I’m just throwing this question out there cause I’m not sure what to conclude about it myself. When church doors close because of financial hardship is it good or bad? I know some of you are thinking immediately that its bad. But think about it. That’s one less mortgage bill that has to be paid and that’s more money towards the poor, and other needs.
Let’s face it, giving statistics state that 85% of what a church brings in is spent on the internal operation of the church. Let’s put this in perspective. If Paul was called to minister to the gentiles but he spent 85% of his time with the Jews, how effective would Paul’s ministry be? Let’s put this another way, if God calls us to go and teach all nations, and seek and save the lost, but we spend 85% of our resources on ourselves, how effective can we be? The truth of the matter is that giving statistics state that the church only spends 3% on directly ministering to the unsaved.
Let’s ask the question again, if only 3% of a church’s resources are going towards ministering to the unsaved is it good or bad that a church closing its doors frees up the other 97%?
Aaron says
Closing churches are bad – even if only 3% reaches unsaved (though i doubt that number bcoz 90% of church goers are mostly sunday – savers) and closing the church means these ppl wont have a place to quench thier spiritial and communial thirst.
John says
First of all closing any church is bad because God commanded us to fulfill His work through the operation of a local church (Heb.10:25,I Cor.16:2). Secondly, from a practical standpoint, without the organization how is any money going to anybody? We buy things like Bible and tracts to hand out, which is the command of the commission. It is not feeding the poor. There are other places in the word of God where we are told to help the poor, but it is not the commission of the church to feed the poor. The church and the body of Christ are the same thing. The church is not the building. It is the body. Thirdly your question is ridiculous considering that not one dime would be given to anything without the organization of the local church. Although there are many things in churches today that are not right, where are the converts going to come from without the entity? Think about it.
freewillgiver says
John
More money tithes, buildings and professional preachers is not what the world needs. Jesus calls us to let him take over more and more of our lives. Christian growth is not organizational but with deep relationship with him and others. Standard churches do many things to hinder real loving relationships.
Jesus never asked for a tithe to be given to the diciples or Christian leaders. It is hard to love a leader who expects and is dependant on ten percent of ones cash. How can one truly get to know such a person?
Tithe pastors are like walking bills which need to be paid. They are like goverment officials. “Your life will go better if you give to my ministry 10%” Most Christians do not pay that bill so a deep relationship with a tithe pastor is difficult. One feels like he is a different animal. We are clergy he is the true tithe taking priest. John do you see my point?
John do you believe that all Christians are to be priest and Christ to the world? The world needs more Christians to start in their homes and become the priest that Jesus has called them to be. 2 Peter 2Ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood. Churches are not buildings or organization they are people with Jesus Christ in their hearts. To many churches are boxes quarantining the gospel from the world. They preach to the choir.
John do you see the way the current church structure hinders Christian education? Jesus said bring the children to me Matthew 4:19.
The money tithe collecting organizations inoculate too many Christians from becoming evangelist with ministries to their neighbors and Families. Most Christians with kids who pay 10% to their local church do not send their own children to Christian schools. They also do not spend much on Christian entertainment in their own homes. If the average tithes paying Christian cannot disciple his own child every day with a Christian education and entertainment, then why dose that Christian believe that the local tithe denominational church will do a better job of making disciples of others?
If Christians felt that they were all suppose to be Christ, to the world and pastors to their families and unsaved friends then American Christianity would be more healthy. American tithe expecting pastors are a large part of this problem. Instead of preaching to replace themselves they teach priest to be sheep forever while they collect the tithes.
Matthew 28: 19 The standard conventional money tithe taking pastor lead American church, is not a very good at discipleship. The Disciples went to each others houses and fellowshipped by eating together. The modern professional money tithe church structure hinders Christians from being the priest of their homes and priest to their neighbors.
Christian education is a glaring example of the standard churches which charge the 10% money tithe disservice to tithe payers. America needs more Christian schools, and home schools and fewer churches in their current formulation, in my opinion. Christian schools disciple every day and turn each teacher into a minister. They operate more days a week than most churches. Why is the one day a week pastor church the model?
John a more radical model of church is preached in the Bible. Christ in every Christian and every Christian a leader to someone. More leaders are needed and less money tithe takers who call themselves pastors. A real pastor is one who leads in suffering and sacrifice like a missionary. Christian leaders should not expect money but suffering like Jesus. A suffering missionary leader can best help lead other Christians to do the same not a nice person with a comfortable job, leading the American dream, funded through money tithes.
