Art Of Manipulation Vol 2

Creflo Dollar: There’s something wrong with telling people ‘you better tithe or you’re gonna be cursed‘ Boy that’s still what the commandment in the law said. And if you begin to tell people to do things and try to make them feel guilty about it; and try to make them be condemned about it, and try to use their fear to get them to do stuff – That’s Manipulation”

Wow, has this guy changed his tone or what? Watch the video.

Jared Bartholomew is the author of www.tithing.com. There are over 300 articles written on research and reviews about tithing information.

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39 comments on “Art Of Manipulation Vol 2
  1. Sick of the tithe lies says:

    I also agree with the concept that it is right to financially support your local Church. On the other hand, is it fair to expect a little financial help if you have been tithing then experienced a job layoff? Most Pastors are teaching money and Prosperity will come from faithful tithing, so you better not lose your job or fall victim of some other misfortune. I can almost guarantee you that they will look upon you with suspicion an even blame, especially if you are unemployed too long. Financial lack gives their false tithe teaching a bad name when they have told you that the windows of Heaven is supposed to open with blessings you will not have room for as in the testimonies on the above clip. They won’t tell you this was to the Jews under the Old Testament Covenant and we now have a New Covenant because of the Blood of Jesus.
    In Acts the new followers of Christ, laid all the money they had at the Apostle’s feet and Barnabas sold property then gave it all to the Apostles.
    As evidence that they helped the poor with the money, it said there was not anyone lacking among them. Preachers don’t put the emphasis on that part but they sure talk about that husband and wife that God stuck dead for holding back money and lying about it. The way they teach it
    is distorting what happened by giving the impression that it was the holding back of tithes. The text never said it was their tithe payments that they held back.
    I personally have concluded that there is too much Scripture twisting and harm surrounding tithe teaching.
    Any lie will be result in resentment and confusion. The truth will eventually win out so I’m pray that Pastors will began to trust God and start teaching the truth about the right way to give!

  2. Brenda: The Apostle did not demand the early Church to pay tithes or his salary but he did say that a worker is worthy of their wages.

    Russ: The early church is never commanded to tithe because the word never occurs in such context. In Matthew 10 and Luke 10 worthy of wages is in the context of dirt-poor itinerant preachers. Worthy of wages does not mean full ministry either.

    Brenda: He also accepted financial gifts.

    Russ: Yes, but because he was poor. As a rabbi Paul had been taught that it was a sin to be paid for teaching the Word. This fact is apparent in dozens of histories of the Christian church.

    Brenda: Shame on anyone a who is a Member of a Church then refuses to financially support it with their tithes and offerings.

    Russ: I agree except for your unbiblical use of the word “tithes.” Biblical tithes from Leviticus to Luke for over 1500 years were always only food from inside Israel.

    Brenda: Even if the teaching on tithing is inaccurate for the Gentile Churches, it is still just as wrong to not support your Church. If your boss did not pay you after you worked hard all month you would be complaining and taking legal action!

    Russ: No NT gospel worker entered that calling for money. Paul even boasted that his pay was to work for free in 1 Cor 9:12-19. If a church commits to pay a pastor, then that church should keep its commitment. The burden is on the church to keep its promise. The burden is not on the pastor to preach a false doctrine of tithing to make sure he is paid.

    Brenda: There are utility bills to pay for the Church & Pastors need to eat and take care of their families too. Other organizations have membership dues, maybe this should be considered for the Church since it is a Business as well as a place to Worship.

    Russ: Don’t confuse freewill giving with tithing.

  3. Fed up with Tithe Enforcement Abuses! says:

    Mr. Kelly would you write another book, this time on the many Abuses surrounding Tithe Enforcements? This has got to be the most heinous teaching to the Modern day Church of all time. It has completely replaced the Lord as our major Source of provision and gifts with tithing payment as the main source of Blessings that come our way.
    This is modern day heresy like the Old Testament Circumcision was with the Galatians. Tithe Enforcement Abuses range from:

    Having names printed out of tithers to shame the non-tithers and produce guilt.

    Tithing lines- For Tithers only, who get a special prayer benediction by the Pastor.

    Pastors asking people to hold up their tithe envelops, for everyone to see who is paying.

    Mail outs of why aren’t you tithing?

    Asked to resign from Ministry/ Leadership,even over tithing on the net (not the gross income).

    Having to report your private W2

    Telling the Congregation to not help Tithers because they are cursed by God.

    Print outs in Mission statement that you “we will not have God robbers among us”.

    Requiring the tithe to be a Member
    Just to name a few abuses.
    I know poor people that quit going to Church because of these abusive tactics of shaming and the put-downs.

  4. anonymous says:

    The only way for people to wake up and recognize when Bible doctrine is not sound is to start reading their Bible for themselves, not the Bible counterfeit that has been revised that refers to Jesus in lower case & calls Him “a god” You can never go wrong studying the Authorized Version of the Bible when you read it and get first hand information, Any anyone that works in a Bank around money they will tell you that the way they learn the fake counterfeit money is by carefully studying the authentic. Passing counterfeit money is a federal offense and passing counterfeit Bible doctrine is worst it is a Spiritual offense against Almighty God. Some so-called men and women of God are going to have a lot of explaining to do!

  5. Vickie J says:

    I know of at least 4 people that gave their Church large sums of tithe money from inheritance and settlements then they fell on hard times times and with job loses (where were those windows of blessings pouring out?) They all went to the Church for help and were not given so much as a dollar or referral to a local food bank. Didn’t it say something about being cursed by God & losing the Favor of God for not helping the poor, fatherless and widows in the Old and New Testament Bible?

