the FACT of what those verses say as you find them in my posts! Save your weak insults and just show me that Paul never quoted any verse from the Law of Moses, or that he never quoted any OT verses at all to teach NT doctrines!

        jackie, why did you duck that one? Too much a challenge for you who are too busy with insults and pretending to be interested in ‘truth’? Please open you Bible and come back with more insults to DENY the FACT of what I posted – it will be such a wonder the sort of desperation emanating from me. Impress me with further calumny, haha.

      • Gwaine says:

        @jackie, please hurry up and make this simple for yourself.

        1. Please quote me anywhere you saw me saying that people should ‘go back and practise the Mosiac law’. I want to see that quote, the date and the time.

        2. If you can’t find me saying so, then by all means kindly refrain from the mischief of your false allegations.

        3. I have consistently said and maintained that Paul quoted verses from the Law of Moses to teach New Testament doctrines (Deuteronomy 25:4 – see 1 Corinthians 9:9-10 and 1 Timothy 5:18). Is this a FACT, or do you DENY that?

        4. I have also said that the Christian is NOT called to legalism, but rather to see the ‘principles’ set forth in the OT verses quoted by the apostles in the NT. Do you DENY this as well?

        5. Did you find any line in any of my posts saying what you accuse me of – that people should ‘go back and practise the Mosiac law’? Where did I say that? Please quote me, and I will consider it.

        Please don’t ignore these above^^. If you do, then you would leave me no choice than consider you someone desperate who’s bent on pushing false accusations for absolutely no reason – perhaps you will return to confirm it, I look forward to it.

    • Highlighting the errors of others to take the spotlight off of you is a good strategy gwaine, but your errors have not disappeared. I don’t care how you word it, but giving 10% off your increase is not an unchangeable principle.

      • Gwaine says:

        steward, please point out the ‘errors’ – it is that simple. How is it that you guys are too busy making excuses and NEVER ever discussing anything in what you allege?

        • I gave you examples that show how giving 10% off your increase is not an unchangeable principle, and you went off on some tangent about the errors of others.

          • Gwaine says:

            What errors did you point out in mine? You said I was using a ‘good strategy’ of highlighting the errors of others, and my errors have not disappeared, yes? Could you kindly show the errors beyond your excuses? Thanks.

          • If principles are unchangeable then how can tithing (giving 10% from your increase) be a principle when it is so inconsistent in the bible?
            http://www.tithing.com/blog/6-reasons-to-debate-tithing/comment-page-3/#comment-6250

          • Gwaine says:

            Do you understand the meaning of a ‘principle’? No offence, but I’m only asking because I don’t think it’s difficult for anyone to understand it is not a matter of exactitudes. This is why I hinted earlier that even some antitithers do not peg ‘tithe’ at only “10%”. A ‘principle’ does not mean one has to be so fastidiously exacting.

          • Freewillgiver says:

            Praise Jesus Gwaine!
            See this fellowship debate will give you tons of patience, longsuffering, along with tithe debate. Yes all of us anti tithers are fierce and quite challenging. Me and Tony seem to be on the softer side while others have more tough love latlely but Jesus ordained this. I love you and you can feel the passionate love of Jackie, Sam, Steward and Joel. Jesus knew everything we would say and write and he is using all things to work together for good. Somtimes friends call each other liars. Jesus did while loving the Pharisees, but praise him all in Christ do love our families and enemies.

            Tony pointed out just how close you are to the Anti tithers on so many issues this is part of what is so confusing to all of us. Tony brilliant when you said anti tithe preachers have little to gain!

            Sam I believe it was you, I love your logic that expecting blessings from actions can be as detrimental as running from a curse I have meditated on my own thinking in my relationships with my children and in alot of things.

            Jackie I love the passion you have against going back to the law. The law and grace dont mix but the law is still causing trouble in our lives. There are hundreds of sneaky ways I have the law instead of love in my actions. My wife can testify that I am meanest on Sundays. Somtimes Strick daddy is just a king entitled to his tithes of obediance. The opposite is searvant lay down your life for the sheep fathering zero entitlments.

            Us antitithers can begin to call names I pray they are in love of the diciples. No doubt ugly is often bennificial so keep it up as the spirit permits. Insults are some of the best things that happen to me. Insults are my enimies but Jesus in a round about way gave them to me. Usually my Christian friends including my Wife are against my leagalism.

            Gwaine I have the some of the same confusions and issus as Tony. Here is my take also..I never liked the talk of pricipals. I or researched much on pricipals. Are there more pricipals in Scripture than laws. When pricipal talk is uttered about tithes it sounds like vaugheness. How many pricipals are in the doctrine of tithes?
            However I have learned now that pricipals are things that do not change. Really this is new stuff for me and probably alot of Christians.

            That is why I always ask what is the pricipal behind “eat the tithes” I have never heard a sermon discussing how Christians can apply the pricipal behind eating the tithes in their lives today. When you have time you can answer. Gwaine you help strech my brain with your crazy fast typing or speech to text. Jesus made you unique.

            Goodnight friends and family in Jesus keep up the loving.

          • Gwaine says:

            Thank you again, freewillgiver.

            freewillgiver: Praise Jesus Gwaine!
            See this fellowship debate will give you tons of patience, longsuffering, along with tithe debate. Yes all of us anti tithers are fierce and quite challenging. Me and Tony seem to be on the softer side while others have more tough love latlely but Jesus ordained this. I love you and you can feel the passionate love of Jackie, Sam, Steward and Joel. Jesus knew everything we would say and write and he is using all things to work together for good. Somtimes friends call each other liars. Jesus did while loving the Pharisees, but praise him all in Christ do love our families and enemies.

            Could I be honest with you? You have said very important things – yes, in ‘debating’ anything, one has to be patient, and loads of experience will come. However, I would not class either you, Tony and Jeff (steward) along with the other lot (Sam, jackie and joel). No matter how passionately we may disagree on various issues, I have never read the former (steward, Tony and you) come forward with such low level vilification – I can’t remember any of the three of you using false accusations that you can’t prove, etc. As Christians, do we really need to come so low as to sling mud with pretentious ‘love’ and name-calling? What is all that for – just to “prove” antitithing or tithing?

            freewillgiver: Gwaine I have the some of the same confusions and issus as Tony. Here is my take also..I never liked the talk of pricipals. I or researched much on pricipals. Are there more pricipals in Scripture than laws. When pricipal talk is uttered about tithes it sounds like vaugheness. How many pricipals are in the doctrine of tithes? However I have learned now that pricipals are things that do not change. Really this is new stuff for me and probably alot of Christians.

            Actually, I hold nothing against you if you’re not comfortable with ‘principle’. Some who ridicule it just show they don’t understand what it means; and it is quite the norm for someone to deride what he/she does not understand.

            To answer your question, yes – there are loads of ‘principles’ in the NT derived directly from the OT. Take, for example, the word “sabbath”: it came directly from the Law of Moses given unto Israel. But when it is mentioned in the NT, it does not mean that we are to follow everything “exactly” as the Law of Moses teaches on the “sabbath”. People today argue that we’re not under the Law (which is very true) – but even in the New Covenant, the Bible says: “So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God” (Hebrews 4:9, ESV).

            So, while the Law of Moses speaks about the ‘sabbath’, the NT also speaks about ‘a sabbath’ as well – but the NT does not say we should do “exactly” as the people of Israel observed the Jewish sabbath. So, what is the ‘principle’ of sabbath? It simply points to “rest” – and we don’t have to be Jews to understand the new covenant ‘sabbath’ in Heb. 4:9.

            That was just an example. If we then seek to apply this in practical terms, how would I respond today? I would respond in the same way – Romans 14:5 (‘One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own ‘, ESV). The problem occurs when someone begins to push a particular day (like the ‘seventh day’) for Christians as the ‘sabbath’ and connects this with “salvation”. If someone regards a particular day as special, he does so to the Lord; if another does not regard the day, it is to the Lord he does not regard it. Why go about ‘debating’ and ‘arguing’ all day long to be ‘anti-sabbath’ and ‘pro-sabbath’ when Romans 14 is clearly not arguing for one side or the other?

            In this example above, a principle does not have to be a ‘rigid’ thing. This is why I have said that people should have the freedom and conviction to express their giving in the way they are persuaded – and nothing should be “enforced” upon anybody. We cannot “insist” that tithing is sinful or wrong or condemns anybody to hell; neither can we “insist” that people give tithes or they end up in hell. Tithing has absolutely NOTHING to do with anybody’s salvation – give as you want, and don’t argue to make anyone altogether stop tithing if they choose to do so.

            As you can see, I don’t have to come down to the level of trading insults over tithing or antitithing… or even use all kinds of false assertions and name-calling to mob people to stop tithing or start tithing. Let everyone hold their convictions without trying to argue legalism one way or another.

            freewillgiver: That is why I always ask what is the pricipal behind “eat the tithes” I have never heard a sermon discussing how Christians can apply the pricipal behind eating the tithes in their lives today. When you have time you can answer.

            I know a few pastors who have taught on the “principle” of tithing – some of them are acknowledged by antitithers who oppose tithing in any form. If you would like me to name a few, I could – please let me know.

            freewillgiver: Gwaine you help strech my brain with your crazy fast typing or speech to text. Jesus made you unique.

            Haha! freewillgiver… I wasn’t using speech-to-text (anyone can understand that from my typographic errors). Writing stuff online has been one of my hobbies – so there. Apologies for stretching you; but above that, may Jesus Christ continue to bless you much.

          • jackie says:

            Dr Dwaine F Gump, why are you not answering if tithing is in the law of Moses? Jesus talked about tithing and included tithing in Mathew 23:23. Unless you read that ,you have no right to post anymore comments on this site because you are deliberately ignoring what Jesus said.

            So what your saying Moses went up to meet God and God gave him “The Ten Principles” for Israel to keep ? You arogant little man,why are you trying to deceive so many people with these LIES ? There are people out there who are stupid and naive enough to believe this RUBBISH YOU POST HERE. Following the same thought pattern you are saying about tithing, What is the principle God was trying to promote when He said THOU SHALL NOT KILL ? or YOU SHALL NOT HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH ANIMALS. Are you saying that the Gwaine principle says you are allowed to have sexual relations with animals when its convenient or when your desperate like Gwaine ?

          • jackie says:

            Dr Gwaine gump,

            Its impossiple to discuss or debate the scriptures with anyone who denys the Law God gave Moses ever excisted. The level of foolish and uninformed rubbish that you think you know is beyond belief. I suggest for you to go seek medical help. Its hard to tell if you are a real christian or a muslim. The efforts you are trying here is nothing less than a psyciatric patient who likes to overdose on valium regularly

          • Gwaine says:

            @jackie,

            Please tell yourself the truth for once – it will help you. Every false allegation you and your antitithing brigade have thrown around are still left UNPROVEN – why then do you try cover up with all this hysteria? Hiding under your cheap slobbers is not going to wash your false allegations – it only helps to confirm your penchant for unnecessary calumny, as if that is what best highlights your own ‘Christian’ sanctimony.

          • Sam says:

            Dr Gwaine Gump, how to you apply the “principle” with CIRCUMCISION, SABBATH,SIN OFFERINGS WITH BLOOD OF ANIMALS, KILLING PEOPLE COMMITING ADULTRY ?