Christ in Us
John says
Mr. freewill giver. This debate is endless. It appears that you are against traditional organized churches. Paul, the first missionary of the church, went everywhere preaching the gospel. He first went to the synagogue in each town, then he went house to house. Paul established local operative churches that were given a commission. This commission was basically to make disciples. These disciples were to carry on the work of Christ on Earth. The Bible clearly commands us to assemble together (Heb.10:25). In I Corinthians 16:2 the Word of God tells us when, how often, and what to bring. He is speaking to the local operative body in Corinth. He tells us to meet on the first day of the week(Sunday). He tells us who (“every one of you”, even Mr. freewill giver). He tells us how much to bring(“lay up in STORE). Assuming you have not studied the original language of the New Testament based upon your position; this word store means tithe, which means a tenth. A tenth of what do you say? I’m glad you asked. “As God has prospered him”. A real Pastor is one who spreads the Gospel. He also cares for the sheep. He in the under- Shepard of the operative church. The church is universal in Body (Ephesians), but it is local in operation (Acts). The Great commission was given to the disciples to be carried out by the church. Super Churches and T.V. evangelist have ruined the name of the church in many ways. The average small town pastor has to work a full time job, like me, and pastor a church. This an enormous responsibility. We work seven days a week, do everything, and are not very appreciated by people, i.e. Mr. freewill giver. I am assuming you are saved. If you are saved; who told you the gospel? I bet it was through some christian organization funded by gifts and offerings. Wouldn’t you want to give that to someone else. That is how you were reached. How many people can you reach on your own? Really? Do not feel that you are smarter than all of the men of God down through the ages. Are you, through pride, able to break away from doctrine and create another philosophy to live? Please read Galations 1:6-9. If you are of those who only believe the Gospels are scripture, do you believe the Old testament? If so, the Bible says in Malachi that if you don’t bring your tithes and offerings in the store house you are robbing God. The temple was God’s work on Earth before the Gospel. Is the local church not the work of God on Earth today? It sure was in Acts. Unless you have another gospel, it still is. You want the authority to do what you want with your money as opposed to obeying Bible authority. You stated that you have an opinion. I don’t have an opinion. I just want to obey God’s Word and HIS doctrine, not mine or yours. Do you even know what a Pastor does? We work every day and are always on call. I’m not living the American dream, I’m doing God’s will(not my will like you). Are you sacrificing for God. I would like to differ. Can you, living in the most wealthy country in the world, really be sacrificing? There are children going to bed tonight without food. You have a computer. How many of them have a computer? Why don’t you sell your computer and give the money to the poor? Did Christ have material possessions like you have? “And Jesus said unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay His head”. Do you have a place to lay your head? Christ did not. Why don’t you sell your house and give all like the early church. I am obviously being ridiculous, but to the extent that you might gain balance and wisdom. You need to look inward when being critical before looking outward (Mat.7). I am a Pastor and I gave my name. You are hiding behind a facade or codename. “Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil”. Your problem on tithing and local church ministry are with the Bible and not with me. Your philosophy should be based on the Bible. You shouldn’t base the Bible around your philosophy. The Bible is the ultimate authority, not your misinterpretation. I do appreciate you position on Christian Schools and home schools. We do need more. The only problem is Christ did not die for these, but for the Church (Acts 20:28). The local church at Ephesus is to whom he is speaking and referring . The local operative body, the likes of which you are speaking against. If food is your deepest base of fellowship with the believers than you are like the very people you are criticizing. My fellowship with believers is based on the blood of Christ which covers my sin.
pastor glenn says
John,
I am a pastor. I just happened to stumble on this blog to get a statistic to share with my small congregation. I am bi-vocational, like you. In fact, I give more to the church than I receive from the small stipend the church gives me. In effect, as was suggested to me, that my position as a pastor, financially speaking, was more like an “expensive hobby” than anything else. I don’t agree with that per se, but the point is, that I’m actually paying for the privilege to serve God and His people right here.
I am a retired, disabled military veteran. I receive a generous pension and disability. My wife works as a substitute teacher to make ends meet. We have a teenager at home, and in the past two years, footed the bill for our daughter’s wedding and provided for our son’s wedding. We are planning on doing the same for our third son and his wedding in the next couple of years. Big expenses.