  6. Susie says:

    I had just arrived at a good friend’s house. She being a faithful Tither often talked about having to pay her tithes.
    I never discouraged her by forcing her to accept the truth that tithing was under the Old Covenant Mosaic Law – (before Jesus died for us and fulfilled the law in our place). I feel to each his own. It is not my business to tell people what to do with their own hard earned money. To do so is acting just like the tithe teachers that make demands on other people’s money. It’s up to each person to study the Word to know what the Lord does or doesn’t require of his people. However, one day I gave this friend a couple of Scriptures about what the Bible has to say about helping the poor. Helping the poor IS a major way to please the Lord and obtain his favor. She looked very surprised at my telling her that out of the blue because (unknown to me) a poor neighbor who is a single mother whose husband had split, did not have any money to buy milk for her hungry baby. My friend told the poor neighbor that she could not give her money for milk for her baby because all my friend had was her tithe money. I just happened to drop by and told my friend I felt that the Lord wanted her to know how it really hurts the heart of God when we ignore the poor. God was so enraged by mistreatment of the poor in the book of Isaiah and Jeremiah that he listed that as one of the reasons for his judgment of wrath against his people.
    My friend admitted to me that she turned down that poor neighbor and felt convicted about not helping her with at least a portion of the money. Various Pastors have people so trained and fearful that they better bring the tithe money to the Storehouse (their Church) or else, a curse will fall on them. Yet doesn’t it say the reason for bringing the tithe is so there will be FOOD in the Storehouse? Food to feed the poor?
    See how illogical they have people thinking- when they have people afraid to help the poor because it is so-called tithe money to pay God who was asking for the tithe (in the Old Testament) to feed the poor in the first place!

    James 1:27 ” Pure religion undefiled before God is this, to visit (help) the fatherless and widows in their affliction and to keep yourself unspotted from the world.”

    Proverbs 19:17 “When you give to the poor it is like lending to the Lord and the Lord will pay you back”.

  7. Nick Robinson says:

    Just too all sorry this is a bit long, please remember that the law was the basic requirements that God gave to man/Jews. It was also a way that enabled Jesus not to be born into sin. If he had been born 200 miles North, East or West the pagan practices would have resulted in him being born into sin. The law gave temporally cleansing of sin if it were practiced appropriately. This was also to show Gods standards and then and only then do we realise how far from those standards and God we are and that a saviour is most definitely needed. So as Christians we don’t follow the law, yes that is true but, we should be fulfilling the law with the mind of Christ through the Holy Spirit. Just as Jesus said, “If a solder asks you to walk with him a mile then you should go two, if a person takes you to court for your coat then you should give him your over coat” (paraphrasing), etc, this is Jesus telling his followers to go beyond the law because it is your new person as a Christian to act in this way to be a son of God, Jesus said , “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven”.
    (Some imply that when Jesus said on the cross “it is finished”, then the law was done away with, no it’s not, has Haven or Earth passed away? No of course not. Yes we don’t follow the law but, it’s a standard to know that we have to surpass as Jesus said and the Jews tried to do this for a long long time and could not fulfil the law so how do we surpass it? With the help of the Holy Spirit.
    So, the law said to give 10% so what did the disciples do in the New Testament after this? They sold all they had and gave so not one person was lacking anything. This is not about judging pastors, preachers or Christians, that is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. No this is about commitment to God and to love each other. Be very careful of teachings that cause distension between brothers and remember what the Lord said, “you will know my disciples by their love for one another”. Listen to God and he will tell you what to give and who to give it too.
    Jesus is quite capable of making his Church holy and spotless in time for his coming, just learn from the Holy Spirit and trust God by your Obedience to him. Jesus said when asked who will enter the kingdom, “the deciding factor will be those who hear my father’s voice and LEARN from him”. I don’t think some of the language and words spoken here on these comments are appropriate to be coming from Christians. Just take all your thoughts to God because your body and fleshy thinking are still in a fallen state and must be renewed. That’s why not one body of any Christian on earth past or present is getting into heaven, we are given a new body as it says in scripture because this one is corrupted beyond repair and so is our heart. This is why I say, take all your thoughts to God. Don’t judge, just live a life that reflects Jesus and that will send enough conviction to all around you that are not living this way and this will help them to change their ways instead of getting into a who is the worst Christian argument. “By what measure you judge, by that measure you will be judged”. That’s what happens when we Judge others, they simply see our faults and judge us. Look past this and live to God not to the right or wrong of the flesh. And if you don’t give to your church what do you think will happen to that church? It will be closed down and what then? We live in a society that has a monetary model. So tithes or offerings are needed to help keep churches open in this monetary society which helps people that are on the lowest ebb of their life and come to know the Lord. Where would you be if people stopped helping the church that you were saved in? Tithing is good stewardship because it helps the pastor of the church to plan ahead because he knows a ball park figures for the months ahead and then knows who the church can help. It might be you that needs that help one day and your opinion will be changed then. If you live or give beyond your means then that is not good stewardship and you can expect difficulty. Some of the testimonies talk about this but that mostly down to not listening to God. It’s not a legal requirement for Christians but, it sure shows our love for one another. My friend there are many good churches and pastors out there that do so much good with the kindness of peoples giving and yes there are those that take take take . God shows us the truth but we have to ask questions and not jump to conclusions. Don’t judge, if people don’t listen to God then they will learn to through their mistakes and then begin to inquire of the Lord.
    I am saying fulfil the law, but don’t be under it.