            Your views are so stupid and without substance its pathetic at best.
            Go back to kindergarten and learn the A B C D ….lol…

            People like you are so confused with your lies you do not know the diffrence between your head and your ass .

          • Gwaine says:

            I see you have completely closed your Bible and can no longer reason at all! Even though I’ve already dealt with those issues, you must by default pretend not to have seen it! The word “principle” has become your nightmare that’s probably why you’re so restless in your career of returning calumny, since honesty has completely deserted you and your lot!

            I already said that you and your gang will attack what you do not understand – it happens with those who’re too far gone in their legalism. Go and grow up to learn the meaning of that word (‘principle‘), then you’ll see why there’s no need for you and your alter ego (jackie) to go repeatedly maddening wild and irate ever since. Like you, your antitithing heroes are too scared of the word ‘principle’, that is why they shrink in their cubicles to accuse people of ‘telling lies’ for simply using that word to discuss anything in 1 Corinthians 9.

            Now Sam (and your alter ego, jackie), why are you ducking my request to quote me directly for your unsubstantiated and false accusations? I’m just so amazed that many antitithers like you will resort to deliberate lies just to hold unto your legalism – which is what your lot has been busily demonstrating on this blog. Have you lost all sense of shame that you can’t see what your falsehood is doing to your camp? Please get done with your legalism and penchant to false accusations that you cannot prove – it is more than disagraceful for you to resort to such antics and still claim to ‘worship’ God.

          • Sam says:

            Dr Gwaine Gumpy,you refuse to answer a direct quetions that was posted by someone here.Can you tell us why you do not wnat to answer if tithing is a law or not .You try to insult christians by saying we do not understand what the word “principle” means. God did not give Moses and the Jews “principles” GOD GAVE THEM THE TEN COMMANDMENTS not principles or suggestions.

            Its so clear how deep you are in this deception that you are trying to sell christians,that you do not even acknowledge the law of Moses anymore. Do you want to call it the law of Dr Gwaine Gump? What a pathetic joke when people are so prideful you are now denying Gods word, THE OLD TESTAMENT. Jesus quoted the LAW OF MOSES, is He Legalistic too.

            You call people who do not agree with your rubbish legalistic when they mentioned the law of tithing. Read it JESUS CALLED IT THE LAW OF THE PROPHETS, Paul called it the law in all his letters and a pathetic insignifigant stupid proud witch like you calls it “principles”

            God gave Moses 3 DIFFRENT LAWS, CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and JUDISCIAL LAW FOR THE JEWS, I think you do not have a clue about any of them. THEY WERE NOT “principles”

          • Gwaine says:

            Sam,
            Please keep your insults to yourself so you don’t burst your nerves. I can’t laugh enough at your desperations… but it seems to be second nature to you, so… :)
            ____

            Sam: ‘Read it JESUS CALLED IT THE LAW OF THE PROPHETS,’
            (b) the correct phrase used by Lord Jesus Christ in His teachings is “the Law AND the prophets” (see Matt. 7:12; Matt. 22:40; and Luke 16:16); and not ‘the Law OF the prophets’. Infact, if you ever read your Bible at all, you will not find the expression “the Law OF the Prophets” – rather, it is always “the Law and the Prophets” (John 1:45; Acts 13:15 and Rom. 3:21). Please open your Bible and READ it for yourself – it doesn’t cost a limb!
            ____

            Sam: ‘Paul called it the law in all his letters…’
            (a) There is no epistle where Paul called it “the Law”; the only place where we read of it in that connection is in the same Hebrews 7:5 I already quoted several times, where it is called “a commandment in the Law“. Please open your Bible and READ it instead of spewing out your unnecessary paroxysm of hate. :)

            For you to put your ignorance in capital letters just demonstrates to the world that never read your Bible – little wonder you blow your top when these things are pointed out to you and your lot.
            ____

            Sam… and a pathetic insignifigant stupid proud witch like you calls it “principles”.

            Sam, I’m grateful for your outburst; but none of the things you have alleged against me are true – NONE. That is why for several days running since you and your lot resorted to false accusations, I have challenged you to please prove your allegations by directly QUOTING ME for what you have accused against me. Since you cannot do so, I leave you to your conscience.

            Cheers.

          • joel says:

            Dr Qwaine Gump, Explain what Jesus said in Mathew23:23 in detail or accept that you are a fraud and a liar.

          • Gwaine says:

            @joel,
            I’ve replied you directly on Matthew 23:23 and do not wish to repeat myself. Where did I lie to you – please quote me directly or help your alter ego(s) to keep up your false accusations.

          • joel says:

            Professor Gwaine Gump,where and when did you reply and answer on Mathew 23:23 ?
            You cant stop lying. Is tithing a law, YES or NO

          • Gwaine says:

            @joel,

            Professor Gwaine Gump,where and when did you reply and answer on Mathew 23:23 ?
            You cant stop lying. Is tithing a law, YES or NO

            When you first asked that question on Matt. 23:23, my answer was:
            “@joel, heartfelt thanks for your comments. I have dealt with Matthew 23:23 in the past. If you want the link, I will gladly post it here again.”
            _____

            Since I have tried twice just now to post the link and my replies do not appear (probably the blog has an unsuitable software for adding links), you can search “ChristianPF Gwaine Matthew 23:23″ and scroll down the page to my post on February 27, 2009 at 8:02 am.

          • joel says:

            Dr Gwaine Gump, Who IS LYING NOW, what can I say Gwaine IS A FRAUD AND A LIAR…lol
            Dr Fraud Gwaine well well well, WHO IS LYING NOW !….lol ASNSWER THE QUESTIONS OR LEAVE THIS BLOG. LIES AND MORE LIES…lol ..

            IS TITHING A LAW ? YES or NO ?

            Lies and more lies …lol…. Post it but LIES ,LIES, LIES AND MORE LIES …lol…WE GOT YOU NOW, LIES, LIES, AND MORE LIES …lol.. twisting scriptures is all your good at
            A PERSON WHO MANIPULATES OR LIES AND TWIST SCRIPTURES FOR THE PURPOSE OF DECEIVING OTHERS IS A WITCH, a WITCH CAST A SPELL ON PEOPLE EVEN CHRISTIANS TO MAKE THEM DO WHAT THEY WANT, WITCH, IS A LIAR AND A FRAUD. Read Galatians 3:1-10

            WE HAVE WITCH AMONG US Dr Fraud Gwaine lies and more lies…lol..

          • Gwaine says:

            @joel
            Proverbs 10:18, NLT.

          • joel says:

            Dr Gwaine, Define what a witch does. Its ok, LIE,MANIPULATE, DEFRAUD.
            Thats you Dr Fraud Gwaine…lol….

          • James says:

            I have never been wrong before Dr gwaine, I hope you will be able to come back and comment on this site again. We will see if the curse Paul declared in Galatians has any effect on people who want to test its power. If you are guilty of deceiving christians then let us wait and see what happens to you Dr Fraud Gwaine.

          • Gwaine says:

            @James,

            I have never been wrong before Dr gwaine, I hope you will be able to come back and comment on this site again. We will see if the curse Paul declared in Galatians has any effect on people who want to test its power. If you are guilty of deceiving christians then let us wait and see what happens to you Dr Fraud Gwaine.

            If your ‘curse’ fails as it has always failed in the past, then you will indeed be proving the reality of Proverbs 26:2 NLT to show that your accusations against me have all been false – which is why none of you can prove what you allege. Slander makes you exactly what you are (Prov. 10:18, NLT).

          • Sam says:

            Professor Gwaine, here you are again twisting scripture and denying that the law God gave Moses was real. Galatians 3:1-3, Do you have any idea what that means ? I will now leave you to your fantasy dream world.

          • Gwaine says:

            After dribbling yourself around to show you never read your Bible, you can now leave me in peace (nevermind that neither you nor your alter ego have proven your false accusations).

            And FYI, Galatians 3:1-3 does not refer to tithes at all, for tithes have absolutely NOTHING to do with anybody’s salvation. Using Galatians to argue against tithes is a very cheap cop-out and quite an illiterate argument – go and read what Paul said in Romans 3:31, ESV (“Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law”) – open your Bible and READ it.

          • Sam says:

            Dr Gwaine Gump, what law wasPaul refering to in Galatians 3:1-3 ? Paul meant the whole Mosiac Law not just a few commandments. You are so thick its impossible to get through.

          • Gwaine says:

            Sam,

            Dr Gwaine Gump, what law wasPaul refering to in Galatians 3:1-3 ? Paul meant the whole Mosiac Law not just a few commandments. You are so thick its impossible to get through.

            I have no problem with the Law (Romans 7:12); but I would have loved to see you directly quote Galatians 3:1-3 and find the word ‘tithe’ there. Since you guys are too picky with your selective reading, please show me where Paul said anything about ‘tithes’ in Galatians.

            If you want to use Galatians 3 (or any chapter of Galatians) to argue that Paul meant “the whole Mosaic Law”, I have no problem with that either – I would only ask you to cross over to Romans 3:31 and see what the same Paul said about the Law. Incase you are too scared to read that verse, let me quote it for you and your alter egos again:

            (a) “Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law” (Romans 3:31, ESV).

            Further, if you condemn “the whole Law of Moses” using Galatians 3:1-3, then by all means you would have to condemn a lot of Christian doctrines that have their basis in that same Law. I have quoted 1 Corinthians 9:9-10 where Paul open declared that he was quoting from the same Law of Moses to teach ‘Christian’ doctrines – why are you antitithers not condemning Paul on that? It is the same ‘Law of Moses’ that the apostles used for teaching about NT Christian marriages (1 Corinthians 7) – do we hear antitithers cough on that one also?

            It is hypocritical to hoot about “the whole Law of Moses” when it suits your convulsions; but when it comes to other obvious Christian doctrines derived from the same Law of Moses, you hypocritically pass in silence, pretend you lost your reading skills, and then return with more insults to repeat the same empty drivels.

            For several days running now, I tried to reason with you guys about Paul’s handling of the Law by noting that he and the apostles quoted from the Law of Moses to teach NT Christian doctrines – a FACT which none of you can deny. Just so nobody can claim to have missed it, I also left you and your brigade a direct challenge to come out boldy and DENY that FACT. Have you made any attempt? WHY are you returning to wave excuses and skits up and down this page pretending you can no longer read?

            You’ve thrown allegations here and there that you cannot prove – we all know that already; but please exercise a little shamefacedness and deal directly with the issues. If your unsubstantiated fallacies are the best you can wave for your antitithing charade, little wonder you’re all completely silent on the FACT I challenged you to DENY! Grow some spine and READ your Bible instead of frantically throwing your slanders about like your first-aid.

          • James says:

            Hi Dr Gwain,

            Are you a christian ? From what I read you have manged to avoid answering quetions from some christians on this site. Please could explain why you call these christian liars when you refuse to answer if the LAW OF MOSES ever excisted or if TITHING IS A LAW.

            Please give us an answer to clear all these accusations against you that you are a fraud, liar, or even a witch

          • Gwaine says:

            @James,

            Hi Dr Gwain,
            Are you a christian ? From what I read you have manged to avoid answering quetions from some christians on this site. Please could explain why you call these christian liars when you refuse to answer if the LAW OF MOSES ever excisted or if TITHING IS A LAW.