In addition, our three oldest kids have all gone either to college or technical school, in pursuit of their careers. We’ve been able to help them somewhat in pursuit of their educational goals.
I say all that to say this: I’m very aware of my own needs as a husband and father. But as a pastor, I do not require a tithe from God’s people. And by the way, I know the original languages as well. I fail to see where you get the very strange notion that “store” means, by definition, tithe. The word is ?????????, which literally means “to keep safe something that is of great value.” In addition, Paul was not referring in any way shape or form to anything even remotely resembling a weekly tithe. Rather, he was on a mission to collect for the poor saints in Jerusalem who were in the midst of a famine (see Acts 11:27-29). In fact, and I’m sure you have done your homework in church history and the tithe, it wasn’t until about 800 AD that the tithe began to be required. It was the rich who gave, not tithed; the poor typically didn’t give anything. It was the Pope who actually required the tithe of everybody in the church, which I find very interesting. The Bible didn’t command it in the New Testament, but the supposed vicar on earth did. A little self interest perhaps?
I’m sure you are aware of 2 Cor 8-9, which is where God’s plan for giving lies. It had better be, because a tithe as 10% is FAR LESS than what God required His people to fork over in the OT, which is more like 20-30%, when everything is taken into consideration. So, when you require 10%, it is you who are robbing God. He told His people to bring the WHOLE tithe into the storehouse. If you are requiring only 10%, then it is you who are teaching what amounts to false doctrine.
In addition, my next point is in the form of a question: if we are saved by grace through faith in Christ, which is freely given, then why do we need, or require our people, to go back into the law in order to find out what we need to give?
Finally, it sounds like you are “beating the sheep” with your negative, condemning tone. Quite frankly, your seeming arrogance is appalling. Do you actually pastor a church, with people in it? If so, let me just challenge you, my brother (I assume you are saved by the grace of God in Christ, plus nothing minus nothing, to include tithing!) to show at least a LITTLE acceptance of the person, even though he may not agree with your position and he with yours. Your displayed extreme irritation with this blogger has no place in the body of Christ. No wonder the watching world looks at us and ridicules us–the lack of unity and display of judgment over the difference of opinion is incredible here. Jesus prayed that we would be one, as the He and the Father are one, so that the world would believe that He came; unity is, indeed the greatest witness we can give the unsaved world. The tithe issue is controversial and is a gray area; however, unity centered around our mutual faith in Christ is not optional.
Jared Brian says
John,
You said yourself that the Church is a body, and operates through the body, so i don’t understand how the closing down of a building is bad? If anything, your disagreement is revealing how over dependent we are on these material things to perform the work of Christ.
I realize that “things” are a tool for us to use, and are not inherently bad. The problem is that “things” such as buildings, technology, and programs become the bread basket of our financial investments as a body of believers. In the new testament, i do not see this model. As a matter of fact, the only type of gifts that were asked to be given or collected were for basic needs. Look it up for yourself and try to find a single verse that shows a giving campaign involved with anything besides personal needs. You won’t find it. . . anywhere.
Giving statistics have stated that 85% of church offerings are spent on the internal operation. Granted, a large majority of that is spent on “staff”, but 85%? . . . That’s a ridiculous number especially when you find such a high majority of giving in the New Testament model went to the needs of others.
If the Church body, which is the representation of Christ, cannot supply a cup of water in his name, or a piece of bread for a meal; why would the world listen to us when we speak of Jesus as the bread of life, and the living water? Supplying for the needs of others speaks more volumes about the name of Jesus than the most grandiose architectural structure in the world.
As a political side note. Look at how people look at government as their savior rather than the representation of Christ. Why? because we’ve neglected the most basic but and spiritual command Jesus gave to us. We preach “living bread” and “everlasting water”, and yet do we provide the humanistic form of this, which by the way is much easier to hand out than the spiritual?