  8. Nick Robinson says:

    By the way, I left a test for you to back up what I said about the measure you judge it will be used by that same measure to judge you. Did you feel the judging force rise up in you when I typed “some of the language on these comments is not appropriate to be coming from Christians”???

  9. Nick Robinson says:

    One more comment, the law says not to test the Lord your God. When it comes to tithing, God says test me on this. God says to TEST him on this. Some people have said that the rich don’t tithe and yet they are wealthy but I am sure that in the days that Moses was given the law, there were Kings and people that were extremely wealthy. That sort of thing has nothing to do with Gods people or his commands. Also, the commodity was mostly seed and food stuffs that has changed today. Going back to people saying that we are not under the law so that means we don’t have to tithe, well the law said Thou shall not murder. Are we then free to murder? Or do the opposite of any other law? Of course not, this is why it still stands to be fulfilled. The laws of our lands in the west that you have to follow are based on the law of Moses. I’d like you to tell a judge that he can’t sentence you because you say you’re not under the law. I know this is the outer fringes of the topic but people are pedantic with the details so it’s in the scope of the discussion. This is just an add on to my main points in my large comment before. The discussion will endeavour to continue but Jesus has the last say on biblical subjects not any person’s opinion. .

  10. Nick,
    thanks for your comments. here’s my response

    When Jesus said go the extra mile or give your 2nd coat was he advocating the law as a minimum standard, or was he advocating the principle of grace as the standard? NT grace does not use the law as its guide.

    What the disciples did in the New Testament was called ‘Spirit-led’. i don’t understand why people accuse me of being greedy, when i clearly wish to use the early apostolic model of sacrificial giving.

    If tithing helps the pastor, keeps the doors open, and spreads the gospel; then why couldn’t Spirit-led giving do the same? Is there some restriction on the Spirit of God?

    When God said, ‘do not test Me’, its translation means do not ‘tempt’ me with your WRONG actions. When God said ‘test Me’ in Malachi, the translation means to test God’s promises with the RIGHT actions. You wake up everyday and put God’s promises to the test. The act of faith alone is a test to God’s promises.

  11. Nick Robinson says:

    In response to your comment, Jesus was always using the law as his guide even when Satan tried to tempt him, he used the law to overcome Satans attack in the wilderness. Jesus said “It is written, do not put the Lord your God to the test!” God says in His written word in numerous places and in the context I am advocating here, “do not test the Lord your God”, we cannot tempt God he is beyond temptation, that’s how Jesus overcame that particular incident with Satan.
    Jesus was showing the disciples how to act in grace when he talked about going the extra mile, of course he was but, he referred to it as fulfilling the law when he said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven”.
    The law is not abolished, it has been fulfilled by Jesus and if Jesus is in you through the Holy Spirit then you to are able, through that same Spirit to fulfill the law. Jesus also spoke about aiming higher than the law as it was given to Moses when he said, “it is written, anyone who commits adultery is to be stoned but, I say if a man looks at another woman with lust he has already committed adultery in his heart”. This is Jesus showing that the standard he was upholding was the completeness of the Law, the heavenly standard. We cannot show grace without the Holy Spirit to the standard Jesus is talking about. It has been proven that by mans efforts we cannot become the new creation which is the standard to enter the Kingdom of God.
    If this was so, every single Jewish person from the Old Testament that practiced the Law until the day the temple was destroyed would have earned their salvation but, even they knew they required a savior because they knew that you can outwardly act out grace but inwardly you have not changed. If that was the answer to entering the Kingdom of God then we would have not needed Jesus to have died on the cross because even though our mind and heart were hostile to Gods holy and high ways, we would just act out the actions of grace or the law which ever you choose and enter Gods kingdom. The parable of the great banquet is a classical example of this. There is a man who is not dressed correctly for the event and when asked why, he has no answer and is thrown out. Grace??? The clothes represent our mind and our heart attitude to God. This man acted out his course but came to nothing with his own ways of doing things. It was too late, like the ten virgins the 5 with no oil found it was too late. Grace was no more at that point, just as in the parable of the talents there was no more grace for those who knew the truth yet did their own thing by the will of their sinful flesh. It’s scary and hard to comprehend, but God has a standard that must uphold his holy name.

