Many have asked me, “why tithing”? Of all the things to study and debate, why have I chosen tithing? Right off the bat, I don’t really know why the topic of tithing fires me up so much, so I found 5 good reasons to get fired up about the tithing debate.
The Love of Money is the Root of all Kinds of Evil
I almost said that money is the root of evil. I think I write that because my mind is always on autopilot. Money is not the root of all kinds of evil. The LOVE of money is. Sure, tithing is a good discipline to rid greed from those who are giving, but what about those who are receiving? There are many out there who are extorting God’s word for the gain of money. Many of you think about televangelists, but that’s just a few on TV. There are many more who desire more and more money to build more and more of their kingdom. Sure, many of them think that God gave them this vision to do this or that. Tithing allows them to build their own dreams and mandate others to pay for it. It’s not necessarily that they love money; they love what money can build.
Tithing in the New Testament Church is Against Scripture
Plain and simple and probably the most important factor that inspires my quest against tithing. I’m not going to spout out any scripture to prove tithing wrong. I’ve done plenty of that already in the past. I believe with all of my heart, that tithing is unbiblical. I do not have an ounce of doubt in my heart or mind about it. I wish i could take what i’ve learned and play it in a movie, or write it in a book. Words and pictures will not do justice to what the Spirit of God has enlightened in my heart.
Tithing Extorts the Poor and Excuses the Rich
I’ve seen churches investigate many members to figure out if they are tithing. If a rich man has been tithing, he is let go and forget about. But if a poor man is not tithing, and needs help or assistance in paying his bills, the church will first investigate his finances to see if he tithed. If he did, then they will check his spending records and make sure he isn’t spending too much on other things.
The church will try everything to get out of helping this poor man. They will show how he can spend less here and there, and yet still ask him to pay his tithes. They think no one has an excuse not to tithe. They don’t even realize that in scripture it was the poor who received tithes. What about the rich, why pick on them? They paid their tithes, didn’t they? Is a tithe really what God expects of them or is that what WE are expecting from them? Tithing is unjust and unfair.
Jesus Talked about Money More than any other Subject
Obviously, nothing has more of a hold on people than money does. If Jesus talked about it so much then it must be crucial. I’m not a financial guru. I flunked accounting in high school. But I do know that the flow of money going in and out of the church should be a much-discussed topic. Disagree? Don’t mark my words, look at Jesus’. He talked about it more than sin, heaven, and hell.
Giving statistics stated that religious organizations brought in 103 billion dollars last year. We have done very little with the 103 billion dollars and we complain that we could do more if only more tithed. It is calculated that we spend 85% of what we take in on ourselves. As a matter of fact, only 3% goes towards ministering to the needs of the unsaved. No wonder the world thinks the Church is greedy. It’s not because we are constantly asking for money. it’s because we keep it all to ourselves.
This is besides the point. How the Church receives its funds is important. If tithing is in place then people are not free to give to other places that God is leading them to give. Instead, people are handcuffed to an organization that spends more and more on themselves.
Tithing Challenges me to Study God’s Word
I will admit, I’m not the encourager or exalter in the group. I like to dissect things with my mind and find solutions to fix the problems. If i see a problem I will speak up. I won’t if everything is going right, I just expect it to. I’m very opinionated, and debates really fuel my fire. I love them. Am I contentious? Sometimes, yes. I try to work on that. I don’t like to pick fights for no reason. But I love a good challenge. There is nothing biblically wrong with wanting to debate God’s word. Your motives must be pure, and you have to be extra careful about how your attitude shows Christ.
Everyone has their methods to help them get fired about God. For some, it’s to look for those who need emotional help. Others, it’s to look for those who need some teaching. It’s all different for all of us. We are all wired different ways. I’d like to say that the greatest Christian is the one who is most balanced, but more than likely that Christian doesn’t fit in many places. We are different members with different things that drive our motivation. If we are the hands, then doing things with our hands motivates us. If we are the head, then using our thinking or leadership skills motivates us. We are all driven by different things.
So many People are Believing the Wrong Thing
This just hurts to see the number of people who are believing the wrong thing. I’m on a quest to help as many as I can to see the truth in God’s Word. If there was no one to convince, then I probably wouldn’t get into tithing. But it’s a challenge for me, and there are many who need help and do not know the truth. At one time I didn’t know the truth. You can read about it in my tithing testimony. It is great to hear testimonies from those who have been freed by the teachings of God’s word about tithing. I do not want to diminish the fact of giving sacrificially, but at the same time, people are locked up in chains and need to be freed from the tithing mandate first in order to truly understand sacrificial giving.
Brother Martin says
Malachi 3: 8-12
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.Ye are cursed with a curse for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.And all nations shall call you blessed for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.
Sam says
Hi Martin, can I ask you a question ? How did you receive Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour ? Did you receive him by keeping the sabbath,tithing, cicumcision, cleansing ceremonies etc…. or did you receive Christ by faith ? The bible teaches that a man shall live by faith. All the blessings and promises God promised Abraham is ours if we belive it. NOt earned but through your faith because if its earned then everyone has the right to boast.
All you did was to belive Christ died for you. No one can keep the laws that was given to the Jews, that includes tithing. You break one you break the whole lot.
Jared Brian says
Galatians 3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
2 Corinthians 3:17
the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Elder Joshua J. Holdstock says
Brother Steward,
I struggle to understand how it can be justified by so many that ‘The Law’ is no longer relevent and and in full force. You say Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law but so simply, so plainly, and with so much forsight into our day when he knew people would try to claim there was no law he exclaimed, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, till all be fulfilled.” Matt. 5: 17-18 Last I checked the earth had not passed. One needs not go on a scriptural rollercoaster from verse to verse to verse to twist those simple words into something they are not.
You need to understand spiritual progression and how the law aids that progression. Unfortunately I’m being called away for an emergent surgery. I will try to find time to readdress you later.
Jared Brian says
Josh,
If you have a bucket, and the bucket is full, that means it’s purpose is fulfilled. It can no longer be taken to the well to gather more water. A full bucket doesn’t mean that it is dead or meaningless; it just means we cannot use it to gather our water, because somebody else already filled it up with their water.
If the law’s purpose is fulfilled, that means we must choose a different bucket.
– jared
Minister Fred Hatchett says
When it comes to tithing, it matters not all the negative or positive “experiences” it has brought about. Experience does not determine the truth of scripture. Someone who gives 10% of their money is not tithing. They are giving 10% of their finances. If someone gives 15%, are they tithing and giving 5%? No! They are giving 15%. The levites, who received the tithes from the people, were kind of the middle-men. They gave a tenth of the tithe to the priests. The Levitical Priesthood is gone, therefore there is no one to give our tithes to.
Elder Joshua J. Holdstock says
The Levitical Priesthood is not gone. God has given that Priesthood to many many men here in our day. Brother Hatchett, it is important to understand that God does not change with the winds and tides of man. What he did then, he does now, if it were not so then you would be saying that we are less important than those who came before us and that is simply not so! ALL Gods children are important. The priesthood is a blessing and gift from God to his people. He would not give one generation priesthood authority to then just take it away from other generations until the end of time. Answer this question honestly. Do you really believe that God, from Adam to Jesus, blessed his people with prophets, apostles, priesthoods, revelations, scripture…then bam! He says, “Alright, I think I’ve done enough, it’s time to leave them on their own.” I can say with conviction, never was that Gods way, that is not Gods way now, and I don’t forsee a loving God ever doing that in the future.
blessed says
Dear friend, Please read( Hebrews 8:4) before you start talking about the the Levitical priesthood.
You cant teach christians about something that you have no idea about
Read (Numbers 18:1-3) please do not try to interpret what it says just read it even a 10yr old child can understand those verses
Minister Fred Hatchett says
Scripture is the final authority on the Levitical Priesthood. Hebrews 7:11-23 gives
the reasons why the Levitical Priesthood was abolished. I will allow you to read
the scriptures themselves for they are crystal clear. Remember that Hebrews is
written after Jesus’ death, which marks the actual beginning of the New Testament.