            Please give us an answer to clear all these accusations against you that you are a fraud, liar, or even a witch

            Yes, I am a Christian. And Yes, I have answered their questions by referring to Hebrews 7:5 and asking you and your friends to open your Bibles and READ it! But no, I have no such flattering titles of ‘Dr.’ to my name, thank you.

            Please patiently scroll up and see how many times I have answered the question you’re wondering about. Please answer me, if you may: what does Hebrews 7:5 say in your own Bible (please quote it and name your translation or version)? Thank you.

            Does your accusing me of being a ‘witch’ show the ‘Christian’ spirit in you? And by that name-calling, what did you hope to achieve for your antitithing camp?

            Again, I ask: what is the lie you have read in my posts – please quote me. Did I defraud you or your family at any time? Why are you all forcing yourselves to be so hilariously malicious over things you cannot prove? :)

          • Aussie says:

            Hi,

            Gwaine, I just finished reading your comments and I have to admit that what you posted here are so fragmented. Its very hard to tell if you are really serious or just kidding.
            You pick and choose which part of the bible you believe in and which one you ignore. I know a person just like you he has a split pesonality and he is receiving treament in a psyciatric hospital.This person is being treated for severe depression and anxiety.
            I suggest that you go seek medical help asap.

          • Gwaine says:

            Aussie, thanks for your comments. I’m not interested in such calumny, so keep it to yourself.

          • Frank J says:

            Hello, whats up ? Gwaine my man, from your comments its sound like you do not believe in Moses. Thats ok brother, its a free world . Who cares if you believe in the ten commandment or not .As long as you have peace brother and love your neighbour thats cool. Law or principle who cares a ? Just wondering Gwaine, Do you believe in the old testament brother ?

          • Gwaine says:

            Frank, nice to read from you. No worries, bro – I’m doing quite well and hope better for you.

            Actually, I believe in what was given to Moses as well all the prophets in both OT and NT. A few times I had tried to attest to that by citing Romans 3:31, ESV. However, that does not mean I intended to ask any Christian to come under Judaism. Rather, I have consistently made the point that the NT is founded upon the OT – in other words, the OT is the foundation of the NT.

            So when we read the OT (commonly called the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms – Luke 24:44), we should understand that they speak to us Christians today (Romans 15:4, NIV); not in any way as to ask us to live our lives as Jews, but rather that we should be able to see the spiritual meanings of whatever we read from the OT.

            The bottomline is love, as you said – and to that I say an absolute yes.

            God bless you bro.

          • joel says:

            NIce one Dr Gwaine Fraud, The veil was torn in the temple when Jesus died. Once again you mix the old and new covenant. You ignorant witch, THe OLD COVENANT WAS CANCELLED FOR THE NEW.

            Can you mix the blood of Jesus with the blood of animals ?

            You are one thick individual, Law and Grace dont mix. Its easier to teach a child then you,
            LAW is not of faith, thats what Paul said in Galatians 3:12

          • Gwaine says:

            joel

            You are one thick individual, Law and Grace dont mix. Its easier to teach a child then you,
            LAW is not of faith, thats what Paul said in Galatians 3:12

            Please QUOTE me where you ever read me mixing Law and Grace. If you cannot quote me, I’m satisfied that Proverbs 10:18, NLT answers your type.

          • Frank J says:

            Hi brother Gwaine, Can I ask you sometihng why dont you answer the questions these people are asking to stop them from saying all these things brother? I read Mathew 23:23 and Jesus said that tithing is included in the Law of Moses bro. What do you say about that man? Why dont you give them an answer to stop all this bro? Be cool brother

          • Gwaine says:

            Frank,

            Hi brother Gwaine, Can I ask you sometihng why dont you answer the questions these people are asking to stop them from saying all these things brother?

            Don’t be perturbed, bro… I already answered them – Hebrews 7:5. Please scroll up and see how many times I have given them my answer with that verse and also asked them to OPEN their Bibles and READ it for themselves. That verse clearly refers to tithing under Judaism as “a commandment in the Law“; and “a commandment” does NOT equate to “the whole Law”. If their Bible does not say what I said in Hebrews 7:5, then they should stop dancing on ice and come out boldly to DENY it for us all to see. WHY are they piffling and pretending they never saw it anywhere on this page that I’ve already answered and repeated my answer with Hebrews 7:5?!? WHY? Perhaps you should ask them for us all… that would be awesome! :))

            What is the difference in all this, you may ask? Like I said, “a commandment” is contained in the Law – it does not equate to “the whole Law” (as many antitithers skit around this FACT – example, Sam on 09/02/2010 at 4:44 am, pls scroll up and see for yourself)!

            Other matters are also included in the Law; and anyone who is familiar with God’s Word or has the faintest clue, will immediately see it. That is the way scholars have understood it; and that is how even the Jews in Jesus’ day understood it. An example is Matthew 22:36 where someone asked Jesus the question: “Master, which is the great commandment in the law?” That should show that there is a difference between “a commandment” and “the Law”, for the former is only part of the latter.

            This is why they have absolutely NOTHING to say when I pointed out that the apostles quoted the Law of Moses and the OT to teach NT doctrines. If they want to condemn the whole Law, they are free to do so – as long as they would apply the same measure to tear out Romans 3:31from their Bibles. You ask them if they also never saw that verse. Instead of calmly considering that point, they went irate. Thank God for the internet – it’s amazing how they would’ve carved anyone they hate with daggers if they ever met face-to-face! :))

            Relax, Frank bro. Desperate people who want to pretend they cannot see my answers will repeat the same ad hominems, no matter how many times the answer stares them in the face. NONE of them can DENY the fact of my having posted Hebrews 7:5 repeatedly. NONE. Not satisfied, they recycle their false accusations that they cannot prove and keep repeating their carping until the posts here go to the next pageso that any newby who then visists the blog would assume unwittingly that there’s any substance in their hysteria.

            It brings Jesus’ remarkable statement in Luke 22:68 (KJV) to mind – “And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.” How many times have I asked them simple questions – have they attempted to answer ANY of them? WHERE? Why are they pretending they cannot see them? Just curious… if you asked them, what would they tell you about ducking and not answering my questions?
            ____

            I read Mathew 23:23 and Jesus said that tithing is included in the Law of Moses bro. What do you say about that man? Why dont you give them an answer to stop all this bro? Be cool brother

            On Matthew 23:23, I’m glad to read how you stated it – “Jesus said that tithing is included in the Law of Moses bro.” Is that any different from Hebrews 7:5 saying that it is “a commandment in the Law“?

            As I said above, “a commandment” is contained (or “included“) in the Law – just as other matters (“the weightier matters” – justice and mercy and faithfulness, NIV) are included in the Law. We cannot make “a commandment” to be greater than “a commandment” and then pretend that it is equal to “the whole Law”. That was what I tried to point out to Sam – but it’s obvious the chap no longer reads his Bible.

            Now could I ask you to please check Hebrews 7:5 and see if these things are so. All I would have thought of these folks was simply READ that verse in their Bibles and then quote it to show that what I said is not what that verse says. WHY are they hyperventilating and pretending they never saw my answer repeated several times with that verse? What is sooo scary about that verse in the Bible that they can’t do the simple thing of checking it out for themselves?

            Frank bro, thank you again. Proverbs 10:18 (NLT) tells us what to make of their slander and false accusations – and I’m quite satisfied to leave them foaming in the mouth if that’s all they know how to do. I commend these things to you in hope that you please let me know if the verses quoted in my replies are different from their copies of the Bible.

            Cheers.

          • Gwaine says:

            I see you have completely closed your Bible and can no longer reason at all! Even though I’ve already dealt with those issues, you must by default pretend not to have seen it! The word “principle” has become your nightmare that’s probably why you’re so restless in your career of returning calumny, since honesty has completely deserted you and your lot!

            I already said that you and your gang will attack what you do not understand – it happens with those who’re too far gone in their legalism. Go and grow up to learn the meaning of that word (‘principle‘), then you’ll see why there’s no need for you and your alter ego (jackie) to go repeatedly maddening wild and irate ever since. Like you, your antitithing heroes are too scared of the word ‘principle’, that is why they shrink in their cubicles to accuse people of ‘telling lies’ for simply using that word to discuss anything in 1 Corinthians 9.

            Now Sam (and your alter ego, jackie), why are you ducking my request to quote me directly for your unsubstantiated and false accusations? I’m just so amazed that many antitithers like you will resort to deliberate lies just to hold unto your legalism – which is what your lot has been busily demonstrating on this blog. Have you lost all sense of shame that you can’t see what your falsehood is doing to your camp? Please get done with your legalism and penchant to false accusations that you cannot prove – it is more than disagraceful for you to resort to such antics and still claim to ‘worship’ God.

          • Sam says:

            Dr Gwaine,

            Why are you refusing to answer simple questions asked on this site ?

            IS TITHING A LAW ? Yes or No

            ARE YOU A WITCH PRETENDING TO BE A CHRISTIAN ?

            Please give your answer asap and dont tell us you already gave your answer because thats A LIE. Just say you DO NOT KNOW ITS OK, thats an answer.

          • Gwaine says:

            @Sam,

            Since you don’t want to read my replies, even though I already did, no point trying to help you. My last word to you and jackie is Proverbs 10:18, NLT.

          • Sam says:

            STOP LYING DR FRAUD GWAINE, YOU NEVER REPLIED
            GIVE US AN ANSWER

            IS TITHING A LAW ? YES or NO

          • jackie says:

            So lets look at Romans 3:31 Dr Gwaine, Pay attention, Are we allowed to kill,steal,lie, covet ?
            THere is nothing wrong with THE LAW, But Paul was saying DID YOU RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT BY KEEPING – sabbath,paying food tithes, killing people who commit adultry,killing rebelious teenagers, celebrating passover ?

            Apostle Paul said those who try to keep the Law to draw near to God ARE CUT OFF FROM CHRIST(GRACE) Galatians 5:4 NKJ,AMP,NLT,Message

            Unless you understand those basic scriptures you have NO IDEA WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING HERE

            Goodbye Dr Fraud Gwaine….lol…

          • Gwaine says:

            @jackie,
            Please QUOTE Romans 3:31 and discuss it.
            – Does it say that you as a Christian CANNOT void the Law by faith?
            – Does it say that “On the contrary, we uphold the Law”?
            – Does the word “we” in that verse refer to Christians?
            – Does the statement “uphold the Law” mean the same as making it “void”?

            You and your lot have never wanted to reason; but if you care, then please answer those basic questions and let’s take it from there – then I might as well show you why scholars also speak about “principles” when discussing where Paul cited verse from the Law of Moses in teaching NT doctrines.
            ___

            Reminder: I have consistently made clear that –
            – Christians are NOT called to legalism (2 Cor. 3:6)
            – The OT Scriptures (including the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms) still speak to Christians today (Romans 15:4)
            – the problem is NOT with the Law, for the NT says that the Law is holy and spiritual (Rom. 7:12 & 14)
            – hence, when we read the OT, we should not be seeing only the letter of the Law; but rather, we should be seeing its spiritual meaning. The former (‘letter of the Law‘) is world apart from the latter (spiritual meaning)

            If therefore you have anything to counter in ANY of the points listed above, take them one by one and show me what is wrong in them. That way, we can progress this discussion – or if you don’t want to discuss, then only return with more calumny. Either way, it will become obvious what you choose.