– jared b
John says
I did not say the church is A body. I said the church is THE body (Colossians 1:18). The body of Christ. The church is not the building. Everybody knows that, but the topic is churches closing. If the building closed down the local church dispersed. Isn’t that obvious? They are no longer in operation. There’s nothing wrong with moving to another building or even going underground. If they cannot afford a building fine. Isn’t funny how it’s ok for you to have a nice house, but it’s somehow wrong for God’s people to meet in a nice building to worship Him. How much of your daily oprating expenses go to your actual needs as opposed to your ministerial practices. Add up you rent, food, luxuries, and other amenities. I bet it’s more than 85 percent. God does not suggest that we meet. he commands it (Heb. 10:25). He does not suggest that we tithe. He commands it (I Cor. 16:2). We are supposed to be good stewards of His tithe. Read what the priest lived on in the Old testament. Read what the Levi’s inheritance was. I realize that many churches today do not spend God’s money properly, but they will answer to the Lord for that. This, however, should not be used as a platform for rebellion as you have used it. There are a lot of bad preachers, but there are still some good ones. The Bible is good. The church is good. The Gospel message is still good. It is not the church’s job to hand out food to the world, although this is a good cause and we still do it. The church has a far greater responsibility. That responsibility is to give them living water. I am surprised that you brought that up and missed the whole point? That could have easily been used in my dissertation. Those statistics are not true in the churches I have been at. How can you put a percentage on something so ambiguous anyway? You can’t. Without the operation nothing gets done. It is all connected. Even if its your absurd 15 percent. How many missionaries did you send to the foreign field this year. To answer your question about the scripture, we are told to bring our tithes and offerings to the local operative body. If some churches spend too much on luxuries, which I believe they do, God will deal with them. If the technology is used for the furtherance of the Gospel, it is good. Don’t blast or condemn the whole local operative body because some don’t do right. They did not survey me. They did not survey hundreds of other Pastors I know who are spending their money right. It is a sad thing that churches are closing. If the buildings are closing the body is not going to meet. That is the real issue. You have all used the life of Christ and the Gospels to talk about Church doctrine? Christ came for one reason, although He did many things. His mission is found in Luke 19:10 and fulfilled in Hebrews 10:12. He then gave the book of Acts and the Epistles in the inspired Word of God to explain church doctrine and operation. Please read Hebrews 10:14-25 and explain how you can do that if you do not meet the way God told us to? If people drink water they will thirst again. If they eat food they will still die. If they receive Christ they will have everlasting life (John 3:16). Read third John. Gaius gave time and again to Paul. Read by what authority and where he gave in third John verse 8. In the church is where he gave. That was the local operative body. That would have been kind of hard if the body would have been dispersed. Read verse eight and see what John tells them that he and other ministers ought to receive. They took nothing of the gentiles, but he received gifts from the church. Your right Christians and churches should not rely on the government, but we should not fight against established authority (Romans 13:1-2). Please use scripture applicable next time, like something actually talking about the church not the life of Christ.
Jared Brian says
John,
I don’t care where people meet to worship God. Although using my home in comparison is a bad analogy. First, my home is not a pseudo-religious icon. Second, my home provides a place for shelter, food, comfort, and safety 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Third, my home provides for my family’s immediate, survivable needs. The main advantage of a church building is that it is established simply for the convenience of a larger crowd.
By the way, I never said it’s wrong to meet in large buildings, or in a nice place.
This website is NOT a platform for rebellion against truth. Although, this has been used as a rebellion against those who abuse money, and tithing. Nothing personal, but it seems that if i am concerned about stewardship in the Church, then pastors will be the object of criticism of blog posts. Can’t really complain about the president, when i am talking about matters of the Church.
Would you say it’s God’s job to provide for his creation? Then how the heck is he gonna do that without us doing it for him? That’s a bunch of hogwash to say that taking care of needs is not the Church’s job. Maybe God will send raven’s to everyone like he did Elijah.
There is no command in scripture that tells us to bring a tithe to the local body. As a matter of fact you don’t see the word “local” in regards to the Church anywhere in the bible, let alone a command to give 10% towards the whole body.
If the body doesn’t meet because of a building closing then that part of the body was dead anyway.
I may be unique in your eyes, but i believe that ministers should be well taken care of. I have no problem with a minister living a better life than i do. I hope they all are. I just want giving, as well as receiving, to be Holy Spirit instructed. Tithing has no place in a Spirit led Church.