The Priesthood is a blessing from God, because the Priest is God Himself, the
High Priest, Jesus Christ.
James says
J HOLSTOCK, You have no business in here you are not even a christian .Go follow joseph smith lies and deception. Why dont you go find out where joseph smith got the book of Mormon from.The lies and deception you are trying so hard to sell here is a smoke screen to make people belive that mormons follow Jesus.
Mormons follow Joseph Smith but use the name of Jesus to attract people but joseph smith is the main focus on all its doctrine. So please stop your nonsense and go try sell your deception somwhere else.
Elder Joshua J. Holdstock says
James,
With all due respect, It sounds like you know just about next to nothing about the church of JESUS CHRIST of latter-day saints. If you’d like to give me your address I have a couple friends that can come over and talk to you. (that’s just a joke so calm down everyone)
Although this blogs main focus has been on tithes and offerings and issues related to that, I’d like to address your comments since you felt the need to bring them up.
As the name states, the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints actually does have, at it’s focal point, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I don’t know what has lead you to believe otherwise.
Although important as a Prophet, Joseph Smith is not by any stretch of the imagination the main focus of the Church. He is important in the fact that if he is a true prophet of our loving Father in Heaven, then the church he restored would have to be a true church. To understand the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints, you have to understand what happened to Joseph Smith and therefore that is one of the first things that is taught to people who are unfamiliar with the Church.
Robert George Fox says
I feel I should apologize for how harsh I was saying: “You are a manipulator just like Joseph Smith.” I was angry because I felt you were toying with people’s feeling about religion here. Regardless if you were or not, I don’t believe I should have insulted your religious beliefs by calling Joseph Smith a manipulator.
Just so you know where I stand, I identify most with the Quaker faith, for whatever that is worth. As far as seeking Christ about the tithe, I was serious when I said that is exactly what I did. I meditated on His feeding the 5000. It seems that this event would not happen today. Jesus did not even own a donkey, but he had to borrow one to ride into Jerusalem. I could not imagine Jesus commanding anyone to give Him money. He commanded people to give to the poor, but not to him. He lived a life of poverty. Some churches today would request that people tithe to them regardless of the hardship it would cause them or their families. That is contrary to how Jesus treated people. From this point, I knew that the tithe was wrong, before I even studied scripture about it. And that is the truth.
As far as whether you should be here or not, I believe is Jared’s call. I know of no restrictions that he has imposed on who can post messages here. However, I that think that something as important as belonging to a church that believes that all creeds are an “abomination” that believes other books for scripture, one should place their cards on the table to reduce misunderstandings.
What I don’t understand if this is what your actually believe about the Levitical Priesthood: “God has given that Priesthood to many many men here in our day.” My understanding, from a Mormon I carpool with, is that the LDS faith believes in the Aaronic Priesthood, a subgroup of the Levitical Priesthood. But, according to LDS theology, the Old Testament Levitical Priesthood presently has been “set aside” even though, according to them, it still exists. Hopefully the words I am using are not grossly inaccurate. Despite what you say, I can prove that your statement: “God has given that Priesthood to many many men here in our day” is not true the way your audience here would understand it. Nor does the LDS faith does not advocate that either. Does the Levitical Priesthood sacrifice animals in your gorgeous temples? No! Does your temples resemble the layout of the Jewish temples in the Old Testament? No. Do you live by the Old Testment Law as layed out in the Old Testament? You don’t kill rebellious children. You don’t kill anyone who is not a priest who worships God directly as the Old Testament in Numbers 18 requires.
How do you account for your statements supporting the Levitical priesthood, when the LDS faith has the Aaronic Priesthood?
James says
Joshua J Holdstock, you can try and mislead christians to accept you and your lies but you can not fool me. Your church is the biggest and most influential cult that is here on earth. Your doctrine is so unbelivably stupid you need to be one to fall for for it. Mormons used to visit me and tried to recrute our family. It was funny, I bound them in the name of Christ Jesus and commanded them to leave and not to deceive anyone again on my street, they ran as if I had a gun pointing at them and never came back. I lived at that address for 4 years but no mormons came back.
You can not intimidate me, I would like you to send me anyone from your church but I have to warn you God changed my life from hurting people for fun and money to living for christ.
Sam says
This is for the elder J Holdstock, This site are for christians commenting about tithes,you do not qualify to even try to say one thing about tithing. Your church use the book of mormons in your services and most of your church members admit that the book of mormons is the book that your church prefer to study than the bible.
I think to argue and post your opinions about tithing is a sneaky way in to try and recrute new members for your mormon church. You have absolutely no idea about what we are discussing here. Go try the Muslim community or Hindu
Elder Joshua J. Holdstock says
I suppose the first part of your comment was just a reiteration of what James said, that I was not a christian? I didn’t address that above because I don’t know his or your definition of a Christian. Some might think it reasonable to think that in order to be concidered a Christian one would have to believe that Jesus is our Saviour, that he atoned for our sins in the Garden and continued his suffing on the cross then willingly gave his life that we may live. It would be reasonable to think that a Christian would believe and rejoice in the resurrection of Jesus the Christ. I certainly believe that he lived and died for me and you and everyone else that will believe in his name. I love him more that words can express. And I’m happy to share that to the world. If you have a different definition of a Christian outside of that then…?…I don’t know what to say.
I’m sorry if you have been offended by my posts. I don’t understand how you could say I am not qualified and have no Idea about what we are discussing here. Perhaps you could explain a little better the qualification I’d need to be able to post my comments. While you are thinking of those qualifications I’ll continue to express my firm belief tithing is not null and void while others reject my belief.
Lastly, I like the way you think. The Muslims and Hindu could bennefit greatly by having a better understanding of or Saviour. I’ll do my best to shed some light and knowledge to them any chance I get. I’d love it if you’d help too. God Speed.
Sam says
Hi, Joshusua J H, The bible are for christians the book of mormon is an abomintion. Christians have absolutely nothing in common with mormons.
Its a business and all who are deceived by this cult are sadly caught up in satans lies. Tell the people the truth, I have people that are in this church who informed me that mormons only use the bible to deceive people in thinking that they follow Jesus but they promote and follow a con man name “joseph smith” The book of mormons is their bible but they deny it because it scares people away from this cult
WARNING : CULT, RECRUTING FORM MORMONS HERE!!!!!!!!!!
Robert George Fox says
I want to reply to Sam. I believe I have a better view about Mormonism than anyone else here. I was the one who warned everyone else about Joshua. When I was a Mormon as a kid, I was willing to turn the other cheek. I was willing to sacrifice for my faith. When my grandmother, who was Mormon died, I sensed her presents around me and I didn’t even have any proof she had died. That came a half hour later. Freedom of religion come into this country by two people, Baptist Roger Williams and Quaker William Penn. Penn was not a Trinitarian. Founder of the Quakers, George Fox, spoke of the “Godhead” and did not use the word Trinity. Fact is he seemed to believe in it. You would probably call Penn a cult leader because he was not a trinitarian. God knows our hearts. Name calling is the tool used by kids mostly, and I believe that our calling to show the fruits of the Spirit, means that we should reframe from being so brash and strife. Show the fruits of the Spirit, not the fleshly sin nature. I am a Quaker, a Trinitarian, and an ex-Mormon. Most people have error in their doctrine. Most of the Mormon doctrinal differences are inconsequential. Some are.
Minister Fred Hatchett says
Brother Martin, who is God speaking to in Malachi 3? Take a look at Malachi 1 and 2.
Russell Earl Kelly says
To Elder Joshua Holdstock
Your comments do not contain a single text to validate your claim that the Levitical priesthood is still present today. Please give some scriptural evidence of this. I offer many, especially Hebrews 7:12, 18.