          • Gwaine says:

            And yes, jackie (and your boys)… scholars have spoken about “principles” when discussing Paul’s quoting verses from the Law of Moses to teach NT doctrines. If you therefore assume that those who speak about “principles” are all the things you have accused against me, then we shall see what you make of those scholars as well.

          • jackie says:

            Dr Gwaine, So the scholars are above Paul who wrote letters and most of the new testament ? Lets get this straight, you said we are liars if we dont read your comments and explain Romans 3:31.

            You foolish man, are you saying we are encouraging christians to keep the sabbath,circumsicion, ceremonial cleansing,sin offerings,burnt offerings ? THE LAW IS PERFECT, BUT THE LAW DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHTEOUS OR BAPTISE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.Thats the answer for Romans 3:31

            Explain in your own words what Galatians 5:3-4 means you proud and arrogant witch. Paul said if you keep one law you need to keep the whole Mosaic Law. He said if you get yourself CIRCUMSICE YOU NEED TO Kill people who commit adultry,people who break the sabbath not to sit together with non Jewish people,not to eat pork, make sin offerings,burnt offerings and restore the whole Levitical Priesthood. Sow the veil God tore in the temple. AND TELL JESUS HIS BLOOD IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO CLEAN Dr Gwaine Thick Gumps sins. You pathetic arrogant selfish WITCH

          • Gwaine says:

            @jackie,
            For the sakes of people like Frank J, I will reply in detail – if you care to read it at all. Please pay close attention to what I say, and not interpolate your own red herring to argue away from what I’m saying.

            jackie: Dr Gwaine, So the scholars are above Paul who wrote letters and most of the new testament ?

            Please quote me – I did not say or imply that at all. Since you and your lot have been attacking any mention of the word “principles”, my simple and self-explanatory statement was that ‘scholars have spoken about “principles” when discussing Paul’s quoting verses from the Law of Moses to teach NT doctrines‘. That does not suggest they placed themselves above Paul. Someone discussing Paul’s use of the OT is not the same thing as being above Paul. If either you, joel, James or Sam have been so acrid against the term “principles”, then what do you make of such scholars who use that word as I have said?

            jackie: Lets get this straight, you said we are liars if we dont read your comments and explain Romans 3:31.

            Wrong again! Please QUOTE ME anywhere you saw that in my posts. You can’t accuse me of what I did not say; that is why I have often challenged you guys to QUOTE ME directly rather than make unfounded excuses.

            Rather, I asked you and your boys (Sam, James, joel) to prove the false accusations (the lies) you made against me directly – that was why I have been asking you to “quote me”. NONE of you did so at anytime, but just went on and on and on, slandering and besmirching me on things you don’t read anywhere in my posts. Do you care to go back and answer my questions now, or should I wait forever for you to prove your false accusations?

            As regards Romans 3:31, I noted that NONE of you have discussed what Paul declared in that verse when he said that Christians cannot void the Law by faith, but rather uphold it (NLT). This was why I had to outline a few questions to make it simple for us to discuss them if you are willing, instead of evading them and returning with calumny. Of course, I did not expect you wanted to discuss, which explains why you did not answer the questions but returned with insults and screraming your lungs out in capital letters! That’s quite the spirit… it helps your legalism, so carry on.

            jackie: You foolish man, are you saying we are encouraging christians to keep the sabbath,circumsicion, ceremonial cleansing,sin offerings,burnt offerings ?

            THis is why you don’t read at all! Did I say any of those things you allege there? WHERE? Why don’t you quote me directly for all these hilariously false statements you’re making?

            I have made my point about such things as circumcision, the sabbath, etc. several times on this page alone; and since you are pretending you didn’t see it, let me remind you:

            (a) on circumcision, my reply to Tony (08/30/2010 at 5:28 am) >>

            The subject was very important, as it rested on salvation (see Acts 15:1 – ‘Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved‘, KJV). The question was: should the Gentiles be circumcised in order to be saved? The answer both from Paul and other apostles is a resounding ‘No’.

            (b) on sabbath, my reply to freewillgiver (08/30/2010 at 10:59 am) >>

            To answer your question, yes – there are loads of ‘principles’ in the NT derived directly from the OT. Take, for example, the word “sabbath”: it came directly from the Law of Moses given unto Israel. But when it is mentioned in the NT, it does not mean that we are to follow everything “exactly” as the Law of Moses teaches on the “sabbath”. People today argue that we’re not under the Law (which is very true) – but even in the New Covenant, the Bible says: “So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God” (Hebrews 4:9, ESV).

            I went on to explain my point about the sabbath to freewillgiver:

            So, while the Law of Moses speaks about the ’sabbath’, the NT also speaks about ‘a sabbath’ as well – but the NT does not say we should do “exactly” as the people of Israel observed the Jewish sabbath. So, what is the ‘principle’ of sabbath? It simply points to “rest” – and we don’t have to be Jews to understand the new covenant ’sabbath’ in Heb. 4:9.

            I could quote you loads of statement directly from my posts about the circumcision, the sabbath, etc – but NONE of the things you allege against me bear any weight!

            In my comments on circumcision, the sabbath, etc., I have referred to the following verses:
            – 1 Corinthians 7:19
            – Galatians 5:6
            – Galatians 6:15
            – Hebrews 4:9
            If you find anything wrong or largely out of joint with the verses I quoted and how I discussed them, please point them out and quote them as you find in your Bible – that way, we can open the Bible and see what you’re quoting and then sort out your discomfiture. If you feel that Hebrews 4:9 did not say that a sabbath rest REMAINS for the people of God, please come out boldly and DENY it, instead of returning with more desperate excuses to argue what I never said at any time!

          • Gwaine says:

            @jackie,

            jackie: Explain in your own words what Galatians 5:3-4 means you proud and arrogant witch.

            There’s no need to resort to such acrid language, jackie. Slander only makes you a fool, Proverbs 10:18, NLT.

            Here’s what Galatians 5:3-4 points out –
            (a) the basic point is about JUSTIFICATION. Many people seek to be “justified” by the works of the Law because they do not understand either Law or grace. Paul (as well the other apostles) make clear that no one is justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ (he already said so in Gal. 2:16 and 3:11; as well consistently taught that same message everywhere else – Acts 13:39; Rom. 3:20).
            (b) if anyone was seeking to be justified by the works of the Law, the first thing to do is to be circumcised (every man who accepts circumcision is obligated to keep the whole law‘). That is exactly the procedure – circumcision first, then the keeping of the Law by works. This is the same thing we read in Acts 15:1 & 5 – the argument by those who did not understand Law and grace said that it was “necessary to circumcise” believers and then “to order them to keep the law of Moses”. Paul himself recognized this point, for in Romans 2:25 ESV he affirms that “circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law”.
            (c) YET, in that same Galatians 5, Paul says that NEITHER “circumcision” NOR “uncircumcision” counts! “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6). The same thing is said in Gal. 6:15, ESV – “For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation”. Again in 1 Cor. 7:19 ESV, his message is the same: “For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.”
            (d) as a side note, let me remind that even though Paul did not encourage circumcision, he nonetheless circumcised Timothy in Acts 16:3 – it is clear that by doing so, Paul was not trying to “justify” Timothy in the sight of God, for he had argued that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything.

            I’ve take time to explain the basis of Galatians 5, so no one comes back with inane excuses for what I did not say. The basic argument in Galatians 5 is JUSTIFICATION, and the point is that nobody is justified by the works of the Law.

            However, I have also noted several times that TITHES are never spoken at all in connection with JUSTIFICATION. The Jews did not tithe in order to be “justified” for salvation; Abraham did not tithe to the priest of the most High God in order to be “justified”; nor was Jacob seeking “justification” with God in speaking about tithes – and no NT reference anywhere records tithes in connection with “justification”. Tithes have absolutely NOTHING to do with “justification”, that is why Galatians 5 rather argues “circumcision” instead of anything else.

            There is not a single line in any of my posts where I ever argued to make anyone seek justification by circumcision or tithes or sabbath or the Law of Moses! NONE! If therefore any one of you can find any such statements to the contrary, please QUOTE ME directly – that way, your false accusations will be weighty, and not the piffling you’ve been throwing around.

            : Paul said if you keep one law you need to keep the whole Mosaic Law.

            Sorry, Paul in Galatians 5 said if you accept circumcision, then you are obligated to keep the whole Law. Circumcision is the basis upon which anyone was to keep the Law of Moses (see Exodus 12:48; cf. Acts 15:5; and Romans 2:25). A man cannot keep the Law as a Jew except he was circumcised (Acts 15:1 & 5); and I did not ask anyone to go and seek “justification” by being circumcised in the flesh like a Jew!

            : He said if you get yourself CIRCUMSICE YOU NEED TO Kill people who commit adultry,people who break the sabbath not to sit together with non Jewish people,not to eat pork, make sin offerings,burnt offerings and restore the whole Levitical Priesthood.

            Please stop screaming out your inane ignorance! You first need to understand Paul’s argument about “circumcision in the flesh” before spewing your dross! After the conference in Jerusalem in Acts 15, did Paul not go on to circumcise Timothy in Acts 16:3? WHY did he do so? Did Paul then ask Timothy to go about killing people or any of those things you argued? The vacuous assertions coming from you guys just show that you never READ your Bibles at all!

            I’ve made clear points about how Paul handled circumcision in the NT – if you want me to highlight them again, I will gladly do so if you are willing to open your Bible and READ them for yourself! If you want to go about killing people, just go ahead; but don’t thrash about with empty drivels.

            Second, the Law did not say anywhere that getting circumcised forbids you from sitting together with non Jewish people! The Jews cannot find any verse in the Torah that says such a thing! The Law made provision for non-Jews to dwell among the Jews, just two examples:
            (a) Exodus 20:10 speaks of the stranger/sojourner within the gates of the Jews
            (b) Deut. 24:14 also tells the Jews to recognise non-Jews that were in their land within their gates
            Many of the Jews had later come up with their own ideas to claim that Jews were not to sit together among non-Jews (even the apostle Peter initially fell for that misrepresentation – Gal. 2:12-13). I am not aware of any verse in the Law stipulating that Jews were “not to sit together with non Jewish people” – please quote me the verse to check it up, or just shut up altogether on your illiterate piffle!

            jackie:Sow the veil God tore in the temple. AND TELL JESUS HIS BLOOD IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO CLEAN Dr Gwaine Thick Gumps sins. You pathetic arrogant selfish WITCH

            Where did I ever say any such things, jackie? Your desperations are just so classic of your legalism, and I thank you for not being able to hide it this time around.

          • James says:

            Witch gwaine, Right there, You have said CIRCUMSICION is connected with JUSTIFICATION and you have managed to try and separate TITHING as not INCLUSIVE OF THE LAW.

            I will again say it very slowly for you, CIRCUMSICION IS A LAW that was given to the Jews

            TITHING IS A LAW that was also given to the Jews.