    Yes I agree the disciples were spirit led when they were giving their all so no one lacked but, in this action they were fulfilling the law better than the Pharisees and the teachers of the law and this was only accomplished through the direction and the paradigm shift of their hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit by submitting their lives to God.
    The Holy Spirit will not work outside of the law of God, OF GOD. But the Holy Spirit will fulfill the law if we allow it to. To be a son of God is much more than obeying the Law of Moses, its being like Jesus his first son, sacrificing all to God for the Good of those who will be saved and Glorify God. In Malachi, the promise followed the instruction which was to tithe under the law but, how much more so to those whose sin has been wiped away forever? As the Lord has shown me, if the flesh has a course laid out to follow like a road map, for instance, the Law of Moses, the flesh will jump to the challenge but sin in that same flesh will also jump to the challenge to inhibit the good thoughts and intentions of our flesh. (Romans and I also presume your own experience).
    If you picture a street light shining down in a very dark place, it’s the only light around so you crawl through the dark till you get to the safety of that light where there are others. That light is shining down on you and the others and you can see how the crawling around in the dark has blemished each and everyone’s clothing and skin with dirt (sin). So now and again someone will say “you have dirt on your face, wipe it off, it offends me”, the other will say you have dirt on your shirt, you wipe that off and don’t speak to me that way”, and on it goes under this small cone of light shining down. (the mite and the plank in the eye).
    That is like the law given to Moses it exposes the sin of a person’s heart and shows us that we need something more it does not bring us closer to God because that type of light is fixed, working perfectly but fixed. If a person were to step out of that light into the dark trusting Jesus and his perfect work, being brave because far away, up in the distance there is a wonderful shining place where God is, that they have been given the grace to notice, they would be given a light that shines in front of them to show the way and not on them showing there dirt (sin). This light is Jesus but, he is light none the less as is the law, except the way in which the light is used is different from the latter. It’s on this walk to that shining place that we become clean by the wind and fiery trials that gets rid of our stumbling in the dark because we have faith in this new light and the direction in which it is taking us.
    We can’t see any further ahead than the light is revealing so our flesh has to stay in the back seat while the Holy Spirit leads. This requires trust in the Lord and a willingness to go through the baptism of fire he has intended for us just like Jesus had to for 40 days in the wilderness but, Jesus came out full of power. It’s not easy as Jesus said to his disciples, “you must work hard to enter”. By that he means letting go of who you think you are and becoming the new person God wants you to be by letting go and trusting him. With the sin so powerfully embed in our flesh we must work hard to do this with every thought and action.
    Jesus did use the Law to rebuke satan, to explain the idea that it’s not just acting out a sin physically but also mentally that is a sin (the full requirements of God for us) and to explain that grace is the enabling to live a life higher than the one we know, that is like the life and works of Jesus, showing love, kindness, sacrifice etc directed by the Holy Spirit not our will. Adam and Eves biggest sin was to choose independence from God by doing their own thing. God has given a way back to him through his grace.
    Sorry for the very longwinded reply.
    By the way, if you think I have written something implying you are a greedy person I haven’t, sorry for any misunderstanding. I dare not become entangled to distinguish the validity of a person’s testimony in case of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Some things are not as obvious as they seem. People of God have to listen to God which will prevent them from being robbed. Are you awake LOL?

  12. Nick,
    You need to get a concordance and a bible and read the context of tempting or testing God everywhere in the bible, and tell how the test in Malachi 3 has any relation to what God actually commanded.

    Exodus 17:7, Deuteronomy 6:16, Psalm 78:18 – 31, Isaiah 7:10 – 12, Matthew 4:7, Luke 4:12, Acts 15:10, 1 Corinthians 10:9

    God’s standards are not higher in the New Testament. ‘Do not hate’, ‘do not lust’, have been eternal laws, and will stay eternal laws.

    There is no other practice in the new testament that compares with tithing. We aren’t required to give 10% of our time. We aren’t required to sing a certain amount of songs. We aren’t required to save a certain amount of souls. Neither are we required to pray a certain amount of times a day. We aren’t required to preach a certain amount of sermons, or help a certain amount of homeless people. We aren’t even required to give a certain amount of offerings above the tithe.

    Out of all the functional attributes that the old testment temple and worship system created, the only standard that we adopted was how much we are to donate to “God’s”(quote on quote) work.

    We don’t have priests, and we don’t have Levites. We don’t have a temple, and we don’t have storehouses.

    We do have the holy Spirit, and the spiritual gifts. We are a new creature, and adopted sons. We are under grace and under a new covenant.

    There is no command to continue tithing, or a command to change it.

  13. Nick Robinson: please remember that the law was the basic requirements that God gave to man/Jews.

    Russ: ??? Does this mean that you are using the word “law” to refer to the “inner law of conscience and nature” and not the Ten Commandments or the Pentateuch per Romans 1:18-20 and 2:14-16???

    Nick: It was also a way that enabled Jesus not to be born into sin. If he had been born 200 miles North, East or West the pagan practices would have resulted in him being born into sin.

    Russ: Gibberish. Even those living North, East and West of Judea were born into sin. There is a difference between being born “into sin” and being “a sinner.”

    Nick: The law gave temporally cleansing of sin if it were practiced appropriately. This was also to show Gods standards and then and only then do we realize how far from those standards and God we are and that a saviour is most definitely needed.

    Russ: You need to start all over again and define the way you are using the word “law.” (1) moral?, (2) Ten Commandments? (3) Pentateuch? (4) Old Testament or (5) other (specify).

    Nick: So as Christians we don’t follow the law, yes that is true but, we should be fulfilling the law with the mind of Christ through the Holy Spirit.

    Russ: “Follow” what “law”? The “law of the Spirit of life in Christ” in Romans 8:2 is the law of love written in the heart of believers who have been born again and are a new creation indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

    Nick: Just as Jesus said, “If a solder asks you to walk with him a mile then you should go two, if a person takes you to court for your coat then you should give him your over coat” (paraphrasing), etc, this is Jesus telling his followers to go beyond the law because it is your new person as a Christian to act in this way to be a son of God,

    Russ: O. K. So you are using the word “law” to mean “the Pentateuch.”

    Nick: Jesus said , “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven”.

    Russ: Now you are using the word “law” to refer to the Pentateuch and the Prophets. That means all of the law including commandments, statutes and judgments as illustrated in Matthew 5:19-48.

    Nick: (Some imply that when Jesus said on the cross “it is finished”, then the law was done away with, no it’s not, has Heaven or Earth passed away? No of course not.

    Russ: My head is swimming. Has the righteousness of the law been totally fulfilled in Christ? Yes, yes, yes. Does the book of Matthew point out again and again how Christ fulfilled the law? Yes, yes, yes. Does Hebrews 8:13 say that the Old Covenant “vanished”? Does Ephesians 2:15 say that the “law of commandments contained in ordinances” has bee “abolished”? Does Colossians 2:14 say that the “handwriting or ordinances” has been “blotted out”? Does Hebrews 7:18 say that the “commandment going before” of tithing from 7:5 has been “annulled” per 7:12, 18? Does Numbers 18 not call tithing an “ordinance” or “statute” of the law?