God’s character certainly does not change and will not change. However, God Himself deals with different people in different ways according to the covenant conditions He has with them. Jer 31:31-37; Heb 8:8-13.
In His transcendence, God decided to choose a Babylonian named Abram and build a very special nation with him in which the whole world was to be blessed. God treated Abram (later Abraham after circumcision) much differently than other people and other nations.
God later made a covenant with Abraham’s Promised Seed which was national Israel. He did not make a covenant with Abraham’s physical seed through Ishmael and Esau.
The Old Covenant was only given to national Israel. In fact God told Israel NOT to share its covenant with other nations and with you and me who are Gentiles.
When Old Covenant Israel refused to accept its Messiah, God temporarily set them aside and began dealing with the Body of Christ, the mysterious body, in terms of a different New Covenant. This was an entirely different way of dealing with an entirely different group of people. God stayed the same but his dealings changed according to the covenant.
God does not change with the winds and ideas of men –but He does change his ways of dealing with men differently according to the covenant He had made with them. He treated Old Covenant national Israel one way under the Law and He treats the New Covenant Church in another way under Grace and Faith.
Yes, God, from Adam to Jesus, blessed his people with prophets, apostles, priesthoods, revelations, scripture…then bam! Jesus died on the cross and became the perfect sinless sacrifice –BAM. The Old Covenant ended and the veil in the Temple ripped –BAM. Even Gentiles could gaze into the formerly forbidden Most Holy Place –BAM.
I can say with conviction, that it was always God’s intended plan since Exodus 19:5-6 to make every believer a priest with access into the Presence of God. The plan was temporarily suspended after Israel worshipped the golden calves and Levi crossed over to serve Moses. The Levitical priesthood ended when it was replaced by the Melchizedek high priesthood of Jesus after the order or a Gentile king-priest and God’s will was knowable to all mankind.
CHANGE OF PRIESTHOOD LAW:
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
DISANNULLING CHANGE OF PRIESTHOOD LAW:
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 8:1 CHANGE: Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
CHANGE: 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
CHANGE: 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
CHANGE: 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
CHANGE: 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
CHANGE: 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
CHANGE: 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
CHANGE: 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
CHANGE: 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
CHANGE: 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
CHANGE: 1 Peter 2:9
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
CHANGE: 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV
Russell Earl Kelly says
Russ Kelly to Elder Holdstock
It is you who does not understand the purpose and use of the biblical law called the Old Covenant.
First, God only gave the Old Covenant law to national Israel and then He commanded Israel NOT to share it with others like us Gentiles.
Second, I would like you to define what you mean when you use the word “law.” Is it the whole law? Is it only the moral law? If it is only the moral law, how do we distinguish it between other laws in the Bible? Does it include the statutes under which minor sins were addressed by the priests? Does it include the judgments under which major sins were addressed by the judges?
Are we still obligated to kill our disobedient children per Exodus 21:15, 17?
What principle do you use when bringing something over from the Old Covenant into the New? I believe that it must be repeated to the Church after Calvary in terms of grace and faith in order to apply to the Church.
The New Covenant law is the “law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” per Romans 8:2. That is the law of love written in our hearts by the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is not the Ten Commandments or the OT law per 2 Cor 3:1-18.
You quoted Matthew 5:17-18. Have you read 5:20-48? Jesus was telling his Jewish audience that the whole law was in full effect until he had lived a perfect sinless life and died to redeem mankind from the condemnation of the law. It was either all of nothing. You cannot sub-divide the Old Covenant law or you are guilty of Mt 5:20.
anonymous says
Russell they don’t hear you because the agenda is to keep the money coming in by any means necessary including compromising the truth. Hebrews Chapter 8 verses 6, 7 and 8 declares Christ a better Covenant than the old with better promises. Jesus said ask the Father in his name for our needs, not tithe in his name but ask in his name. Sounds pretty clear to me!
People want to feel they have earned their justification and these kinds of mindsets no one can change.
Martha Sue says
Minister Fred are you a Jew living in the Old Testament days before Jesus went to Calvary? That is the audience God was talking to in Malachi in the first place he was not talking to Gentiles at all. Gentiles were not even grafted in till after the Cross, then Gentiles were grafted in the a New Covenant called Grace (unearned favor), not law keeping.
Is Minister Fred also keeping the Sabbath from Frid. to Sat ? Just wondering, since that was the law too and not keeping it resulted in stoning.
Minister Fred Hatchett says
Martha, I know you are being sarcastic, but unfortunately I do not know where you are going with this. No, I am not a Sabbath-Keeper.
My whole premise has nothing to do with the whole Jewish-Gentile Law thing, it’s the preachers who try to justify TITHING by saying they are the present day Levitical Priesthood. I was responding to Elder Holdstock.
Russell Earl Kelly says
Holdstock to Gwaine: Do we not all enjoy one of Gods greatest gifts which is that of freedom?
Kelly: You sir, by teaching tithing, have removed FREEDOM of the gospel message and have placed yourself and your congregation under the Hebrew law. How dare you talk about freedom and tithing in the same breath! OT Levitical tithing was cold hard LAW and must be given whether one was joyful or not. And those who received those tithes were not allowed to own or inherit property. Do you, sir, own property contrary to Numbers 18?
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Holdstock: None-the-less, I have discovered through prayer, fasting, and personal revelation that tithing is a command from God …
Kelly: In addition to prayer, fasting and personal revelation –may I suggest a through in-dept, verse by verse, study of God’s Word. There are 16 texts which describe the contents of the HOLY tithe and it is always only FOOD from inside God’s OT HOLY land of Israel. Tithes could not come from what man increased or from outside Israel. Nobody tithes today.
Holdstock: … in the sense that He will not force you to pay it other than to withhold the blessings you would have gained from following the Law of the Tithe.
Kelly: Nobody can pay real HOLY tithes today unless they are a Hebrew living under the Old Covenant inside Israel. God is right now, in 2010, dealing with His Body, the Church, under the terms of the New Covenant. Gentiles never were under the Old Covenant so why would God discipline Christians for breaking a covenant which they were never under and which faded away after Calvary because it was weak and unprofitable? See 2 Cor 3:10; Heb 7:12-18 and 8:12.
Holdstock: If my assessment is not wrong about you, Gwaine, I strongly, strongly urge you to follow the council in James “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and abraideth not; and it shall be given him.” The power of the spirit will give you the answer you seek, not me or ‘tithe’ or ‘freewillgiver’ or anyone else.
Kelly: Again you want your primary source of information to come from other than God’s Word. The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to “remind us what we have been taught by Christ in the Word.”
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Russell Earl Kelly says
Kelly to Elder Joshua J. Holdstock: Note: This was to Tithe and not myself.
Holdstock: It sounds like you put forth a great deal of effort to further your anti-tithe agenda.
Kelly: My effort is defending God’s Word against the traditions of men. You are the one who is not dialoging from the very inspired words of God’s Word.
Holdstock: I suppose in a sense your fervor is admirable but at it’s heart it is very sinister.
Kelly: Instead of telling the world what is wrong with our understanding of God’s Word, you choose to attack us.
Holdstock: Your goal is to decrease giving.
Kelly: You do not know what you are talking about. The early church of Paul’s day grew like a weed without teaching tithing. When the preacher preaches the Word of God with fervor and reminds the congregation of souls on the way to Hell without Jesus, the money comes in. Do you attack Martin Luther, D L Moody and John MacArthur? –They do/did not teach tithing and their churches and schools thrive.
Holdstock: You mingle into your argument scriptures that, according to your interpretation, prove your assertion.
Kelly: And you do not? Is not this what every preacher does? Do you listen to yourself?
Holdstock: You mingle into your arguments the morality of giving freely, as even your name declares…all the while having the underlying devilish motive to get people to stop giving.
Kelly: Stop attacking us and defend your understanding of God’s Word. Act like Jesus and Paul.