            For you to practise any of this Law again you NEED TO PRACTISE ALL THE REST.
            CIVIL LAW————-
            CEREMONIAL LAW—–
            JUDISCIAL LAW ——WAS ALL GIVEN TO THE JEWS BY GOD

            Read the Old Testament first before you comment

            Witch gwaine CAN NOT PRACTISE JUST ONE AND LEAVE THE OTHERS

            Its the same as arguing that STEALING, SIN OFFERINGS, FALSE WITNESS is not in the Mosaic Law

          • Frank J says:

            Hi brother Gwaine, Things dont look good for you bro, Galatians 5:3-4 does not agree with your comments my man. I have to admit Galatians 5:3-4 says it all brother. I think Paul was saying either the Law or Grace not both. Im sorry brother I agree with Sam,Jackie, Joel and others we cant mix Law with Grace. Chill brother.

          • Gwaine says:

            @Frank J,

            Hi brother Gwaine, Things dont look good for you bro, Galatians 5:3-4 does not agree with your comments my man. I have to admit Galatians 5:3-4 says it all brother. I think Paul was saying either the Law or Grace not both. Im sorry brother I agree with Sam,Jackie, Joel and others we cant mix Law with Grace. Chill brother.

            (1) For your sake I used the opportunity in my rejoinder to jackie to outline the basic point in Galatians 5. That chapter simply talks about ‘justification‘, and argues that if anyone is seeking to be justified by the Law, they first have to be “circumcised”.
            (2) I never asked anyone to seek justification from the Law of Moses; nor did I ask anyone to become “circumcised” in order to keep the Law. I have often made the point that Paul does not argue for legalism but for spiritual meaning of what the Law says. This is why he also circumcised Timothy in Acts 16:3 without trying to “justify” the latter by ‘circumcision’ or the Law of Moses. Nor did Paul ask Timothy to go about killing people after he was circumcised!
            (3) No problem agreeing with them, Frank; but I did not mix up grace with Law. NEVER. I have rather repeatedly quoted Paul’s satatement in Romans 3:31 – Christians CANNOT void the Law by faith; on the contrary, “we uphold the Law”. Paul very clearly did not mix up Law and Grace; but did he not say boldy that “we uphold the Law”? Yes or No? I have explained this over and over in saying that the Christian is not called to the legalism of the letter of the Law; so I don’t see what really is the problem.

            Thanks Frank, I’m cool.

            ___

            If anyone finds me mixing Law and Grace, please quote my statements directly instead of spewing hate and making unfoundedly false accusations about what I never said anywhere.

          • joel says:

            Dr gwaine fraud, This is why I do not want to read your comments its so twisted your interpretations are false and misleading you need to be brain dead to even consider it .

            You do not have to try and interpret Galatian 5:3-4 Its so clear even a child can understand what it says if you read with a humble heart. Circumsicion IS A LAW that was given. Paul said to keep one you need to keep the whole Mosaic Law. Stop your lies about mixing Grace with the law.You can not change what the scripture says you pathetic uneducated arrogant witch.

          • Gwaine says:

            How long are you going to keep up your inane shrill, joel? You guys asked for my understanding of Galatians 5:3-4, and I obliged. Now you come back with such cacophony that you don’t want to read it, and yet you’re too busy foaming behind your PC.

            Please quote me where I ever mixed grace and law? Why do you know nothing better than to keep up your legalism making false accusations that you do not read in my posts?

            My answer is still the same to you – curse all you want, your curses will return upon your own head. It is by by the same tongue you spew your hatred that you will crawl into your worship cubicle tomorrow to “praise” God – and yet James 3:10 completely escapes you! Keep on cursing – that much is what your chrsitianity is about.

          • Gwaine says:

            joel:’ Circumsicion IS A LAW that was given. Paul said to keep one you need to keep the whole Mosaic Law.’

            That’s okay – since you didn’t calm down to read my explanation of the same Galatians 5:3-4. So, since you’re bent on ‘circumcision’ to keep the whole Law, then may I ask you to please check Acts 16:3 – the same Paul circumcised Timothy. When that happened, WHERE do you read Paul asking Timothy to “keep the whole Mosaic Law” because of that circumcision? Where?

            All your frantic measures to throw your weak curses around is the reason why you never grow and show clearly that you never take time to READ your Bible.

          • joel says:

            The CURSE you are laughing at is not by me or any christian on earth today. The CURSE I mentioned to you is the CURSE by Apostle Paul that you are challenging its power. THe Holy Spirit inspired Paul to put that CURSE in the bible for people like you. Lets just see then what happens Mr Gwaine because its not me who put it in the bible.

            Just see if the CURSE has any power Mr Gwaine, I would not be so prideful and arrogant if I were you.

          • freewillgiver says:

            MR. Grace, Welfare, Altruistic, Inviting, Nurturing, Evangelist of Moneytithe Nutrality. How can a partial system witch makes parcels of land be impartial? How can a Taxing, Imperial, Tribute, Hire, Entitlment, Subordination= Tithes help the last to be first and the first to be last?

          • Gwaine says:

            @freewillgiver,

            Sorry I meant to say Jesus love is Grace, Welfare, Alturuism, Invitation, Nurture, & Evangelism!!!! How are our tithe debates reflecting these atributes of the love of Jesus!
            Grace, Welfare, Alturuism, Invitation, Nurture, & Evangelism!!!!

            That’s great, thank you. I’ve not resorted to cursing anyone on this blog on the subject of tithes/tithing. Perhaps those who have been busying themselves with such things need to look within themselves about what they are reflecting about their “love” for Jesus. :)

          • Freewillgiver says:

            Frank Sam Gwaine Jackie James and everyone thank you! On Sunday I crawled to my fellowship with an imperial attitude being hard on my kids a little, thinking of Gwaine and Nigeria. Who is my brother? What is his Character? You might need a break and I will break for a month myself from posting becase this will cause good suffering from myself. I will look at replies. I will be back October 7th or later..

            Yes I did and do pray for Gwaine but my prayers were more for me because tithe blogging can become one of my idols especially before football season. Anyways one of the scriptures mentioned in my fellowship was the who has bewitched you verse. Brother Gwaine can you show love for your freinds and enemies on this blog. Greater love has no man than this than to lay his life down for his friends..The good shepherd lays his life down for the sheep while the one who is hired runs at the presence of the wolf.

            Brother Gwaine you grapple, wordsmith, interact, nuetralize and empty yourself working on this blog for to help us or to stop this fellowship. Do you believe that this fellowship promotes Jesus and is a fellowship for Jesus. Do you believe that this blog is hurting church leadership or the poor by bastardising the word tithes. Yes we seek to leave the word out of the practice of Christians and we are very partial against the preacher royalties doctrines.

            Are tithes a Law? One powerful statement of Joel was that in Jesus there are no Para-church ministries… In my fellowship the majority speaker said we are a collection of leaders in Jesus and Deacons must first be tested then serve. Money tithe systems set up positions where leaders are less tested and serve without much severity. Royalty have more born into and label driven stationary jobs based mostly on words. Spreading the good news is more action leadership not titles. The last are first How is Tithing more humbling than Giving?

            Perseverance is to serve through the severe and the love of Jesus is a constant severe test. Thus Money Tithe systems are less loving. Money tithes in Christian fellowships automatically divide those who are entitled to receive between those who are most obligated to pay. The word giving and its derivatives are found much more often in the Bible. Giving is a principal I am sure but tithing… Well I do not know much about principals. Tithes always seem to be laws in the bible and they certainly come from subordinates to the entitled. Since we are all priest in Jesus why not just say giving or sharing.

            I love this blog because my fellowship in practice has been informed and influenced by this blog. Those who participate often must love it on some level. In my fellowship the worship leader asked that everyone come on time and opened up a debate.. I challenged my sister not to become organizational fearing any worship leader hierarchy to begin to evolve. On Russell Kelley’s blog there was mention of an executive breaking from the Assemblies of God my old denomination over tithes. He explained that the denominations tithes position has turned into a kind of fraternal order of “Pastors”(I call it professional speakers for hire)self preserving. Notice service and self preserving are the near opposite of perseverance. Love always perseveres. That is why I state often stuff about true Jesus leaders suffer the most. I am not brave but I desire to be.

            Using the word tithe is not a neutral decision can anyone argue that saying tithes is the
            same as saying giving? I think a good acronym for tithes in general is Tax, Imperialism, Tribute, Hire, Entitlement and Subordination. Establishments with strong leaders begin to have rules and Royalties are law givers. They hand kingdoms and church ministries to their children because there participation is partial. Where are tithes ever not partial in the Bible so tithes cannot be an impartial subject. Friends with so much passion and words written how can Money tithe neutrality be possible? Jesus the free will giver took the cross for us. We can suffer by answering to give others freedom in Christ with gentleness and respect.

            Detractors please correct us with graceful love and please have an answer for everyone

          • James says:

            Hi Freewillgiver, Gwaines motive is clear to try and encourage christians to twist scripture and to promote his beliefs on tithing so that christians will put themselves under the law again without him knowing how severe this false teaching can impact on those who practise it.

            Gwaine avoids answering if asked whether Tithing IS A LAW because he IS A LIAR, deceived because of pride, arrogance, stupidity he refuses to consider the view of christians on this site.
            He thinks Galatian 1:8-9 is from us not from God for those who bewitch christians.
            I say he is very foolish laughing and mocking at Apostle Pauls letters and warnnings

          • Gwaine says:

            @joel,

            The CURSE you are laughing at is not by me or any christian on earth today. The CURSE I mentioned to you is the CURSE by Apostle Paul that you are challenging its power. THe Holy Spirit inspired Paul to put that CURSE in the bible for people like you. Lets just see then what happens Mr Gwaine because its not me who put it in the bible.
            Just see if the CURSE has any power Mr Gwaine, I would not be so prideful and arrogant if I were you.

            Again, without being prideful or proud, I will laugh at your fake prophecy. Paul did not curse me or call me a witch – and James 3:8-11 show exactly what is wrong with your tongue. After you’ve run out of cursing, then crawl sanctimoniously into your worship house to “praise” God with the same tongue! It will only show what your slanders have made of you (Proverbs 10:18, NLT).

          • Sam says:

            To Witch gwaine, Post any scripture you want to and I will explain it you clearly.The reason why people do not read your comments is because they ARE FALSE AND MISLEADING,total RUBBISH AT BEST.

  28. jackie says:

    Gwiane, Are you a pastor ? Yes or No. Its simple if you want to be transparent. If you are encouraging christians to tithe (money) then you need to tell christians to perform sin offerings and all the other offerings in the Mosiac law. For your information tithing is not a princible its a law from God concerning the Israelites not you Gwaine unless you are a Levite or Moses,Arron. Deuteronomy 14:22-29 IS COLD HARD LAW,Malachi 3:9-10 IS COLD HARD LAW.Where do you get this junk from are you mentaly disturbed or are you brain damaged. Malachi 3:9-10 says “pay the tithe or be cursed”, its the same as keep the sabbath or you will be stoned to death. Where in there you do not understand. Its not a princible its the law given by God himself to Moses for the Jews. Gwaine thats where you are so confused with tithing you think its a princible not a specific law given exclusively to the Israelites.