– jared
David Glass says
Jared, I read with great interest what you said. I know It was 2 tears ago and I have just recently come across this site. By the way, My yougest grandson who lives in Fredricksburg VA is called Jared.Kinda srange I thought. But I can agree in principal with most of what you said, but some things , as is usual, I can’t agree with. Of course we need a proper building to perform our devotions and worship to the Lord, otherwise He would never have Countenanced the Tabernacle and then the Temple. But what I have to disagree with is you saying that if a Church shuts it was “dead” anyway.My little Church is “Shut” at the moment but it was far from dead. Now, there wasn’t a big crowd of us but we were Prayer Warriors and The Lord delivered many people from strange and terrible afflictions, and Srangely enough, most were unsaved people. Go figure. Eh! But I also feel that there are too many clever men who are good at talking and are very persuavive with a silver tongue and there primary aim is to get as much money as they can and they they actually live the Millionaire life. If I had wanted a pretty well off lifestyle I would have stayed in the Methodist. It never mattered how many came you had the same stipend as the other Ministers who perhaps did have a large congrgation. I felt led of the Lord to leave and plant a little Church in what could be described as a Hellhole. I have never received a eage and had to drive a taxicab all through the “TROUBLES” here but God protected me. I from time to time preached tithing but also told the folk what they did was between them and God. He knows our heart which is more important.But it does take money to run a Church well, and over the years before my dear wife died we tried our best in very trying circumstances. we even had a Day nursery with 28 children 4 days a week and sometimes the Mums paid but more often than not they didn’t. It was only £1.50 per day, aboue $2 in your money. Sadly, we had to close it eventually and even some of those wee boys who came to us as toddlers are dead and buried now because they got sucked into taking drugs and they all died as teenagers. We were the only ones that were honestly trying to make a difference and even some of the boys who came along as 3 year olds were some of the worst offenders of vandalising the wee Church Other guys who used to come to me and say 2David, can I have a wee preach sometime?” Of course, I encouraged them, but now they are HIGH on the hog and never acknowledge me nor my late wife Molly. No matter, I’m not their Judge, but to cut a long story short I was so busy driving, ministering, going to hospitals etc, and the with my dear lovely wife Molly who died of Bone Cancer just like her mother. And she had one brother who was Brethren, and he was a very successful millionaire, yet he wanted to put his mother into a home rather than look after her. Of course Molly and I brought her home to our house and tended to her until The Lord took her home. and when Molly was ill, her brther again treted her like a stranger, bur again as I say, he has also to stand before God as do we all. No wonder The Word says “All our righteousness is as filthy rags” It also tells us there’ll be many there we thought wouldn’t and vice-versa. As I said, God knows our hearts. But getting back to dead Churches, I take the blame for oyr Church getting closed ( hopefully temporarily ) but with all that happened over the years and the constant aggravation of vandalism and threats I never made sure we raised the cash to buy the piece of land on which we built our Church. I actually, against my my better judgement sent letters to all the rc#ichest Churcges in Western Christendom to ask for help, not to “Give” me money but to loan me enough to buy the plot of land and I naver even received a rebuke, never mind a reply. So just pray for us that God will make a way whwere there is no way and please pray for my grandson’s mother, my daughter she has had breast cancer, snapped her femur and has a Titanium rod in her thigh and this last year she has had bone and liver cancer.But she loves The Lord with all her heart and never complains. So don’t worry, God is awre of all that is going on and payday hasn’t arrived yet. Just do what you can with all your heart as onto The Lord Amen and God Bless.. David Glass.
freewillgiver says
Brother John thank you for your challenging post.
Where do you think that the tithe doctrines have been abused? I think that the word tithes should be gone for Christians and replaced with offerings or simply giving. What dose every man set in his heart mean to you Jon my brother? This sounds incompatible with tithes. How is Christian giving less strict than the Old testement in your opinion. I think we agree more than your last post.
If all christians are priest then who is otherized to expect the tithes. I am very evangelical and I was saved in a home Bible study. I was the kind of kid who brought his Bible to Jr. high and High school. I formed a Christian Rap band. I go to Bradshaw Christian School fellowship wich never takes an offering. Everyone is expected to give on their own. The Leader of this School of 1000 is the main speaker but everyone is expected to speak at some time in the fellowship. I am not against churches I am mearly against a lack of freedom in giving.
Can tithe money in your opinion be speant to send ones kids to Christian School? Do you believe that it is a sin to pay less than 10%? If you believe in leeway then you are not leagalistic. I do not believe that tithes are mentioned for Christians in the New testement.