Holdstock: I would council you ‘Tithe’ or any other reader to this blog, to put aside your thesis, your books, your literature and your logic generated by anyone other than Apostles and Prophets of the Almighty Himself and kneel down in prayer and ask the God in Heaven, with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ to manifest the truth about tithing to you.
Kelly: This has got to be the most arrogant, audacious, authoritarian, belligerent, condescending and insulting remark I have ever seen by a person defending tithing.
Holdstock: He (the Apostle and Prophet) WILL answer you in one of two ways, 1)He will refer you to Malachi and impress upon your mind that you must, “Prove me now herewith” for it is by the actual planting of a seed that one reaps the reward of a fruitful harvest.
Kelly: If “he” (the Apostle or Prophet) answers like that, then “he” is a FALSE Apostle and/or a FALSE Prophet. The entire Old Covenant Law was a TEST –not merely tithing. Obey all to be blessed; break one to be cursed. God never commanded any Gentile to obey the Old Covenant law and a true Apostle and a true Prophet would know that.
Holdstock: or 2) You will feel the fruit of the spirit which is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith. In other words, God will answer you with a calming peaceful, loving feeling that what you pray for is right, if not you will have a stupor of thought.
Kelly: Again, John 14:26 tells me that the Holy Spirit will remind me what the Word of God teaches. I prefer the Word of God rather than touchy feely emotion.
Holdstock: When one turns to logic, intellect, and scriptural proof of a Godly principle, one is building his foundation on sandy shores and opens himself up to be deceived by men mingling their philosophies with Godly truth.
Kelly: Read your own words of blasphemy. You have just instructed us to IGNORE “scriptural proof of godly principles.” And you have the audacity to publicly write this!!!
Holdbook: Seek for personal revelation from God and there will be your answer.
Kelly: That is NOT what God’s Word teaches.
Ps 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another …
Elder Joshua J. Holdstock says
Wow! I seemed to touch a cord with the Eloquent Earl.
Am I to suppose that it is your belief that all Christs words and teachings are contained within the Holy Bible? Do you think maybe he may have taught a few things here and there that somehow didn’t get written down? I wonder if He came down and plopped, ‘The Book of Andrew’ in your lap if you would argue that He must be mistaken.
You seem to get angry with my suggestion that one can ask the Giver of Light and recieve answers to questions pertaining to ones salvation. Why is that? Was James mistaken when he said that if any man lacks wisdom he may ask of God who giveth to all men liberally and abraideth not. Doesn’t that mean that we can ask God questions and He will answer them? In most circles that would be a rhetorical question but I’d like to hear your response.
Robert George Fox says
Well, well, well. You ignore my question and keep harping on Dr. Kelly. I will list what my question was and I will show what I found on your facebook page. You are a manupulator just like Joseph Smith!
• Robert George Fox says:
05/17/2010 at 7:05 pm
“Elder Josua J Holdstock” is Mormon. It takes one to know one. I am still a deacon in the Mormon Church roles but I have not attended in 43 years.
Elder Joshua Holdstock, I rebuke you for misleading this group by not being forthcoming! I adjure you by the lIving God, answer the question! What church are your loyalties to?
FACEBOOK
Joshua Holdstock If you believe god speaks to his children through his prophets as I do, listen to the words of this prophet.
(Video followed from a LDS prophet in 1965)
Warning To All
Check this out… the passing of the unconstitutional healthcare reform made me think of this video. Scary times ahead!
Length:3:38
Robert George Fox says
To Dr. Kelly you said:”Was James mistaken when he said that if any man lacks wisdom he may ask of God who giveth to all men liberally and abraideth not.” Well, Joshua, I must agree with you on this one. I did the very same thing when I asked him if the LDS Church was true or is the Jesus preached from the Bible a lone was true. God answered me. So that is why I was assure that the LDS faith was false. But I took it one step further than you. I felt obligated to God to love Him with all my mind and strength. So rather than toss out my powers or reason, I ask from his wisdom in studying the Bible. That is how I have learned to agree with Dr. Kelly on just about everything he says about tithing. Oh, by the way, the Joesph Smith Translation does not modify any of the tithing scripture in the first 5 books of the Bible. I was reading for this today. So the context remains the same. The tithe from the Law of Moses was always only food, never money, despite the fact that money is mentioned frequently in the first five books. This God commanded tithe include alcohol (wine} in violation to your “Word of Wisdom” Money was prohibited from being the tithe. How is your “Restored” gospel going to deal with that? D & C says it is money, in contradiction to how Joseph Smith translated it! I know, reason and logic don’t have the power as your faith’s endless affimations, ” I bear my testamony that the LDS Church is the true church and that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God … and on and on and on” Don’t let reason and common sense get in the way of believing a lie.
Sam says
Dear Robert G Fox,I only have a question for you, christians have the bible, mormons the book of mormons and muslims the koran. Which belief and doctrine you are trying to say its the same with christianity ? God of the bible is not the same god of the book of mormons, or the koran. Book of mormons,and the koran was not inspired by the Holy Spirit,it was inspired by evil spirits to deceive people.
MORMONS ARE DECEIVED AND THEY NEED DELIVERANCE
Robert George Fox says
Which belief and doctrine is the same as christianity? I will try to sum it up at the risk of creating too rough cut. Believing that Jesus died for our sins and we each and every individual are in personal debt to HIm because it is my problem and your sin that sent him there. Jesus was sinless. He is God and worthy of worship. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is God. We should make ourselves a living sacrifice to God. God judges our heart, but our believe must be supported with our actions. We cannot earn favor with God, because we are justified by God’s grace alone, not our works. So we should have works showing our faith and as the result of our heart, but never confuse that our works “earn” us anything!
I don’t know that one could say that the book of Mormon was inspired by an evil spirit. It has been proposed that it was written as a novel and that Joseph Smith stole it from some publisher and used it as “inspired”. Point is, I have no bases for knowing and neither do you. It could have been harmless in origin and then misused to deceive people. I believe this could not be ruled out, or ruled in. And I would not rule out that it was written under the influence of some evil power, but I don’t think so. It glorifies God too much and introduces very little doctrine. It is about what I believe is a fictional account of the lost tribes of Israel moving to the American landmass. It has stories of faith and war of these peoples. At some point Christ comes and preaches the gospel to these people. It is written in King James style english and uses the same style of words to describe God. Most Mormon doctrines come from the others “inspired” books of the LDS church, mostly the Doctrine of Covenants. Doctrines such as eternal marriage, temple marriages and others are not found in there. So I have read. I have not read entirely through the Book of Mormon, nor have I studied it. I have on rare occasion, did a topical search through it.
With all these other doctrines, does it matter? Hard for me to believe it does so long as it doesn’t supplant the Bibles gospel from the New Testament. Does a child who is a Christian go to hell for believing in Santa Claus? If the apostles believed the world was flat, do they go to hell? How much error is tolerable in one’s mind to be allowed to enter heaven? The Bible says that what was given was sufficient for those believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Clearly, the Koran surplants the Gospel with Jesus being saved from the cross and denying his divinity. The book of Mormon does neither. The LDS church says they follow scripture and their Holy books. The truth, however, is that they follow whim. They say they rely on their prophets because the bible is corrupt because of errors introduced through copies and translations. But Joseph Smith came up with his own translation. Do they rely on his translation? No, because they believe that there were key doctrines not written down in the Old Testament. Wait, I thought it was because the “bible was corrupt.” Now, we find out that it is because key doctrines were left out! The Aaronic Priesthood (or Levitical Priesthood) is a great example, believing that it includes doctrines that the Mormon say it includes like baptism. What happen to the Old Testament levitical priesthood ordinances? I have looked, and I have yet to find anything that addresses it, except to say the the tribe of Levi don’t exist so the gospel gave it over to the NEW Priesthood. Which one do you want to believe? Don’t think, just trust the leaders of the Mormon church! Trust what they say, when they say it. Because of progressive revelation it constantly changes. Most the time, if you take with a Mormon, you get some long, draw out, rambling story, that often times forgets your question or misses your point.