    For crying out loud God did not command Moses to tell the Egyptians,Philistines, Romans,Mexicans, Americans or any other people to tithe(food) He gave the laws to Moses and instrcuted Moses to make sure the Israelites follow it very carefully or else they will suffer.Gwiane you were not included YOU CAME IN THROUGH CHRIST BLOOD ONLY NOT BEFORE. Its so frustrating to try and free a proud deceived person like you who think that you were included in the old covenant.Its like teaching a one year old how to read and write. Its so simple the blood of animals was used in the old covenant offerings and cleansing ceremonies, THE BLOOD OF JESUS CLEANSED AND REDEEMED US FOREVER. Blood of animals and THE BLOOD OF JESUS DONT MIX. SAME AS THE TWO COVENANTS.
    Do you get it now ? LAW and GRACE dont mix. Stop being so proud then you will get it.

    • Gwaine says:

      @jackie,

      I left you very simple questions to answer. If you cared for ‘truth’, I would have seen you answer them. You leave me just one choice as I said earlier: you’re just “someone desperate who’s bent on pushing false accusations for absolutely no reason”.

      No antitither will find tithes in the Bible discussed as a matter os anybody’s salvation. NONE. If you can find me just one verse that does so, please show me. All the hubris you guys wave about just to cover your excuses are hilarious, to say the least.

      When you come back, please attend the simple questions I left you earlier:

      1. Please quote me anywhere you saw me saying that people should ‘go back and practise the Mosiac law’. I want to see that quote, the date and the time.

      2. If you can’t find me saying so, then by all means kindly refrain from the mischief of your false allegations.

      3. I have consistently said and maintained that Paul quoted verses from the Law of Moses to teach New Testament doctrines (Deuteronomy 25:4 – see 1 Corinthians 9:9-10 and 1 Timothy 5:18). Is this a FACT, or do you DENY that?

      4. I have also said that the Christian is NOT called to legalism, but rather to see the ‘principles’ set forth in the OT verses quoted by the apostles in the NT. Do you DENY this as well?

      5. Did you find any line in any of my posts saying what you accuse me of – that people should ‘go back and practise the Mosiac law’? Where did I say that? Please quote me, and I will consider it.

      You can run and hide under other frantic excuses and ignore or evade them yet again. If the best you can do is throw lies and false accusations about, it tells volumes about your pretentious sanctimony.

  29. Sam says:

    Gwaine,please tell us are you a pastor? Are you lying and defrauding christians to pay for your bills,holidays, cars or house ?by teaching and encouraging them to give them 10% of their income. Do you like this law?

    ” Thou shall not covet 10% of your neighbours income US dollars, Euros,Pounds, Yen ”
    Are you that desperate for money you try to justify lying and fraud ?

    • Gwaine says:

      Sam,

      I am not a pastor; nor do I receive/ask anybody for anything. I certainly have not coveted your silver or gold nor have I defrauded you and your ilk in any way. If you have read any line in any of my posts where I asked for a dime from anyone – even you – please quote it directly! My point still remains – please scroll up and read what I have consistently said about legalism; and if you disagree, save your derisions and focus more on those issues.

      You guys are just a laugh altogether! You cry and hoot, sling mud and commend your consciences with calumny, false accusations which you cannot prove directly in ANY quotes in my posts, and then recycle blatant lies up and down this page. Shocking. Yet, NOT ONE of you has discussed anything in the points I raised. When you can’t find anything sensible to say, you resort to insults, mob jingoism and all sorts of ad hominem fallacies – the tools of desperate fellows.

      It’s quite shameful to see the duplicity coming from some of you guys. But if that’s just what this blog is about, little wonder.

      • joel says:

        Gwaine, What lies are you talking about ? Anyone who promote or support tithing (money) is a liar and a fraud. That is what I am saying so if you support paying tithes to churches now ,that means you are a liar and a cheat fleecing christians 10% of their income.

        • Gwaine says:

          joel:Gwaine, What lies are you talking about ?

          I’ve been very specific to point out some of the lies being recycled by antitithing legalists. Please scroll up and see. I don’t make vacant assertions that I can’t quote or prove in anybody’s comment – and those that I’ve pointed out are still up there for your review, if you will consider them.

          joel: Anyone who promote or support tithing (money) is a liar and a fraud.

          There are many godly men whose ministries have blessed believers through the ages – these men have not lied to you nor have they defrauded you. Some of these godly men who have encouraged Christians to tithe are well recognized by antitithers. If I point out just a few examples of such men, can you stand before Christ to accuse them of being ‘liars’ and ‘frauds’?

          The problem with your reaction is that you cannot see how dangerous your generalizations are! Just because you happen to disagree with those who are inclined to tithe, you conclude that ANYONE who supports it must by default be a liar and a fraud. False accusation is the tool of the devil (Revelation 12:10); and by accusing people anyhow without first finding out for sure if they have defrauded you, is to employ the trade tools of the devil. Did you never read that ‘slandering others makes you a fool’? (Proverbs 10:18, NLT).

          joel: That is what I am saying so if you support paying tithes to churches now ,that means you are a liar and a cheat fleecing christians 10% of their income.

          Ah, another jingoism at work! Since I have not defrauded you in anyway, please keep your slanders and false accusations to yourself. If you take time to read my views, you won’t be hasty to be accusative – which probably explains why NONE of you guys have found the quote in my posts for what you accuse me of!

          • joel says:

            Gwaine, Your comments shows that you are trying so hard to impress christians that you know what you are talking about . You are debating with some very wealthy christians here, so when they talk about money or wealth try humility and listen because the so call “principle” and “tithe to be blessed” that most pastors are selling and manipulating christians to do is simply a way to defraud people of their money.Many christians GIVE TO GET but I know you do not practise that because your name is Gwaine and maybe you give your money out of “princible”

            Its like saying I love my wife and my children out of “princible”. That is so funny I need to stop and try to digest that ..lol…

            People eat food because of “principle”.. lol..

            Its like a guy telling his wife I am only “making love to you out of principle”..lol… PLEASE PRAY VERY HARD FOR BRAIN ACTIVITY!!!! ..lol..

            Gwaine, you are up there with the likes of EINSTEIN, , PROFESSORS, ROCKET SCIENTIST and FOREST GUMP …lol..

            From now on your nick name is professor Gwaine F Gump..lol..What do you think professor ?or Dr Gwaine Gump ..lol..

            I asked you before not to try to hard it will make you look stupid and foolish

          • Sam says:

            Thats funny, Dr Gwaine Gump my friend just bought a BMW X5 because of “principle” and he only drives it on the weekends. I hate goin on holidays overseas but I only do it for the “principle”.

            What a joke, Giving because of principles is the same as saying “BLESS YOU ” because it sounds spiritual Dr Gwaine Gump.Please relax and dont try too hard to be someone your not.

          • jackie says:

            Mr Gwaine Gump, The tithe according to scriptures says “food grown within the gates of Israel” not Egypt,Syria,United States or Europe. Read Nehemiah 10:37-38, Deuteronomy 14:22-29, Malachi 3:10,Mathew 23:23 and more.

            If we go to The Supreme or High Court with this overwhelming evidence they will charge many pastors and teachers and people like yourself with “FRAUD”
            They will throw you in jail for FRAUD and for SOLICITING MONEY BY THE DECEPTION.

  30. Tony Isaac says:

    Gwaine, I have looked through your previous comments trying to understand your line of argument and I must admit that it was quite an arduous task. Correct me if I am wrong, you view is anybody should be allowed to give in anyway they choose be it through tithing or via any other media. I still fail to see why you are arguing because that is exactly what we have been saying all along – give what you want to give be it 1%, 5%, 10% or a 100%. No one should legislate how people give!

    You have promptly drawn your own conclusions without bothering to properly read what we have all written because you believe that we are being legalistic in speaking against the tithes. I did mention earlier and you vehemently refuted it – “we are all singing from the same song sheet”.

    There is something you should understand, no anti-tither has anything to gain from people not tithing. If anything, in order to maintain a steady revenue stream an anti-tithing pastor would seem to lose out on the short run if he doesn’t enforce the tithe.

    You have supported your “partisan” stance by misquoting 2 scriptures
    Further, you know I’m not one to argue by demagoguery or jingoism. I have consistently maintained two points on why I don’t take sides with either this or that group or label –
    (a) “But if you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law” – James 2:1 & 9, NLT.
    (b) “Showing partiality is never good” – Proverbs 28:21, NLT.

    I took the liberty of quoting the first 9 verses of James 2 to get the context

    1 My dear brothers and sisters, how can you claim to have faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ if you favor some people over others? 2 For example, suppose someone comes into your meeting dressed in fancy clothes and expensive jewelry, and another comes in who is poor and dressed in dirty clothes. 3 If you give special attention and a good seat to the rich person, but you say to the poor one, “You can stand over there, or else sit on the floor”—well, 4 doesn’t this discrimination show that your judgments are guided by evil motives? 5 Listen to me, dear brothers and sisters. Hasn’t God chosen the poor in this world to be rich in faith? Aren’t they the ones who will inherit the Kingdom he promised to those who love him? 6 But you dishonor the poor! Isn’t it the rich who oppress you and drag you into court? 7 Aren’t they the ones who slander Jesus Christ, whose noble name you bear? 8 Yes indeed, it is good when you obey the royal law as found in the Scriptures: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 9 But if you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law.

    It is clear that verse never referred favouring a biblical view point over another but showing partiality for one person over another because of their status. Please read scriptures in context. Besides, I hardly see how one can label standing up for what the Bible says as showing favouritism or partiality as the case may be. When we had a group in the Book of Acts that came to compel the Gentiles to get circumcised, what was Paul’s reaction?
    I’m sorry, but I’m not one to take sides with any group or other to engage in this ugly divide in the Body of Christ. or did he decide not speak so as not to be labelled as biased? Not at all! Here was his response

    . 1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Gal 5

    The last thing I am going to touch on is this so called “10%” business. The tithe was never 10% of anything! It was simply “A TENTH”. Let’s look at some scriptures that reference the tithe

    30 ” ‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD. 31 If a man redeems any of his tithe, he must add a fifth of the value to it. 32 The entire tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the LORD. 33 He must not pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. If he does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy and cannot be redeemed.’ ” Lev 27
    And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand.” Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything. Genesis 14:20

    It never referenced the tithe as 10% but as A TENTH. I know you might want to label this as “semantics” or as a “literal interpretation” of scriptures but before you bring your normal tirade of big words, hear me out. What is the difference between 10% and A TENTH? In determining the tithe in scripture, the tither had to group his items into tens and separate every tenth one as the tithe! If for instance he had sheep, he will count all of his sheep and separate every tenth one as the tithe. If in the event he had only 9 sheep, he could not tithe because there was no tenth. Hence tithing could only be done on agricultural produce, livestock, objects like clothings, weapons etc. but never on money because it was practically impossible to determine A TENTH of currency. And this brings us back to what we have been saying against the tithe all along – Those that insist on the tithe and label it 10% of currency are speaking outside of scriptures!

    If you ask me though, I think you argue because you love to and want to show some sort of superiority over others and not because you intend to build, exhort or encourage. Hence you try to find faults with both sides, not very Christian if you ask me.

    • Gwaine says:

      Tony,

      Thanks for taking time to carefully grasp the gist of my posts. I apologise for any inconvenience, and it would have been even more arduous to repeat myself on the same things.