I am not against offerings or traditional churches. However I am against the ten percent belongs to the local church doctrine. So long as any pastor dose not preach this doctrine I am fine with them concerning finaces. Thank you for your agreements with me concerning t.v. preachers.
My main beef is with cumpulsary tithes for Christians. Martin Luther the great reformer was against the ten percent for Christians forced tithes rule. In the Old testement the poor did not pay tithes but they recieved the tithes. Jewish land owners were the only ones commanded through the law of moses to tithe and it was not ten percent. It was a range between zero to 35% and it was not voluntary.
Finally Duteronomy 14:is where the Wine and strong drink tithes are found. What is your interpretation of how to carry this tithe out for Christians today?
I believe that every Chritian is to give to many offering plates. Jesus owns 100% and all Christians should shoot for as much of their money in the kingdom of Jesus as possible. But I do not have a narrow view of where offerings should be speant.
What denomination are you John and where is your church? Dose it have a website?
Thankyou for your reply. Answer when you have time. Im out of time. My wife might bust me for not cleaning the house. Later!
Christ in us.
John says
I agree with the principle that we ought to be freewill givers. I just believe that tithing is the way that God has always carried out His work on Earth. I realize that there have been some over the years such as Martin Luther and John R. Rice that did not believe in storehouse tithing. The principle is “as God has prospered him”. It is a standard that is different for every believer based on how “God has prospered him”(AV). It does not say “as he feel led to give”. It is a standard. I believe the Authorized Translation best renders this passage as “let every one of you lay by him in store”. This word store means a tenth. You cannot argue with what the word says. It speaks for itself as does the rest of the Bible. In the Old Testament the poor did pay tithes, and the Priests, who lived off of tithes, tithed on the tithes! We have developed a modernistic philosophy in our churches in these last days. The Bible calls it an apostasy or a turning away from truth. There is no doubt we have turned away from the traditional practices and doctrines of the operative church in the past 400 years. Read church history. When it comes to the comment about the house not being used for the church to operate in; what do you think the early church did? Read Acts 20:20. I do agree it is not best to meet for services in a house because that is private place for a family. The comment about a part of the body being dead is also quite offensive. It is offensive because no part of the body can die because Christ lives and it is His body! You can say that tithing has no place in the Spirit led church, but please use scripture to back it up not ignorant comments like “what the heck”. A spirit led church obeys the Bible not what they have preconceived as truth. We do give to the poor as does every believer should. It is a principle in the Word of God. I was just saying that it is not the main object of the church. I am sorry if that was misunderstood. I didn’t mean to sound cruel. Paul did say it’s vain to say you are going to pray for the need and not provide it if possible. Peter, however said “that which I have I give unto you”. He had no silver or gold. I was just saying that the main emphasis ought to be on the spiritual. Wouldn’t you agree? Read Acts 3:1-11. Paul said if a man doesn’t work, neither should he eat. What is your take on that?
Mr. Freewill giver, I did actually appreciate that last post. You seem more positive than my original take. I appreciate the fact that you have accepted Christ. I would not speak against the great reformer Martin Luther. He did not have everything figured out, for example infant baptism and and his view on the book of James. He was, however a great man of God and was highly used. I do not think now or ever I will attain to his bravery. I read on him often. I believe that we just disagree, you and I that is, on the principle of new testament tithing. We cannot all agree on everything all the time. That is part of our imperfect nature. The principle of freewill giving is correct in the sense that we ought to be a willing, cheerful giver. Everyone was commanded to pay tithes in the Old Testament. Malachi scolds them for not doing so. If a preacher stands up on Sunday morning to asks for tithes, as many do all the time, and he uses that money for his own lavish lifestyle, as many do, then I agree, he is wrong. I would just be careful about going too far the other way. I am a Pastor at a Baptist Church and our website in in progress. I’ll let you know when it is up and running. I won’t leave any more comments on this topic. I happened on this site by accident when preparing a sermon and looking for church statistics. I have actually never done this before. Isn’t funny how we get so consumed with things. You can have the last word.
freewillgiver says
John thank you May you have much grace when the issue of tithes comes up again in your conversation with your church members.
The definition of store however my friend I don’t think contains the Idea of tenth. I got this from blueletterbible.com.
At any rate, Even if I agreed with your position about store the question remains who shold folks tithe to. If all Christians are priest then who must pay tithes? In the Old testement the priest were exempt.
????????????
Transliteration
apoth?sauriz?