They have a “restored gospel” Well, which “gospel” is the restored one? Is it the one that excluded blacks from their priesthood forever? Or is it the one where polygamy is legal on this earth? No, we have a new revelation for each of these! They come up with all this doctrinal levine, and I don’t want to be in the position to judge which one is critical to turn God off for all situations. They accept the divinity of Christ, they accept three persons, one God (close enough for the trinity? I don’t want to make the call), and that Jesus died for our sins, (though they confused even that doctrine, depends on the Mormon you talk to).
Sam says
Thank you Robert G Fox, for clearing that out. The agenda for Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Seventh day adventist coming on this site is to deceive and try to recruite christians to join their churches.
The bible is the only written word of God. Apostle Paul put a double curse on anyone who adds or teach anything to deceive christians from the gospel of Grace.
Debradoo says
First let me say here .. There is some wonderful truths here in some of these anti-tithing posts. (Some that I would love to ‘hijack’ in future debates? JK!) But, I do notice that whenever the subject of money comes into play .. there is a sudden loss of common spiritual sense in those opposed to tithing. Let me give some for instances ..
Many (most actually) of those opposing the tithe use.. the ‘fleecing of televangelists’ to promote their stance and claim that tithing allows them to build their dreams and have others pay for such.
However ..
quote.. In a recent study conducted by the Barna Group, it was learned that only five percent of Americans gave away at least 10 percent of their income (to the church or any charitable organization) in 2007. This level of giving was not a great surprise, as it has been around five percent since 2000.. end quote
If tithers are making televangelists (and other pastors) rich, then these 5 percent must be giving more than a mere 10 percent since so very few few Christians are faithful to tithe. It seems that one of the strongest arguments for keeping the tithe is that there are hordes of corrupt pastors and teachers that are desperate for our money and using our tithes to build their elaborate churches and live an elaborate lifestyle. If this is the case .. then why give anything to a church? Why not use this ‘scenario’ for keeping any money at all from going out to churches. Is there somewhere in the Bible that says having a well to do pastor or an elaborate church is a sin? What about the ark of the Covenant? Check out Exodus 25-27 .. Now THAT is elaborate! And again, the temple that Solomon built .. WOW!
Here’s another greatly used argument against the tithe ..
The poor man is made to tithe and some have lost everything due to the tithe. They lose their homes, their jobs, their cars, etc.
Seriously .. because of 10 percent?? Have you done the math? If a man makes 400.00 dollars a week and tithes 40 of that 400.00 .. you truly think this 40 dollars is going to save his home or his job or his car, etc.? Seems to me that someone that allows 10 percent of their income to make or break them has a bigger problem than tithing 10 percent. (And they might want to take a money management course.) I mean, what are people going to do with this new health bill? They will be losing a good chunk of their paychecks and too many will be blaming the government for not being able to manage their own finances. Sheesh.
And here is another argument against the tithe ..
“It is not in the New Testament and we are under a New Covenant.”
There are lots of things that we embrace today as Christians that were under the Old Covenant .. Observing the Sabbath. Taking Communion. Obeying the 10 commandments. Tithing is more than just an Old Covenant command .. It is a principle that works in this earth today!
And here is another ..
“People must be freed from the command to give”.
Let me first emphasize that the tithe is not giving. It is paying. (It is not yours to give!) God owns all. Everything. We own nada. Nothing. When we pay our 10 percent, then in exchange God gives us 90 percent. Out of this 90, we can give an offering or make a donation or support a charity, etc. (It cannot be an offering if it belongs to God.) God owns 100 percent of all we have or will have. When we give Him 10 percent, this allows Him to give us the 90 percent. Now, we are free to become His stewards. There is freedom in tithing. The freedom is having the 90 percent with which we can be led to use as the Holy Spirit instructs us. But, if we do not give 10 percent then God cannot give us the 90 and we will be stealing from God and using HIS money to brag about our generosity. (This principle is overlooked time and time again by the non-tither.) There is no freedom in disobeying God. There can only be freedom when we obey God. (We all need to ask God to help us see the ‘tithe’ through HIS eyes.)
Here is another argument used by the tithing opponents ..
“If we are commanded to give 10 percent then we are not able to give freely from our hearts or be led by the Spirit.”
Not true. When we pay (again, this is NOT giving) our 10 percent, we have 90 percent that we can use to give freely from our hearts and/or or to be led of the Spirit.
Jared Brian says
Debradoo,
There is so many things that need to be cleared up in your statements that i don’t even know where to begin.
First, the fleecing of God’s people should not be considered support against tithing as you state. There are evil people, who do evil things. As an anti-tither, i recognize that tithing is an abusive tool to manipulate God’s people. They are just stories of abuse, they are not proof against tithing.
There is nothing wrong with having a well-to-do pastor or elaborate church building. But i guess we could say there was nothing wrong with the rich young ruler. I guess Jesus was over-exaggerating when he said it was harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Next, the poor man received the tithes in the Old Testament, he did not pay them. Also, if you did not grow any crops or raise any animals. This means that carpenters, bankers, lawyers, and doctors did not tithe a single cent off their occupational income. So, yes, seriously! A poor man should not have to pay tithes.
Third, the ‘lots of things that we embrace in the old testament’ is not a blanketed statement to obey all things in the old testament; or for that matter to choose on our own what to obey. The 10 commandments was based on moral laws, but in and of itself it was a civil code. We support civil laws against murder because we embrace the moral law against hate. We support civil laws against adultery because we embrace moral law against lust. We support civil laws against theft because we embrace the moral law against covetousness. Tithing is not a principle, it is a standard. Sacrificial giving is a principle.
Fourth, I agree that tithing is paying. Just like i pay my taxes, i cannot give them. Giving is a choice, paying is not.
Finally, if you believe that tithing is commanded, you cannot give your 10% freely or according to the instructions of the holy Spirit. NO ONE disagrees that tithers have 90% of their income to give freely.
I used to split my giving into tithes and offerings, and give my tithes first; until one day it dawned on me – that if i give my freewill offerings how i’m suppose to in the first place then why have a command to tithe?
– jared
Debradoo says
Hey Jared, nice to meet you.
Honestly, I see the failure to tithe or to promote against the tithe as a ‘no fault’ and/or ‘no accountability’ type doctrine. I see this type of doctrine over and over in the debates of healing, prosperity, speaking in tongues, etc. The masses gravitate towards an easy and convenient gospel, that allow them to be slack concerning their hearts, their minds, and their money. This type of doctrine will strive to explain the Word of God according to human experience and never come face to face with their own humanity or sinful human nature. (In other words, it brings God down to their level instead of rising up to meet His level.) It is a doctrine steeped in ‘poor me’ and ‘look at what they have done to me’ and is based on emotions and it creates a ‘victim’ type mentality. Emotions and need do not move God. Faith does. It also puts man before God and even goes so far as to pretty much trash our salvation. This type doctrine also seeks to use the Bible to verify it’s claims. Hordes of OT scripture are used over and over to confirm that we are no longer under the OT or Old Covenant. In other words, if we want to know how “NOT to TITHE” we are told to study the OT. But, if we want to know if it is YES TO TITHE”, we are accused of using OT. Double standards.
There is no longer a ‘poor me’. Jesus came to give us life and give it more abundantly. If we fail to have this abundant life then we are falling short, not God. Where do we fall short? In our obedience and in our understanding of God and His Word and His Ways.
So as you can see, I am as passionate about promoting the tithe as you are about doing away with the tithe. But, truly, I come in respect and if I offend anyone, I apologize as this is not my intention. As the subject of ‘tithing’ fires me up as well. And I cannot explain why any more than you can except to believe that it is a desire placed in me by God.