    Nick: Yes we don’t follow the law but, it’s a standard to know that we have to surpass as

    Russ: If the entire law of Moses which all of its commandments, statutes and judgments is still a “standard” then why aren’t all Christians required to obey all 600 commandments of it per Mt 5:19?

    Nick: Jesus said and the Jews tried to do this for a long long time and could not fulfil the law so how do we surpass it? With the help of the Holy Spirit.

    Russ: The New Covenant is not the Old Covenant reworked. It is an entirely different and new covenant.

    Nick: So, the law said to give 10% so what did the disciples do in the New Testament after this?

    Russ: The law defined tithes as only food from inside Israel. The law only required food producers who lived inside Israel to tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers. There is absolutely no texts in the New Testament for the church to tithe after Calvary. There was no universal Old Covenant standard and the assumption that everybody was required to begin at 10% is false.

    Nick: They sold all they had and gave so not one person was lacking anything. This is not about judging pastors, preachers or Christians, that is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. No this is about commitment to God and to love each other.

    Russ: The church in Acts 2 and 4 gave sacrificial freewill offerings and needed support as soon as their possessions were depleted. They continued to support the Temple system in Acts 2:26; chapter 15 and chapter 21, especially 21:20. They never stopped giving tithes to the Temple.

    Nick: Be very careful of teachings that cause dissension between brothers and remember what the Lord said, “you will know my disciples by their love for one another”.

    Russ: I suppose you would tell the same ting to Jesus, Peter and Paul not to upset the false teachers of the scribes and Pharisees.

    Nick: Listen to God and he will tell you what to give and who to give it too.

    Russ: Listen to God as He speaks through His Word.

    Nick: Jesus is quite capable of making his Church holy and spotless in time for his coming, just learn from the Holy Spirit and trust God by your Obedience to him.

    Russ: In other words, shut up and be quiet. Do not question your pastor and do not activate your own priesthood. If you cannot rebuke us from God’s Word, you just tell us to shut up.

  14. Nick Robinson: When it comes to tithing, God says test me on this.

    Russ: The whole law was a test –not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. You cannot tithe and break any of the other 600+ commands and STILL expect God to bless you. It does not work that way. God cannot and does not bless Christians because of obedience to annulled Old Covenant laws. If you are under the New Covenant you will have to be blessed under New Covenant stipulations. Why is that so difficult to understand?

    Nick: God says to TEST him on this.

    Russ: Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    Nick: Some people have said that the rich don’t tithe and yet they are wealthy but I am sure that in the days that Moses was given the law, there were Kings and people that were extremely wealthy. That sort of thing has nothing to do with Gods people or his commands.

    Russ: How about TODAY’S filthy rich atheists, agnostics and Muslim sheiks today? Why aren’t the tens of thousands of ghetto dwellers who have been tithing for generations blessed?

    Nick: Also, the commodity was mostly seed and food stuffs that has changed today.

    Russ: Texts please. Where has this been changed? Although money was very common even in Genesis and essential for early sanctuary worship, money was never included in tithing for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke/

    Nick: Going back to people saying that we are not under the law so that means we don’t have to tithe, well the law said Thou shall not murder. Are we then free to murder? Or do the opposite of any other law? Of course not, this is why it still stands to be fulfilled.

    Russ: You are totally confused up because you cannot consistently define the way you use the word “law.” According to Matthew 5:19-48, if you are “under the law,” then you are still under the “whole law” of 600+ commands, statutes and judgments. The Old Covenant was never commanded to Gentiles and tithes were never used to send missionaries to us Gentiles. The New Covenant law has restated the eternal moral part of the Old Covenant in terms of new creations in Christ. We do not murder (not because the law says ‘thou shalt not’) but because our characters have changed.

    Nick: The laws of our lands in the west that you have to follow are based on the law of Moses.

    Russ: You bounce back and forth from using “law” to mean “Ten Commandments” to meaning “the whole law of Moses.”

    Nick: I’d like you to tell a judge that he can’t sentence you because you say you’re not under the law.

    Russ: Yes, I can tell a judge that I am not under the Old Covenant law. I’d like you to tell a judge that he cannot sentence you because you are supposed to be judged by the laws of England. When the USA signed the Declaration of Independence, it immediately was free from English law –both good and bad.

    Nick: Jesus has the last say on biblical subjects not any person’s opinion.

    Russ: Jesus was born under the jurisdiction of the law in order to redeem those Hebrews under the law. In the process he redeemed us also. If Jesus has the last say, then all of us need to keep all of the law with its commandments, statutes and judgments. But Jesus did not tell the Gentiles he healed to show themselves to the priests and he did not tell his Gentile disciples to pay tithes to the Temple system.

  15. Nick Robinson: Jesus was always using the law as his guide

    Russ: Of course he did. Galatians 4:4 says that he came under the (full jurisdiction of) the law in order to redeem those (Hebrews) under the law. He would have been sinning if he did not obey all of the law. You are not reading Jesus through the eyes of the New Covenant which began at Calvary.

    Nick: Jesus was showing the disciples how to act in grace when he talked about going the extra mile

    Russ: Jesus was showing his Jewish disciples how it would be when God’s will is law during the kingdom age and how the moral law should now lead us to go beyond the letter of the written law.

    Nick: … of course he was but, he referred to it as fulfilling the law when he said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven”.

    Russ: Notice that the “law” in context of 5:19-48 is the whole law of commandments, statutes and judgments.