Pronunciation
ä-po-th?-sau-r?’-z? (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
from G575 and G2343
TDNT Reference
n/a
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to put away, lay by in store, to treasure away
2) to store up abundance for future use
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 1 AV — lay in store 1 Thayer’s Lexicon (Help)
Thank you John for your imput. If you preach the phrase Free will giving then your system of tithing might be less legalistic than most.
Laurie Ann says
I am a United Methodist Minister who is in conversations with a church about closing. They have not run out of money but have run out of energy-ten people managing almost an acre of property and a building. They are thinking about donating money to other organizations and hope that the building will be sold to someone who will allow the organizations who rent the space to stay. They are divided about what to do. I respect their journey and am looking for constructive ways to lead and to listen to them. It seems to me that a church can leave a legacy in other ways besides through it’s building. I also believe that there are possibilities for new life for them in other churches and for the building to have another congregation in it. Of course, conversations about mergers and partnerships are all apart of it.
Blessings to all of you as we
work this thing out prayerfully.
Marko says
Church is not a building. Matthew 18:20
Organized Church since the beginning of Christianity is what has been giving the very faith of Christ a bad name.
Once a group of people is too large to have that intimate setting of getting to know each other and the Lord than it all goes south.
IMO these Churches that take a ton of money from their followers are doing no good.
Once you go beyond 100 people in a church in no longer is God based it’s money based.
It becomes a business and the Pastor is now a CEO
Gary (from NC) says
Hello,
I found this link by researching what the practice of offerings was at the beginning of the 20th Century (roughly 1900 – 1930). When I look at the great spiritual leaders, William Seymore, John G. Lake, etc., it seems that taking up offerings was not practiced and they relyed on the providence of God. I am looking for more data on that and hope that you have something to add.
I’ve also done a fairly complete study of the bible on tithes and offerings and see that the current practice is based on Old Testament law with the recipients being the Levite priests and temple servants (now what we call pastors and staff). When considering, please keep in mind that the New Testament really began with Pentacost. And, Jesus is crystal clear that all born again folks are now the priests, which when added with the New Testament example of offerings being layed at the apostles feet from which they were distributed to all according to their need, means that the funds collected are to be used to take care of the needy in the church and probably elsewhere, but clearly not one or two or a few people as is practiced today. And you can see in the scriptures that the entire church was blessed.
Of course there’s also no biblical example of the current practice of stopping worship (music, song, dance whatever your flavor) to take up an offering. Actually the bible calls this practice quenching the Spirit. Knowing this to be true, there has to be some doubt about the legitimacy of our practice (mixture) of tithes and offerings in the worship service.
One more thing, (I believe I have this right), the word “seed” and “seeds” is recorded 280 times in the bible, but not once is it ever referred to as money. It refers to either real seed or the “Word”. So what’s up with everyone now telling their congregations and supporters to sow a $___ seed?
Let me know what you have. This is a search for knowledge, so I’m not interested in hearing from people whose response is based on being offended.
Much love in Jesus!
Gary
Susan Lavoie says
Gary,
Thats’ true about the word seed. One more reference for seed is our “offspring”, our children.
Sadly, too many people in ministry have adopted or should I say “misused” the meaning of this word to mean money.
Today, when most people who have been part of a pentecostal/charismatic/non-denominational instutition hear the word “seed” ….. they immediately think of $$$.
It’s a journey to detox and let go of wrong teaching.
joel says
Hi Gary ,
Thank God that he has revealed to you the truth that is in the scriptures to confirm his will for us .Christians who want to be free and study the bible properly will be set free .Some of the christians commenting here were victims of abuse by pastors and leaders who practise and teach unbiblical tithing laws to raise money for their own use and use the bible to defraud many good trusting christians.
Some of the people who comment on this site are pastors who are defending tithing because that is how they get their money by deception delibrately defrauding christians .
They post their comments here without revealing their true identidy because they still want uninformed christians to support them and their lifestyles . These are the true wolves Jesus warned us about .
Ture biblical new covenant giving is found in 2 Corinthians 8:12 NLT,NKJ,AMP version It clearly teaches christian to “GIVE WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD” . If we ignore what the bible teaches then its not Gods fault if we are mislead or robbed by lying pastors and leaders who covet money and riches for their own selfish agendas using christians who are too lazy to study the bible for themselves who blindly follow them .