Let me ask you .. What goes through your mind when you hear or see ‘the love of money is the root of all evil’? I mean, what pictures do you see in your mind? I ask this because most people see some rich and powerful dictator(s) with wicked and evil intentions running things with an iron scepter and breaking the backs of the poor or less fortunate. A kind of slave and slave driver image. (Most of the USA is programmed to think in this fashion.) I admit to seeing it this way myself, until God corrected me. However, this is not at all what God meant for us to see when He said this. Even the poorest of the poor can have a love for money. They love it so much, it becomes elusive for them. They love money so much they covet, they steal, they lie, they cheat, they rob, they murder, etc. Few will ever get rich by stealing or lying or robbing or cheating. Most rich men today did not break the backs of the poor man to attain their riches.
quote .. There is nothing wrong with having a well-to-do pastor or elaborate church building. But i guess we could say there was nothing wrong with the rich young ruler. I guess Jesus was over-exaggerating when he said it was harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.. end quote
When God speaks of the rich young ruler He is speaking of someone that has put money and possessions ahead of God. He is not opposed to the rich young ruler being rich or his riches, but instead, He is opposed to his fearing to let his riches go and believe God that He will supply his needs and return to him what he had plus more. This rich young ruler is in fear and that is the downfall here. Not the riches. Obviously the rich young ruler recognized the divinity of Jesus or he would not have approached Him. Still, though knowing, he refused to give up what he had and then do as Jesus told him to do. (His possessions were more important than obeying Jesus.) Fear breeds disobedience and a failure to put God first. When Jesus makes a comment about the camel and the eye of the needle, notice what His disciples say .. “Who then can be saved?” This must mean that the disciples and Jesus both had money or else they would have not said such as they would have been assured of their own salvation. God is rich. Jesus became poor, meaning He is and was rich. So, God could not possibly have a problem with riches or being rich.
The tithe has more functions than just to take care of the poor.
quote .. Finally, if you believe that tithing is commanded, you cannot give your 10% freely or according to the instructions of the holy Spirit. NO ONE disagrees that tithers have 90% of their income to give freely… end quote
Right. However there is 90 percent with which I CAN give freely and which I CAN give according to the instructions of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, I am freely giving as well as being obedient with the tithe…right?
Jared Brian says
YOU SAID: I see the failure to tithe or to promote against the tithe as a ‘no fault’ and/or ‘no accountability’ type doctrine.
ME: This is where you are wrong. Since when does grace mean no accountability? Liberty is not a license to fulfill my flesh, just as salvation by grace is not a reason to live however i wish. Should we implement the levitical laws to force a ministerial class to serve because we are worried that people might just live how they please?
YOU SAID: if we want to know how “NOT to TITHE” we are told to study the OT. But, if we want to know if it is YES TO TITHE”, we are accused of using OT.
ME: No, i want you to use the OT, but i want you to be consistent and honest. When you use the OT to claim the poor should tithe, and yet, it is plain as day that the poor received a tithe; then of course i’m going to use the OT against you. When you claim from the OT that a tithe is 10% of your first fruits, I will show how the OT shows that tithing is not first fruits. What do you expect?
YOU SAID: “What goes through your mind when you hear or see ‘the love of money is the root of all evil’?”
ME: The love of money is the root of all ‘KINDS’ of evil. It is not the root of ‘All’ evil. it wasn’t the root in Satan’s fall, and it wasn’t the root cause in the garden. That’s the first thing. Second, I am not envious of the wealthy. Quite the opposite. I would consider myself supportive of them. I couldn’t agree more that Few will ever get rich by stealing or lying or robbing or cheating and that Most rich men today did not break the backs of the poor man to attain their riches. It’s sad to see that most believe that those at the top of the ladder stepped on someone else to get there.
I am against the ministries and wolves in charge who use the name of God and guilt to solicit money in order to fulfill a lavish lifestyle. I don’t need a neon sign from God showing me which ministers possess the love of money.
Debradoo says
QUOTE .. Fourth, I agree that tithing is paying. Just like i pay my taxes, i cannot give them. Giving is a choice, paying is not… end quote
QUOTE.. I used to split my giving into tithes and offerings, and give my tithes first.. end quote
Can you see the inconsistency here? In the first instance you claim that you agree that the tithe is paying and not giving. But, in the second instance you claim that you gave your tithes first (you never mentioned that you paid your tithes). So, you were never a tither to begin with .. right?
Many people see the tithe as something that is sacrificial on their part. The tithe is what we owe God and is not sacrificed. And the poor man owes God just as well as the rich man or the middle class man. Why? Because the tithe benefits us, not God. Not the churches. Not the rich pastors. The tithe was put into mandate because it benefits us. And when we benefit then the Kingdom of God benefits.
You say you are against the ministries and wolves that are in charge that use the name of God and guilt to solicit money in order to fufill a lavish lifestyle. What about the ones that are supporting this lavish lifestyle? Aren’t they held accountable or at fault? Are not those that are coerced with guilt and the name of God, just as guilty as the ones that are doing the fleecing (if not MORE SO, they should know better!)?
Jesus commended the poor widow who threw in her money. Was Jesus standing there and allowing this woman to be fleeced? And Elijah took the last morsel of food from a widow and her son. Do you consider him to be guilty of fleecing? It is the job of a pastor or preacher to teach the tithe and to receive the tithe. Yes, there are crooked ones and they are using this teaching to benefit their own lives. But what does that matter? The tithe is between the tither and God. Not the pastor or preacher. It isn’t a matter of ‘if they support the pastor’ but a matter of ‘why’. And if their ‘why’ is because they desire to be obedient to God and believe His Word, then God will deal with them. And if their desire is for the pastor or preacher, then shame on them anyway and they are asking for trouble.
There are two classes of tithers (maybe more, but only two that come to mind right now). Those that tithe to the church and those that tithe to God. They both look like the same person. But, they are not and only God can judge their hearts.
Tithing is paying to God what belongs to Him (it is not about the church or the pastors). Offerings are sacrificed from the ninety percent that is left and should be Spirit led giving.
Jared Brian says
Giving/Paying . . . are you kidding me? You are arguing semantics!? You are right. I repent! I will crawl on my hands and knees around the world as penance.
i speak out about the wolves to prevent even more people from being coerced. Are you the referee going around making sure everyone is being fair? Reminds me of my childhood. whenever my brother would be punished for something he would say, “well, jared did it too”
Did Jesus flip the table over of the fleecing money changers? it would be good to stay on one subject here. Either fleecing or tithing. I view them as different subjects.
Minister Fred Hatchett says
Debradoo et. al.,
I have looked at all of your posts, and I do not see one single scripture to support any of your claims. Same for those who are debating with her. Let us not forget the central part our the message as anti-tithers, the Word of God. The pro-tithers can use semantics, statistics, cliches, one-liners, etc., but when you go to the Word of God, the victory is ours irregardless of the debate.
Comment about King Solomon’s Temple as it relates to building big churches; THERE WAS ONLY ONE!!!!!
The church NEVER owed the tithe to anyone. The tithe was paid by CERTAIN JEWS to the LEVITES, who in turn tithed to the PRIESTS. Numbers 18
Now, as I have asked before, but was never answered, and I hope it is because the individual(s) decided to study for themselves; who is God talking to in Malachi 1, 2, and 3?
This 10%/90% foolishness ignores the FACT that we still pay taxes, possibly to the tune of 50-60% of our pay. So we are now left with at most 40%. Now this is before paying any bills. Remember that scripture,
I Tinothy 5:8- But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
As I have stated for some time, when debating the scriptures, always look at the side who fails to mention certain information. In this case Debradoo, you failed to mention the fact that we pay taxes, and are told that we are worse than unbelievers if we do not provide for our families. So if it were between 10% and the rent, WHO SHOULD GET PAID????????