    Nick: The law is not abolished, it has been fulfilled by Jesus and if Jesus is in you through the Holy Spirit then you to are able, through that same Spirit to fulfill the law.

    Russ: You are still confusing the law of Moses and the royal law of love in the New Covenant. They are not the same thing. Romans 8:1-2. You are doing all of this to retain tithing and reject all of the other equal laws of the Old Covenant. Why don’t you insist on retaining all of them for the same reasons?

    Nick: Jesus also spoke about aiming higher than the law as it was given to Moses … This is Jesus showing that the standard he was upholding was the completeness of the Law, the heavenly standard.

    Russ: The heavenly standard is the moral character of God and that has existed from eternity past. I doubt that God has a copy of the Ten Commandments or the Law of Moses hanging on his living room wall from all eternity.

    Nick: We cannot show grace without the Holy Spirit to the standard Jesus is talking about.

    Russ: What is the goal of your long diatribe which follows here? You are trying to come in through the back door by implying that tithing was an eternal moral standard. The trick will not work. The whole purpose of your long argument is to support tithing.

    Nick: It’s scary and hard to comprehend, but God has a standard that must uphold his holy name.

    Russ: And the tithe was never universal even within Israel. It always only applied to food producers who only lived inside Israel. Jesus did not tithe; he gave sacrificial freewill offerings.

    Nick: Yes I agree the disciples were spirit led when they were giving their all so no one lacked but, in this action they were fulfilling the law better than the Pharisees and the teachers of the law and this was only accomplished through the direction and the paradigm shift of their hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit by submitting their lives to God.

    Russ: Yes, they were fulfilling the spirit of the law of love by sacrificial freewill giving. They were not tithing to church leaders. They were still financially supporting the Jewish Temple system per Acts 2:46; chapter 15 and chapter 21, especially 21:20.

    Nick: The Holy Spirit will not work outside of the law of God, OF GOD.

    Russ: The Law of God for New Covenant believers is NOT the Old Covenant law! What in the world is wrong with you? Why cannot you see that?

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    Nick: But the Holy Spirit will fulfill the law if we allow it to. To be a son of God is much more than obeying the Law of Moses …

    Russ: Babylon-confusion of two laws.

    Nick: … This light is Jesus but, he is light none the less as is the law, except the way in which the light is used is different from the latter.

    Russ: Wrong. Jesus is now THE way, THE truth and THE light (Jn 14:6). Jesus has REPLACED the Law as God’s standard of righteous revelation of Himself to Israel and now reveals Himself to all mankind. Sin is NOW reflected from the character of Jesus and not from the law per Romans 3:21; John 16:8-9 and 2 Cor 3:18.

    Nick: Jesus did use the Law to rebuke Satan

    Russ: Because Satan used the Law to tempt him. Nick, you seem to have a warm heart and genuine love for Jesus, but you are confused about the difference between the old and new covenant the fact that Jesus is now God’s standard, not the law.

  16. Nick Robinson says:

    That was well responded too. You’re not getting what I am saying even though I typed it about ten different ways. You have rationalized things to mean stuff that I never meant them to mean effectively building an argument for yourself which, I never gave to you in the first place. You don’t seem to understand that I am agreeing with most of what you are saying. It’s plain to me that the law is not abolished but fulfilled by Jesus so that we can now boldly approach God and ask for forgiveness and receive it. ( As I said quoting Jesus himself, “heaven and Earth will pass away before the Law is” and that has not happened yet can you see that?) That is grace. Yes I do know that you cannot break one law and yet believe that you are ok with the rest of the law. Peter, himself went back to practicing the law when he thought that the Jews were going to kill him once he entered Jerusalem. What does that say, (not a lot for Peter at that particular time or does it?) now if we cannot break one law without breaking all the rest then why did the disciples give the gentiles a small amount of laws to follow? Such as, not to eat meat with the blood in it, not to have sex before marriage etc? They are laws are they not, are you now putting yourself above those disciples??
    The law has not gone it stands to judge all those that never received the faith of Jesus. We are not under it I agree with you yet we fulfill it if we live according to the spirit. There are practical reasons for tithing and I have mentioned them, how people have been really helped and the churches able to stay open to continue to help others. Are you part of a church? We have to continue to give out of the love that is in our hearts if it is there.
    You call it offerings or sacrifice or Spirit led giving If you are filled with the Holy Spirit you cannot but give to your fellow brother or sister when they are in need, surly you see this? If everyone tithed say 10% in the church other people would not have to give so much more when they see a need because the calmative sum from the tithing would be far more than enough to help others.
    It is not the sole reasonability of the pastor to come up with the money to help and run the church as a Christian establishment helping the needy. God’s word says,” what is true religion, those that help the orphans and widows”.
    Can you really sit there and say “I am not tithing “, when in front of your face, every single day there is such a need? It is so practical. The churches in England, here use tithes to totally help the needy, the pastors nearly always have a full time job and don’t take a penny from the tithing. In this way people that are hungry receive shopping vouchers and people who are being evicted have their rent paid because of some bad circumstance and the list goes on.
    Don’t you think it’s important to tithe for the practical reasons as I’ve mentioned?? I’ve not experienced the dangers you speak of with tithing in America but, it surly is not the case that all churches horde the money and use it wrongly is it?? God tells me to tithe not my pastor, everyone I know as a Christian tithes when they can, not out of tradition but because God is laying it on their heart and Spirit, not out of peer pressure or forcefulness but because there is a definite need and because we love our church not the building but the function it provides and we want to continue to meet their. It’s so special to meet together and assist each other. Churches are not gyms or clubs were they can get away with charging 20 pound or 40 dollars a month; people are just not interested in God enough to pay that otherwise that would be a solution. Then there would also be another agenda to contend for with that idea. So instead of tithing, would you pay a subscription fee? I am presuming the answer would be no because you are offended at paying a tithe. How much do we care for our God and his church?
    I am not sitting at my computer trying to win an argument but what I do have to say is what is coming from my heart and the Holy Spirit, and that is out of love and not what’s right or wrong, ( that is the way of the world as Adam and Eve partook from the tree of knowledge, right and wrong, good and evil) As a Christian we are to come from a different tree, the one that is guarded by the flaming sword and the cherubim’s, as it states in genesis. Did you know that Jesus is the flaming sword, the protector of that tree of eternal life? Those all who wish to receive eternal life have to go by him and the sword turns every way to guard the tree, there is no way around to get to it. No we are not to stop giving when the Lord puts it on our heart. The lord tells many people to tithe and if the Lord tells you to do it then, you must do it. If the Lord tells you not to tithe then you must not tithe. It’s down to God because on that day the Lord may well say, “Why did you not give when I told you to?” you cannot say “A man on an internet site convinced me it was wrong”. Or one person said this or a pastor said that. It’s going to be of no use to you.
    We are not under the law, yes, yes, and yes I know but, because I am Spirit filled, God has a relationship with me and tells me to tithe most of the time and sometimes to send my money to an orphanage in Africa, other times to give it to a complete stranger. I don’t know the effect my obedience will have but I do know I am in the will of God and feel the compassion he has for others. If people want to tithe out of kindness or because they are a trying to look good then that is up to them, they have their reward. If God is telling a person to tithe then he is storing up treasure in Heaven through his obedience not the act of tithing its self. Hope, faith and love (one translation says), and out of these love is the greatest. I do not seek the wealth that God could possibly give, I seek his glorifying power that sets me free from this world and untangles me from the sin in other people’s lives and my own. I cannot say anything more to your response but I do pray that you hear God and so do the others that read and visit this site. In the end it’s not my words or yours but Gods that will condemn you or grant you eternal life, so listen to him. Don’t hold any options that others have given you except those from God. His ways are far higher than ours.
    Bless you and take care of yourself.
    I have to get my kids ready for bed.