      Tony: Correct me if I am wrong, you view is anybody should be allowed to give in anyway they choose be it through tithing or via any other media.

      Yes. Spot on.

      Tony: I still fail to see why you are arguing because that is exactly what we have been saying all along – give what you want to give be it 1%, 5%, 10% or a 100%. No one should legislate how people give!

      Have antitithers actually been saying what you read in my posts? And you’re not surprised that many of them (even in this blog) are still so opposed to the same thing? That’s peculiar.

      How many antitithers do you read talking about the ‘principle’ of tithing and encouraging it? Why do they accuse ANYONE who talks about tithing to be a liar and a fraud’? How many antitithers do you read saying that it is okay for Christians to express their giving “through tithing or via any other media“? How many? More to the point, how many antitithers do you read saying it is macabre to try to make every Christian stop tithing altogether? Is it not true that the message of the majority of anitithers (even on this blog) is that Christians should stop tithing? I may not be aware, so please share with me on how many antitithers have been saying “exactly” the same things you read in my posts – and yet, these smae folks would readily resort to insults and ad hominem fallacy at the same time?

      Have you wondered what these same antitithers would say directly to you if you were to have been saying exactly what I’ve been saying?

      No, antitithers (at least, many of them on this blog) do not have a clue what a ‘principle’ is, nor are they saying exactly what you read in my posts – we have not been ‘singing from the same song sheet’, Tony.

      Tony: There is something you should understand, no anti-tither has anything to gain from people not tithing. If anything, in order to maintain a steady revenue stream an anti-tithing pastor would seem to lose out on the short run if he doesn’t enforce the tithe.

      Okay, at the risk of probably not understanding you there, let me say as a side note that I would rather stand opposed to anyone who “enforces” tithing or anything else. (I don’t think that’s what you meant, though). My point is: nobody should “enforce” anything on anybody – whether tithing, freewill offering, or giving! Nothing should be imposed, mandated or enforeced in any way or form.

      Tony: You have supported your “partisan” stance by misquoting 2 scriptures.

      Nope, let’s say you rather did not show an understanding of those verses – which by extension makes me wonder if you understood what’s meant by a ‘principle’. Again why you would be ‘singing from the same sheet’ and yet asserting I’m being ‘partisan’ makes me wonder if you’re tacitly suggesting you also are partisan! To be ‘partisan’ is to take sides; Tony, you of all people should know I’ve consistently maintained that I’m not ever going to take sides with any camp on this divide! Please understand the meaning of the words you use – you don’t want people wondering if you’re agreeing with me and yet disagreeing with yourself at the same time!

      Tony: I took the liberty of quoting the first 9 verses of James 2 to get the context. . .
      [snip]
      It is clear that verse never referred favouring a biblical view point over another but showing partiality for one person over another because of their status. Please read scriptures in context.

      I noted you simply didn’t understand those verses in the context in which I used them? First, those verses say precisely what they do – “showing partiality is NEVER good” (Prov. 28:21, NLT). Please tell me, when is it ‘good’ to show partiality, Tony? Please just answer that question. You want me to show partiality – towards which group?

      I agree with you that context is important; but how many people know how to use ‘context’? If you’re doing exegesis of the Bible, you could use ‘context’ to formulate either a rigid view or otherwise fall into the error of eisegesis. No big words there – just use your dictionary.

      It is in this regard that I don’t have a problem with people quoting verses that highlight a general truth. For example, Paul quotes Deut. 25:4 to teach NT giving – but if you want to argue “context”, you will find that Deut. 25:4 has absolutely NOTHING to do with any type of ‘giving’ in context (read the verses before and after Deut. 25:4). A general truth does not have to be rigid.

      In the same vein, the general truth of Prov. 28:21 stands out: “Showing partiality is never good”. If you are convinced it is ‘good’ to be partial or partisan, please show me in what “context” you would have expected me to do so; and which cam between pro-tithers and/or antitithers you would have expected me to have been partial to.

    • Gwaine says:

      @Tony,

      Tony: Besides, I hardly see how one can label standing up for what the Bible says as showing favouritism or partiality as the case may be.

      No, you hardly see how that could be – but after saying we’re both singing from the same sheet, you yet turn round and label me ‘partisan’. That’s just funny! If you were saying “exactly” the same thing as I have been, would you also be labelling yourself ‘partisan’?

      Tony: When we had a group in the Book of Acts that came to compel the Gentiles to get circumcised, what was Paul’s reaction?

      Paul did NOT try to be ‘partisan’ or ‘partial’ – which is one thing I would ask you consider. The subject was very important, as it rested on salvation (see Acts 15:1 – ‘Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved‘, KJV). The question was: should the Gentiles be circumcised in order to be saved? The answer both from Paul and other apostles is a resounding ‘No’.

      But does ‘tithing’ have anything to do with salvation in the Bible? I have said that tithing is NOT a salvific matter (it has nothing to do with salvation). This is why when some antitithers go about to connect tithing with circumcision, redemption, or ‘the blood of Jesus once for all’, that is the most illiterate argument anyone can make! There was never any argument at anytime in the Bible about people tithing or not tithing in order ‘to be saved’ – Scripture never presents tithes as connected with anyone’s salvation.

      Yet, even Paul on circumcision did not push his doctrine so rigidly. In 1 Cor. 7:19, he said plainly: “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.” If Paul was trying to force everyone from being circumcised, why then did he afterwards circumcise Timothy (Acts 16:3) right after the conference at Jerusalem against circumcision in Acts 15??

      Paul did not try to “enfore” either circumcision or uncircumcision. He said so himself several times (1 Cor. 7:19; Gal. 5:6 & 6:15). That was why he could circumcise Timothy even after the conference in Acts 15 without violating NT teaching on salvation by grace. May I reiterate: tithing does not save or damn anybody, and anyone who’s going about to connect tithing with salvation in anyway is spouting the dumbest argument ever!

      However, when it comes to matters that do not determine anyone’s salvation (such as celebrating a day or eating certain foods), what was Paul’s reaction? Please carefully consider Romans 14 –

      Rom. 14:3, NLT – ‘Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don’t. And those who don’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them.’

      Rom. 14:5, NLT – ‘One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind’

      In other words, Paul was not taking a partisan or rigid stance in either of these issues – he did not favour one group of Christians over another on matters such as a special day or food or whatnots. Yet, without taking sides with any group at all, Paul indeed took a firm stance against people trying to push their own rigidity and legalism on others – whether they favoured special days or not, or whether some ate certain foods that others could not eat!

      Why is this so? Simple: in matters that do not determine one’s salvation, we don’t need all the arguments back and forth. Each one should be convinced in his/her mind. For some to try to force or cajole or manipulate others to altogether stop tithing is as macabre as forcing people to tithe! I’m not being partisan in refusing to take sides with one camp over another. My point has consistently been that believers can choose to express their giving in any way they are persuaded to do so – whether through a tithing principle or any other ways. Tithing is not at par with circumcision and has nothing to do with salvation.

    • Gwaine says:

      @Tony,

      Tony: The last thing I am going to touch on is this so called “10%” business. The tithe was never 10% of anything! It was simply “A TENTH”.

      Thank you, Tony. You can say that to ‘steward’ (Jeff) who reminds us that “a synonym for ‘10%’ is the word ‘tithe’“. The point is that some antitithers see ‘tithe’ as “10%” (hence the synonym); others do not, and they go to great lengths to argue on semantics.

      Tony: It never referenced the tithe as 10% but as A TENTH. I know you might want to label this as “semantics” or as a “literal interpretation” of scriptures but before you bring your normal tirade of big words, hear me out. What is the difference between 10% and A TENTH? In determining the tithe in scripture, the tither had to group his items into tens and separate every tenth one as the tithe! If for instance he had sheep, he will count all of his sheep and separate every tenth one as the tithe. If in the event he had only 9 sheep, he could not tithe because there was no tenth.

      Phew! I just want you to see the problem you’re creating for yourself here. First, there’s just nothing between a tenth, the tithe, and “10%” – basically, they point to just about the same thing (unless you just wanted to be very cumbersome between words, and I hope not).

      If you want to count ‘tithe’ only as a ‘tenth’ but NOT “10%”, no problems – how do you then determine a tenth of ‘grain’? Let’s think along what you’re arguing and say just about the same thing for tithe as you made for sheep –

      ‘If for instance he had sheep grain, he will count all of his sheep grain and separate every tenth one as the tithe. If in the event he had only 9 sheep grain, he could not tithe because there was no tenth’

      Do you see it just does not square? Does one have to count every ‘tenth’ grain in order to be able to ‘tithe’, Tony? Do you see why these exactitudes that people argue is just not helping to make good sense.

      For sheep, one may count every ‘tenth’ animal; yes. But to become bogged down with that idea would present a problem with determining the ‘tenth’ grain. More so, how did Abraham determine the tithe he gave to Melchizedek – by counting the ‘tenth’ of each individual item?

      A tithe is simply understood as just that – and could be expressed either in ordinal terms (tenth, etc.) or in cardinal terms (10, 20, etc). As regards the ‘%’, it is still the same – a tenth is simply 10% in terms of proportions.

      Tony: Hence tithing could only be done on agricultural produce, livestock, objects like clothings, weapons etc. but never on money because it was practically impossible to determine A TENTH of currency.

      I don’t think this makes any sense when you can afford to be so rigid. First, some argue that tithing could “only” be done on agricultural produce – they never include any of those others things you listed. Thankfully, you did list them – but what then is the ‘principle’ if we’ve been singing from the same sheet? The point is that these things could be converted to money – their equivalents are NOT condemned in Scripture (Deut. 14:25-26).

      When Paul quoted Deut. 25:4 in the NT, was he asking for “ox” and “grain” and “crop” in literal terms? Was he so rigid as to insist that such a verse never was intended for anything other than ‘agricultural produce’? Where do you find ‘money’ in Deut. 25:4 before Paul quoted it to teach NT doctrine on giving?

      Why do many people only see the letter of the OT and never its ‘principle’? I have been asking this same question for eons as to why no antitither has ever explained why Deuteronomy 25:4 was quoted by Paul when that verse says absolutely NOTHING about money or currency but rather about “ox” and “grain” and “crop”?!? People who complain for ages about tithes being “only” agricultural produce should definitely have huge problems with Paul’s quoting Deut. 25:4 – it is only hypocritical to be rigid about tithes on ‘farm produce’ but then excuse Deut. 25:4 that says nothing about ‘money’ when Paul quoted that verse in his epistles.

      Tony: And this brings us back to what we have been saying against the tithe all along – Those that insist on the tithe and label it 10% of currency are speaking outside of scriptures!

      And yet you are the same person who has been saying that you were ‘singing from the same sheet’? This is the kind of fallacy that makes me … well, laugh! Are you not the same person who started out saying that you are saying “exactly” the same thing as I have been saying, that ‘anybody should be allowed to give in anyway they choose be it through tithing or via any other media’? If you are saying the same thing, then from where do you get your conviction to agree on “exactly” that same thing (“through tithing”)?