Debradoo says
quote .. it would be good to stay on one subject here. Either fleecing or tithing. I view them as different subjects… end quote
Title of this message .. 6 Reasons to Debate Tithing
quote .. I almost said that money is the root of evil. I think i write that because my mind is always on autopilot. Money is not the root of all kinds of evil. The LOVE of money is. Sure, tithing is a good discipline to rid greed from those who are giving, but what about those who are receiving? There are many out there who are extorting God’s word for the gain of money. Many of you think about televangelists, but that’s just a few on TV. There are many more who desire more and more money to build more and more of their kingdom. Sure, many of them think that God gave them this vision to do this or that. Tithing allows them to build their own dreams and mandate others to pay for it. It’s not necessarily that they love money; they love what money can build.. end quote
Just responding to your own remarks. But, if you want to stay on one subject .. then sure. You choose. And yes, I do get serious where words are concerned. I do not view as semantics. Wrong words or carelessly chosen words can have devastating effects. Giving and paying have two complete different meanings to me (and others I presume) and bring two complete different images to mind.
Oh and get up off the knees .. :-> JK!
Debradoo says
Hey there Fred!
quote .. In this case Debradoo, you failed to mention the fact that we pay taxes, and are told that we are worse than unbelievers if we do not provide for our families. So if it were between 10% and the rent, WHO SHOULD GET PAID????????.. end quote
We are to make provisions for both. Adjusting our income to meet our needs. Both can be accomplished (and even throw in those groceries and water bill and electric bill and gas, etc.) if we know how to manage our money wisely.
Tony Isaac says
I was a little hesitant joining in in this current discussion but curiosity has gotten the better of me. Debradoo, please what exactly are you on about? Are you trying to say that today’s church is supposed to tithe? If so, could you provide scriptures to back this up so that we can all stop go around in circles like a dog trying to catch its tail?
Minister Fred Hatchett says
Debradoo,
So now you are advocating socialism, where just because I am poorer, I cannot or should not own a flat screen TV, or drive a good car that gets good gas mileage, and has a record of lasting a long time, just to PAY ten percent that God no longer requires, but instead wants our giving from the heart, not of NECESSITY. You see, tithing is of necessity, it literally is a work, and you will find with tithers, a sense of arrogance. “Oh you don’t tithe, what? Oh you are cursed with a curse.” I mean, they have to believe that non-tithers are cursed, so if they do not believe that, how can they proclaim the whole counsel of God. By the way, who gets to give testimonies in front of the church? Tithers!!!!!!!!
You can make a budget, but that doesn’t mean that budget will be right, and it cannot account for certain issues beyond one’s control; a sick child, car repair, loss of jobs, etc. So as I said, if it’s between 10% and the rent, what does God expect you to pay? The answer is simple, all you have to say is 10% or the rent.
Tony,
She cannot, which is why she is playing the game of , “PASTOR SAID”! That would make for a great screen name or something. LOL!
Debradoo says
You are confusing confidence with arrogance. And I am confident. Not in my tithing .. But to Whom I belong.
Your argument is ridiculous. The Bible says ‘thou shalt not steal’ .. And your child is starving so do you steal to feed your child? The Bible says ‘thou shalt not lie’ .. But do you justify lying when you feel trapped or feel the need to lie?
We can justify anything we want. Hey we got grace right? See the ridiculousness of your argument?
Minister Fred Hatchett says
You did not answer my question. Instead, you are trying to present Red Herrings.
You have been justifying tithing with absolutely no apologetics, hermeneutics, or biblical exegesis at all. Actually, you have made a grave error in using the law to ridicule my argument.
Tithing is not a law, it is an ordinance of the law. When you have the chance, please go to Ephesians and Colossians. There you will find out what happened to ordinances and why.
If you decide to read those books, then ask yourself why Jesus died and what did His death do? I hope you will crack your bible open for a change. By using the Law the way you do, you are subjecting yourself to a bondage of which you do not understand.
Grace is not a cloak for sin, but the law followed in one part, must be followed in all. You nor I are capable of doing such…….
Debradoo says
Tithing is a command for the tither. For the tither .. Tithing is as much a commandment as any of the commandments of God. Therefore your argument (to tithe or not to tithe according to finances) is baseless to me.
I do not see tithing as bondage. I see tithing as a privilege and a hope. Those that have been convicted of the tithe, see the tithe as a means of obedience and with obedience comes joy and peace and a freedom that is like no other. Conviction also means that no matter the circumstances, tithing is not an option that is convenient ONLY when there is sufficient funds.
Loving thy neighbor can become bondage if one has an unruly and unjust and hateful neighbor and they do not seek God for guidance and strength to remain in love. Loving God with all our minds and all our hearts and all our strength can become bondage if we do not seek the Holy Spirit to guide us in how to love God. Anything in the Bible can become bondage. And anything can be done in the flesh too. We can pray in the flesh and read our Bibles in the flesh and praise and worship in the flesh. But, we are called to be led of the Spirit.
I have read Ephesians and Colossians, but I do not find in either book that tithing has become obsolete or is old law and no longer required.
Minister Fred Hatchett says
Then you are not reading closely. Go to the Old Testament where it tells you that tithing is an ordinance. You must search the scriptures. You are also ignoring the fact that monetary income was NEVER used to pay tithes.
But I know what this is Debradoo. You are a Charasmatic, who uses the Holy Spirit to hide your scriptural inadequacies to justify your stand. Don’t take it personal, I’ve been there. Tithing is a command for the tither… Where’d you get that from? Now you have me using contractions. Show me where tithing food and animals turned into to money. That’s about as hard as proving that humans evolved from monkeys. Let’s see if you can find that “transitional” doctrine of food and animals to money, and be as successful as the evolutionists to find a “transitional” fossil to prove their theory.
No worry, I will supply the scriptures later tonight, Lord willing.
Tony Isaac says
Debradoo,
Following your line of argument IS a very excruciating ordeal! I went back to read your previous comments and found out you never provided any verse of scripture to back up what you are saying. Forget the riddles and the rhetorical statements and provide scriptures to support what you are saying.
According to you, we do not give tithes but pay them and when we do, God gives us 90% to do with as we please. Nice argument but show us were that is written in scripture. Show us scriptures!
Debradoo says
Hello and forgive me Tony. The last thing I want to do is be excruciating. There is wayyy too much of that on this site .. lol. :D Bear with me.
quote .. According to you, we do not give tithes but pay them and when we do, God gives us 90% to do with as we please. Nice argument but show us were that is written in scripture. Show us scriptures!.. end quote
It has taken me awhile to get back to you because you are the only one that has asked me for scripture. And I wanted to gather my scripture and present my basis for believing the tithe is for today. Let me take you through the Bible as God took me through ..
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”
There are some good arguments (using scripture) that seek to convict against tithing in this dispensation of grace. But, this is the first instance we see that God keeps back something for Himself and is long before the laws of Moses. I realize this does not give solid evidence that this is a tithe. But, it does support the principle’s of tithing.
3 In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the ground, 4 and Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering, 5 but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. 6 The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.”
Here, we have an instance that does not use the word tithe but resembles very much the tithe and offering principle. Cain has done wrong with his offering and God warns him that sin is the consequence. How is this possible if there is no law? (Romans 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.) Clearly Cain has violated a law with his offering and sin is the result. (1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.) Therefore, God must have instituted laws long before He gave the laws to Moses. How does it come about that Noah is measured as a man of righteousness and all other people are unrighteous if there is no law with which to measure the righteousness or lack thereof? Noah made sacrifices and with clean animals. There is no recorded law, so what instituted clean or unclean? Genesis 7:2 (God distinguishes between clean and unclean long before the Mosaic law) and Genesis 8:20 (Noah knows the differences between clean and unclean).