  17. Nick Robinson: You’re not getting what I am saying even though I typed it about ten different ways.

    Russ: Either I am too stupid to get it or else you have not made yourself clear. Am I the only one on this blog that is missing your agreement with me?

    Nick: “Heaven and Earth will pass away before the Law is” and that has not happened yet can you see that?

    Russ: Read the whole text Matt 5:18 “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

    You ask the wrong question. The correct question is “Has all been fulfilled?”

    Jesus said in Luke 24:44 “And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled , which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”

    All has been fulfilled. That is exactly why we are not under ANY of the whole law! That is why the law, as a standard of righteousness for the Hebrews, has been blotted out, annulled, nailed to the cross and has vanished. It sits in the yard as a school bus which has fulfilled its purpose for 12 years and reminds us of the past. It exists as a shadow which led to Christ.

    Nick: Peter, himself went back to practicing the law

    Russ: Paul called that “witchcraft” in Galatians 3:1. What is your motive? You still want to resurrect tithing!

    Nick: why did the disciples give the gentiles a small amount of laws to follow?

    Russ: The laws given to the Gentiles in Acts 15 and 21 related to pagan ritual.

    Nick: The law has not gone it stands to judge all those that never received the faith of Jesus.

    Russ: No. Read John 16:8-9. How does this relate to Christian tithing? Your logic evades me.

    Nick: We are not under it I agree with you yet we fulfill it if we live according to the spirit.

    Russ: You are confusing the whole Law of Moses with the New Covenant law of the Spirit of life in Christ per Romans 8:1-2.

    Nick: There are practical reasons for tithing

    Russ: You are digging up a dead law (Heb 7:18) and trying to force it onto a person who is dead to the law per Romans 7:4. The law cannot tell a dead person (me) what to do.

    Nick: … and I have mentioned them, how people have been really helped and the churches able to stay open to continue to help others.

    Russ: Cannot this be true of freewill, generous, sacrificial offerings? Why do you have to call it “tithing” when it is not? How much of the church-organization’s total budget really goes to the poor? It is wrong to collect money under one pretense and dispense it under another.

    Nick: If everyone tithed say 10% in the church other people would not have to give so much more when they see a need because the cumulative sum from the tithing would be far more than enough to help others.

    Russ: Back to tithing. Why have you chosen tithing and ignored most of the other 600+ commands of the law? Have you ever read 1st Timothy 5:8? A Christian’s first responsibility is to buy medicine and essential food and shelter for his/her family. It is stealing from your family to give that money to the church first as a (false) firstfruit and suffer the pain from no medicine and food.

    Nick: It is not the sole reasonability of the pastor to come up with the money to help and run the church as a Christian establishment helping the needy.

    Russ: It is not taught in God’s Word that pastors must be full-time paid ministers either. Too much is wasted on buildings and salaries.

    Nick: God’s word says,” what is true religion, those that help the orphans and widows”.
    Can you really sit there and say “I am not tithing” when in front of your face, every single day there is such a need?

    Russ: Replace the word “tithing” with “sacrificial giving” and I would agree with you.

    Nick: It is so practical.

    Russ: Levitical tithing is cold hard law and was required from food producers inside Israel whether they were practical or joyful. Simply stating something to be Bible-truth is not good enough. There must be texts in context.