      I’m not one to “insist” on anything – which is why I have always maintained that people should be allowed to express their giving as they are persuaded. The one who does so through tithing should not be condemned just because antitithers “insist” on some legalistic arguments here and there. On the other hand, the one who desires to express his giving in some other way should not think himself/herself as more “scriptural” than others. To ‘insist’ on one over the other is simply macabre – and that is why I don’t take sides with extremes.

      : If you ask me though, I think you argue because you love to and want to show some sort of superiority over others and not because you intend to build, exhort or encourage. Hence you try to find faults with both sides, not very Christian if you ask me.

      No, and please Tony stop playing this very childish game. :) Were you being ‘very Christian’ in lashing out that I was ‘not born again’ because I was denouncing the legalism and rigidity of many who “insist” that it is wrong for Christians to ‘tithe’? Were you being ‘very Christian’ for trying to justify such a reaction, even where there was absolutely no need for you to have done so?

      In the past, I’ve denounced this ugly divide between anti-tithers and pro-tithers and noted that such extremes are unnecessary. I also made clear somewhere that I’d rather foster ‘healing’ and ‘balance’ in these discussions –

      My aim is not to deepen the divide or applaud the scars suffered by our brethren on either side; rather, I’d be looking for ways to promote healing of wounds by engaging in a balanced understanding of whatever is of interest to everyone on this subject.
      – see my reply to Marty (02/16/2009 at 9:02 pm), previous page.

      So, Tony, what you accuse me of is simply not true. If you have been singing from the same sheet as you said from the first paragraph (‘anybody should be allowed to give in anyway they choose be it through tithing or via any other media’), then I apologise if I didn’t see that – why then have you been disagreeing with me and labelling me all sorts?

      Bottomline: I’m not partisan, I won’t join any bandwagon (pro- or anti-) on tithing; to enfore tithing is as macabre to try to make everyone stop tithing altogether. Tithing has absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation, so those propagandists connecting it with ‘circumcision’ and ‘the blood of Jesus’ are waving their classic eisegesis. Do what you feel led in your heart to give, even if it is a tithe or by any other means – no need to argue long and hard against tithing and yet come back claiming to be singing from the same sheet!

      Regards.

      • Tony Isaac says:

        All these sentences, for me? Don’t you have like a job you go to or any other hobbies you engage in?

        I still maintain what I said the last time, your arguing is rather aimless and quite pointless because we still saying the same thing – give as you are able!

        You have spoken against a so-called “rigid” approach to scripture, why don’t you take your own advice for a change. Wouldn’t those who insist on “10%” as the standard of giving be “rigid”? What happens to those who cannot afford to give up to “10%” but are still willingly to give the little they have, have they not been alienated by this “10%” command? That should tug at the heart strings of someone who is against partiality or shouldn’t it?

        I noted you simply didn’t understand those verses in the context in which I used them?

        Have you now replaced the Holy Spirit as the authority in scripture that you can give any verse of scripture any meaning or context that pleases you? Gwaine!

        You have been going on and on about Deu 25: 4 and herein lies the danger of not reading verses in the context in which they are used. For someone that tries to come across as very intelligent and quite studious you can be alarmingly obtuse at times. What is a muzzle? A leather or wire restraint that fits over an animal’s snout and prevents it from eating or biting. Would common sense not dictate that it would be wickedness to prevent the ox from tasting the fruits of its labour? It has been grinding the corn, why not allow it to taste some of it’s hard work? That was the analogy Paul was trying to draw and he was not talking of money solely. He was simply highlighting that there should be a reward for those who labour in the word just as the ox receives it’s reward for treading the corn by eating from it. But as usual, you take a verse of scripture, disregard the context in which it was used and give your own meaning to it. Here is 1 Cor 9: 1 – 11

        1AM I not an apostle (a special messenger)? Am I not free (unrestrained and exempt from any obligation)? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you [yourselves] not [the product and proof of] my workmanship in the Lord?
        2Even if I am not considered an apostle (a special messenger) by others, at least I am one to you; for you are the seal (the certificate, the living evidence) of my apostleship in the Lord [confirming and authenticating it].
        3This is my [real ground of] defense (my vindication of myself) to those who would put me on trial and cross-examine me.
        4Have we not the right to our food and drink [at the expense of the churches]?
        5Have we not the right also to take along with us a Christian sister as wife, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas (Peter)?
        6Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from doing manual labor for a livelihood [in order to go about the work of the ministry]?
        7[Consider this:] What soldier at any time serves at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat any of the fruit of it? Who tends a flock and does not partake of the milk of the flock?
        8Do I say this only on human authority and as a man reasons? Does not the Law endorse the same principle?
        9For in the Law of Moses it is written, You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the corn. Is it [only] for oxen that God cares?(A)
        10Or does He speak certainly and entirely for our sakes? [Assuredly] it is written for our sakes, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher ought to thresh in expectation of partaking of the harvest.
        11If we have sown [the seed of] spiritual good among you, [is it too] much if we reap from your material benefits?

        1 Tim 5 is also like it.

        17Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
        18For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

        I simply fail to see how this builds a case for tithing money. Anyways, this going backwards and forwards is already wearing me out. I suggest you find something more productive to do with your time than trying to twist scriptures to further your own personal agenda!

        • Gwaine says:

          @Tony,
          Are you for real? What’s all this agreeing with me, we’re saying the same thing, and at the same time casting sly invectives? What kind of sureptitious approach are you advancing?

          I do have a job, and I’m a very busy person. I so happen to type very fast and deal with issues without wasting time – so if I’m able to handle more things in a day, is that really a problem, Tony?

          : You have spoken against a so-called “rigid” approach to scripture, why don’t you take your own advice for a change. Wouldn’t those who insist on “10%” as the standard of giving be “rigid”? What happens to those who cannot afford to give up to “10%” but are still willingly to give the little they have, have they not been alienated by this “10%” command? That should tug at the heart strings of someone who is against partiality or shouldn’t it?

          Dude, did I ever “INSIST” on anything? If I did, please QUOTE ME directly! If I insisted, have you been singing from the same sheet with me? Does the gist of my posts sound like “INSISTING” on any percentage at all? Please try to not read things into my posts – or otherwise QUOTE ME directly for what you’re alleging.

          Tony: Have you now replaced the Holy Spirit as the authority in scripture that you can give any verse of scripture any meaning or context that pleases you? Gwaine!

          Did I claim anywhere to have ‘replaced’ the authority of the Holy Spirit? Did you try to read the contexts in which I quoted those verses? What is wrong in quoting Proverbs 28:21 that ‘showing partiality is NEVER good’? If you have a problem with that verse in context, please answer this question: when is it ever ‘good’ to be partial, Tony? I asked you that question earlier, you ducked it and I don’t see you even attempting it – did you?

          Tony: You have been going on and on about Deu 25: 4 and herein lies the danger of not reading verses in the context in which they are used. For someone that tries to come across as very intelligent and quite studious you can be alarmingly obtuse at times. What is a muzzle? A leather or wire restraint that fits over an animal’s snout and prevents it from eating or biting. Would common sense not dictate that it would be wickedness to prevent the ox from tasting the fruits of its labour? It has been grinding the corn, why not allow it to taste some of it’s hard work? That was the analogy Paul was trying to draw and he was not talking of money solely. He was simply highlighting that there should be a reward for those who labour in the word just as the ox receives it’s reward for treading the corn by eating from it. But as usual, you take a verse of scripture, disregard the context in which it was used and give your own meaning to it. Here is 1 Cor 9: 1 – 11

          Even in your best attempts on explicating the Deut. 25:4, you still failed to see reason! I have said –
          (a) Paul quoted a verse from the the Law of Moses (Deut. 25:4) to teach NT doctrine on giving (1 Cor. 9:9-10 and 1 Tim. 5:18)
          (b) Paul quoted that verse (Deut. 25:4) in “principle” and not in a legalistic manner!
          (c) as such, he was not looking for “ox” and “grain” or “crop” in the literal sense;
          (d) even though that OT verse has absolutely NOTHING to do with any type of giving or ‘money’ or ‘currency’ or ‘finance’, he still used it to speak to NT Christians on giving
          (e) in just the same way, those who argue long and hard about “farm produce” for tithes would be arguing their literalism and legalism if they cannot see Paul’s “principle” in that example.

          You just went on and on as if you had anything wrong with that and trailed off talking about a context you least have grasped! If you have anything there to argue for a literal “ox” or “grain” or “crop” in Deut. 25:4, do so – if not, what then is all the talk about “context” in that verse that says absolutely NOTHING about any type of giving?

          I noted earlier that if someone does not understand how to use ‘context’, they would fall into the error of either eisegesis or legalism – as so happens with the antitithing argument of tithe MUST be ‘farm produce’. That being so, what is Deut. 25:4 doing in Paul’s epistle when it says absolutely nothing about money or currencies? The question I asked was simple: for those who love to be legalistic, why did Paul quote that verse from the Law of Moses to teach NT giving?

          Tony: I simply fail to see how this builds a case for tithing money. Anyways, this going backwards and forwards is already wearing me out. I suggest you find something more productive to do with your time than trying to twist scriptures to further your own personal agenda!

          Thanks once again for the slur! You simply fail to make any sense, see to fail why Deut. 25:4 has nothing to do with money or financial giving, and yet Paul used it precisely for that! Perhaps when you have the time, make a little more thoughtful consideration to that question instead of wearing yourself out and slurring me with the fallacy of ‘singing from the same sheet’.

          Cheers.

          • Tony Isaac says:

            I couldn’t help laughing at your retort! Maybe we are not singing from the same song sheet after all, yours could have been a misprint with some texts missing.

            Anyways, I have probably “worn” meself out with this pointless banter and I am moving on to more edifying and productive pursuits. Please take good care of yourself and God bless.

      • jackie says:

        Dr Gwaine Gump, reading your comments about Deuteronomy 14:25-26 for example reveals someone that is so confused and deceived that I find you disgusting and annoying. How can you try and say that Gods intention for recording this particular chapter and verse in Deuteronomy was to give the reader the message that its the principle that is more the focus, not the Law about tithing that God wanted Moses to relate to the Israelites ?

        That is why I refuse to even go into deeper discussion of your comments because its just plain foolishness and unbiblical junk by some prideful deceived individual like you, DR GWAINE GUMP..lol…

        • Gwaine says:

          Finally, you could not hide your hatred, could you? Out of the abundance of your heart, your mouth is spewing your surreptitious hate (“disgusting and annoying” – very nice, thanks again!).

          You’re just forcing yourself to display the true antitithing legalism of your spirit. It happens with many of your type, that is why you only see the the letter of the Law, and then go maddening wild and irate when anyone points out that the NT apostles also quoted from the Law of Moses without seeking a legalistic applicationFACT that none of your brigade can deny! Romans 3:31, ESV.

          This is why you will forever complain, throw false accusations around that you can’t prove, and then beggar intelligence with sly invectives where you cannot point out zilch in the things you hoot against! What a laugh! You just can’t see reason, so little wonder your hate easily leaks through. Please keep it up.

          • jackie says:

            Dr Gwaine Gump, you are calling christians who do not agree with your interpretation of scripture hateful and evil. So anyone who can see through your web of deception and lies you call them evil or workers for the devil ?

            Please, could you tell us which church or denomination you belong to ?
            And could you expand on your personal beliefs about tithing if its a law given to Moses by God or not,please answer YES or NO

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