18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Here is the first mention of the word ‘tithe’. Many claim that Abraham (Abram) gives from the heart. But, since tithing is so widespread throughout even the pagan nations .. It must have been instituted somewhere as a law and Abraham was paying tithes according to the law (which he followed in his heart by faith, since the laws are not recorded yet .. Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws). And ..Romans 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Since we later learn that God will require tithes, then we are sure He is the same God that required tithes of Abraham by faith. Many claim that tithing is a pagan principle, but God would never use a pagan principle and we know He later institutes and mandates and regulates a tithe. In other words, the devil copies God (adopts His tithe principle) .. God does not copy the devil. Abraham recognizes a man of God and the man of God recognizes Abraham. And blessings and the tithe are exchanged between the two. (This is later evident in Malachi 3:8-12 8 “Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. “But you ask, ‘How do we rob you?’ “In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit,” says the LORD Almighty. 12 “Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the LORD Almighty.) Here again in Malachi we see the tithe and blessings are interchangeable as with Abraham and Melchizedek. And Prov. 3:9&10 work well within this principle. Tithing is done before the law, the law simply regulates the tithe.
Hebrews 7 goes on to explain the relationship between Melchizedek and Abraham. The word emphasizes that Melchizedek did not inherit his priesthood (as did the Levites) but was made a priest by God. And according to this chapter, the Levitical priests themselves paid tithes genetically through Abraham. (LOTS of tithing being done before the laws of Moses.) Hebrews 7:8 verifies that tithes are being received even in the days of Paul’s apostleship. I have read that the word ‘spoils’ that is used in Hebrews 7:4 is not in the original greek text. But that the original greek uses ‘the choicest parts’. Now, the Levitical priesthood has been replaced by the Judah priesthood. We are connected to Abraham through Christ. Gal. 3:29 and Jesus Christ is our High Priest (rather than Melchizedek) to whom we bring our tithes.
Jacob even understood and knew that God was a blesser and that He required a tithe .. Genesis 28:20 Then Jacob made this vow: “If God will indeed be with me and protect me on this journey, and if he will provide me with food and clothing, 21 and if I return safely to my father’s home, then the Lord will certainly be my God. 22 And this memorial pillar I have set up will become a place for worshiping God, and I will present to God a tenth of everything he gives me.”
This is not Jacob promising God a tithe or bargaining with God, but Jacob believing God for protection and blessing. Jacob has learned from his ancestors that tithing and blessings are interchangeable.
If the tithe is holy to the Lord, then the offering is not. .. (Lev. 27:30 Does not say that the offering is holy.) All belongs to God. And the Bible clarifies over and over that the tithe is what we pay or render back to God. It belongs to Him. We rob God when we keep the tithe because it belongs to Him. “Tithe” is “maaser or maasrah” and is translated tenth or tenth part and in the greek is “apodekatoo” and means payment. Now, the offering is what we give from our hearts and often we are led by the Holy Spirit in the amount. The offering is ‘ainesis’ which means praise. Or ‘anathema’ which means gift. (There are other offerings as well.) The offering is what we give after we have made the tithe payment. How can we give God a gift if He owns everything? God told the Israelites in Malachi that they were robbing Him of tithes AND offerings. The offerings throughout the Bible never come before the tithe. The tithe is first, then the offerings. The offering is meaningless without the tithe first.
Deut. 12:5-6 But you are to seek the place the LORD your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.
Now this is just a simple draft of some of the revelations I have received about tithing. And I admit to not getting too caught up in the letter of the law (such as a verse by verse explanation of the tithing according to the Mosaic laws). There is much of the Word of God (especially the OT and even a lot concerning the tithes!) that I do not understand the why’s and how to’s. But, tithing according to faith, I do understand.
Tony Isaac says
…mmmhhh! Well I asked for scriptures! I actually have no idea what to say about what you have written. It is pretty much all that pro-tithers say and nothing more. From my little knowledge of scripture, I believe that the tithe actually means “A TENTH”. So are you trying to say that there were only ten trees in the Garden of Eden with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil being the tenth? In what way does this support the tithing principle? And are you indeed saying that anything in scripture that has been separated unto God can be called a tithe? Why would God choose to call some things a tithe and not others?
Unto Cain and Abel. Why do you think Cain’s offering was rejected and Abel’s was accepted? Abel brought the tithe and Cain didn’t? Scripture never says that! A quick look at the book of Hebrews tells us why Cain’s offering was rejected – it was not offered in faith and this had nothing to do with what was given. No tithes there!
Moving unto Abraham. I have no idea what to make of your explanation of Abraham’s encounter with Melchizedek. It is heavy laden with personal ideas and loads of guesswork. Anytime God wanted Abraham to do anything in scripture, God told him directly but we never see God instructing Abraham to tithe to Melchizedek. Even if God did, does that make it relevant to today’s church? Then where does that leave animal sacrifice? What about circumcision? Lest I forget, polygamy also becomes relevant and so does sacrificing our children. There is no single verse of scripture that enjoins anyone to tithe because of Abraham.
Your explanation of Hebrews shows you truly have no idea what you are talking about. From the Pentateuch, we understand that the Levites were not allowed to do any form of secular work and were the only ones allowed to partake of the holy things of the Tabernacle. As a result, the remaining 11 tribes were commanded to give a tithe to the Levites while the Levites in turn were commanded to give a tithe of the tithe they had received to the High priest. According to you, Jesus is now our High hence we give him our tithes but you forgot the scriptures that say today’s believers are priests. And if we are all priests we should be giving a tithe of tithes we receive to Jesus. The question now is who should be tithing to us?
You are really trying to dazzle us with Hebrew and Greek names. These definitions you have provided, in what context were they used? And how does the tithe being a tenth or a payment affect today’s church? Don’t confuse yourself by trying to read too much into what has been written in scripture and say God has given you a revelation. God can never contradict Himself!
In scriptures money was never given as tithes nor as offerings to God and that offerings means praise is totally irrelevant. It can mean worship for all I care but that does not make it relevant to today’s church. Are you also saying all the types of offerings God commanded the children of Israel to give are relevant today? Those were the offerings being referred to in the book of Malachi. So should we be giving sin offerings, guilt offerings, wave offerings et all?
Anyways my only advice is – go back and study this topic properly. You obviously do not understand it the way you like to think. And I think arguing with you is pretty pointless.
Russell Earl Kelly says
Where in the Bible Were Tithes Abolished?
1. WHO #1: The Levitical servants to the priests who received the first whole tithe have been abolished. See Numbers 18:21-24. Modern equivalents to the Levites are unpaid ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc.
2. WHO #2: OT priests who received a tenth of the tithe (only 1 per cent) have been abolished. See Num 18:25-28 and Neh 10:38.
3. WHAT: The definition of tithes as only food miraculously increased by God from inside His holy land of Israel has been abolished and replaced with the false unbiblical definition of income. See Leviticus 27:30-34 and 14 other texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Yet money was common in Genesis.
4. WHERE: The destination of the OT tithes first to the Levitical cities some to the Temple has been abolished. See Neh 10:37b and Mal 3:10.
5. WHEN: The time to tithe has been abolished. The Levitical tithe was paid yearly in the Levitical cities. The second festival tithe was eaten at the three festivals. The third poor tithe was kept in the home every third year. Tithes totaled 23 1/3 per cent.
6. WHY #1: The covenant which prescribed them was abolished per Heb 8:8-13; Gal 4:21-26′ 2 Cor 3:6-10.
7. WHY #2: The “commandment” for Levites and priests to collect tithes was “annulled” per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18.
8. WHY #3: The law which condemned believers has been rendered of no effect when the believer died in Christ per Romans 7:4. No law can tell a dead person what to do.
9. HOW #1: Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances per Eph 2:13. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
10. HOW $2: Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances, per Col 2:14. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
11. HOW #3: The Temple which tithes supported was abolished in AD 70. God’s temple is now within each believer per 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20.
12. HOW #4: The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in AD 70. God’s priesthood is now within every believer per 1st Peter 2:9-10.
13. HOW #5: The blessings and curses of tithing as part of the whole law have been abolished per Galatians 3:10-13.
Would you continue to send money to a church after
1. The building is destroyed?
2. The preacher has been defrocked?
3. The workers have found other jobs?
4. The members have all left?
5. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
6. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
7. You have died?