    Nick: The churches in England, here use tithes to totally help the needy, the pastors nearly always have a full time job and don’t take a penny from the tithing.

    Russ: I highly commend the pastors for working full time jobs. Very few in the USA do that today. You have totally ignored the first Levitical tithe which was designated to feed the Levites and priests. You have also totally ignored the second festival tithe which was eaten in the streets of Jerusalem. What you are calling a “tithe” is really a New Covenant form of freewill giving. Why not call it that?

    Nick: In this way people that are hungry receive shopping vouchers and people who are being evicted have their rent paid because of some bad circumstance and the list goes on. Don’t you think it’s important to tithe for the practical reasons as I’ve mentioned??

    Russ: It is important to give generous, sacrificial freewill offerings “for the practical reasons mentioned.”

    Nick: I’ve not experienced the dangers you speak of with tithing in America but, it surly is not the case that all churches horde the money and use it wrongly is it??

    Russ: In the USA it is most common that money in the churches is being wasted on high salaries, gymnasiums, bowling alleys and coffee shops in mega churches which talk so much about tithing.

    Nick: God tells me to tithe not my pastor, everyone I know as a Christian tithes when they can, not out of tradition but because God is laying it on their heart and Spirit, not out of peer pressure or forcefulness but because there is a definite need and because we love our church not the building but the function it provides and we want to continue to meet there. It’s so special to meet together and assist each other.

    Russ: Just do not call it “tithing” because it is not. You are a New Covenant Christian who should be using New Covenant terminology.

    Nick: So instead of tithing, would you pay a subscription fee? I am presuming the answer would be no because you are offended at paying a tithe. How much do we care for our God and his church?

    Russ: Instead of tithing, preach solid New Covenant giving principles which have the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

    Point #1 of my Essay on page one:
    Christians are commanded to give freely, sacrificially, generously, regularly, joyfully and with the motivation of love for God and man. The following New Covenant free-will principles are found in Second Corinthians, chapters 8 and 9: (1) Giving is a “grace.” These chapters use the Greek word for “grace” eight times in reference to helping poor saints. (2) Give yourself to God first (8:5). (3) Give yourself to knowing God’s will (8:5). (4) Give in response to Christ’s gift (8:9; 9:15). (5) Give out of a sincere desire (8:8, 10, 12; 9:7). (6) Do not give because of any commandment (8:8, 10; 9:7). (7) Give beyond your ability (8:3, 11-12). (8) Give to produce equality. This means that those who have more should give more in order to make up for the inability of those who cannot afford to give as much (8:12-14). (9) Give joyfully (8:2). (10) Give because you are growing spiritually (8:3-4, 7). (11) Give because you want to continue growing spiritually (9:8, 10-11). (12) Give because you are hearing the gospel preached (9:13).

    Nick:… The lord tells many people to tithe and if the Lord tells you to do it then, you must do it.

    Russ: Here we go again. The Lord has never told a single Christian this side of Calvary to tithe in the New Covenant. And the Lord never told “tithe-recipients” to forfeit property ownership and kill anybody who dares to worship God directly per Numbers 18.

    Nick: If the Lord tells you not to tithe then you must not tithe.

    Russ: The Lord tells us to give even beyond out ability sometimes. The equality principle of 2nd Cor 8:12-14 means that many should give more than 10% but it also means that many are giving sacrificially even though giving less than 10%. God still loves all of us.

    Nick: We are not under the law, yes, yes, and yes I know but, because I am Spirit filled, God has a relationship with me and tells me to tithe most of the time …

    Russ: ”Because I am Spirit filled, God has a relationship with me” — He tells me to give freewill, generous, sacrificially without regard to a set percentage.

    Nick: I do know I am in the will of God and feel the compassion he has for others.

    Russ: Ditto.

    Nick: If God is telling a person to tithe then he is storing up treasure in Heaven through his obedience not the act of tithing its self.

    Russ: No legitimate New Covenant texts. The Old Covenant has “vanished” for me according to Hebrews 8:13.

    Nick: In the end it’s not my words or yours but Gods that will condemn you or grant you eternal life, so listen to him. Don’t hold any options that others have given you except those from God. His ways are far higher than ours. Bless you and take care of yourself.
    I have to get my kids ready for bed.

    Russ: Amen. Sleep well, my friend.

  18. Joey says:

    WOW! That Russ Kelly is one smart dude! He is on point!I need his book and materials and will check it out as soon my payday comes!

  19. Nick Robinson says:

    Hello again, Russ. Through no small debate did the disciples come to their conclusions at times. Who knows how heavy that got when the debate got going? A guy I love called Howard Morgan, who is a messianic Jew, said that unless Christians are willing to smash scriptures together like rocks were there seems to be a controversy or contradiction then we will never know what comes out. People find it hard these days to do that without getting upset instead of thinking about the end game involved. It was good to do this with you. I see what you are saying about tithing but those problems don’t exist here in the UK as far as my knowledge is concerned. I know that people here don’t see tithing as a law to follow just as a practical way to help each other (and if that worked in the past to help feed the priest and poor then it came from God so it will work now and it does when done correctly no matter what name you give it), and as I said the pastors don’t take a penny from it. It does your head in when I call this tithing but the reason why is because it’s giving 10% of your income so that is tithing but not through following the law. It’s through caring and the practicality of the thing for the organization of the community’s agendas, ha; I can almost guess what you’re going to say, LOL
    No one is going to go to hell that has accepted Jesus and been baptized in water and spirit because they give in this way. Call it what you like, tithing, sacrificial giving, and New Testament heart whatever, just as long as the money given goes to the right place, where it is needed.

    God Bless

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