May God reveal his grace to you concerning your finances
David Glass says
I was somewhat surprised and at times astounded at the arguments that I have just read and would be grateful if I could give my tuppence worth.I was in the Mrthodist Church and left it 21 years ago to plant a little pentecostal Church in Rathcoole Newtownabbey N. Ireland. A land of Saints and Sinners, mostly sinners. my late wife mooly and I planted this Church with the idea of pople learning the TRUTH of God’s Wird, not a watered down or intellineb#nt teaching where all knew the original Greek and Arabic texts. But we opted for planting a Church in a Housing Estate that was brimming over with drugs, alcoholism robbery killing and controlled by Para-militaries. We got a piece of ground from the local Housing Authority at a small rent for 10 years with the option to buy. But it was a very hard task, but I believe that you go where God wants you to be a Witness for Him. The pice of land we got was always used as a dump and as a Bonfire site every 12th of July to commorate Prince william 3rd’s victory over the Catholic King John. Some things never die they just fester for 100’s of years. anyway as soon as we were given the ground the same Housing Authority and the Enviromental walla in the local Newtownabbey Council both contacted me and said if I didn’t get this piece of ground CLEANED immediately I would be taken to Court and fined. Nice people, aren’t they? Anyway we did and then we moved heaven and earth to raise money to surround the 1/4 acre site with a substantial 6ft. high, 2 inch squared Gakvanized wire fence for just over £3,000. It was all gone in a month.Not a very auspicious start, but marked our card of how difficult it would be. we starte4d with just a few pwople in the hoise prayer meetings and then progressed to an upstaitrs room in a shopping centre. We preached tithing , but I also always told the folk if they felt uncomfortable just to give what they believed they could afford. I mean, you don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater, do you. Folk need time to settle in and learn. From the day we started the Church, I never received a wage and drove a taxi-cab at nights round Belfast at the height of the bombings and shootings. Eventuaally, 6 years later we had enough to build a little Church where we could meet and hopefully be a witness and spread the word. It was on the piece of ground I mentioned at the start, and from we started till the present time we suffered untold vandalism and threats and assaults. But in a storm you have to keep going forward, so I’m told. By this time 10 years later my lovely wife Molly took Lymphoma Cancer, but thank God, through prayer and fasting she recovered 2 years later. We belived that she would never be stricken with such a disease again. Fast forward the next 6 years and the attcks carried on as usual. We even opened up a day creche which had 28 children in it every day and my daughter Sandra run it and once in a while someone might have paid towards all the expense. We thought it right and proper that this was done for the sajke of the Kingdom and we kept it going for almost 5 years.. Now, if everyone who was coming at that time HAD TITHED I’m sure we could have gone on much longer. Rememember Jesus “What you do , do with all your heart as on to ME”. Then diiferent folk came in from the Mainstream Churches and began to cause dissension. They didn’t agree that we had to look after anyone but ourselves and he Church. The attacks on the building kept on unabated and many left through fear and intimidation. I buried scores of people and never asked or received payment for the Service. I did the same when the Mainstream Churches would Christen children, I dedicated them, which also is Biblical. The my dear wife WAS stricken with cancer again, bone cancer, what her Mother died with in the Hospice. Even when she was able to be at home we brought her home to our house to care for her, but Molly’s Brother ,who was a Bretherh Millionare wanted to put her in a home. Listen, it’s not Rocket Science, we do or should do, what Jesus would do. Amen. Anyway, Molly herself died with the same disease 51/2 years ago. Now my daughter in Fredericksburg, Virginia had Breast cancer just over 2 years ago and had 10 months Chemo, then 30 sessions of Radiation. And a feww weeks later, she flew home here to N. Ireland to take me to hospital for a gall-bladder removal, visited me every day and then brought me home. When she flew out that night she had to spend all night in Heath Row airport because of 3 feet of snow back in Virginia. Her husband’s father died in Ohio and Ed and deborah drove a 7 hour drive ti there and booked into a hotel. Next morning, day of funeral, Deborah went for a shower, no mats on the floor and no handrails and she slid across the floor and snapped her Femur. Had to get a Titanium rod put into hrrer thigh and now she has cancer spots on her liver and bines. Please pray for her. Aren’t all these things more important than arguing about tithing and who are priests etc. Just to put the lid in it, when I went to open Church on Subday past, and by the way, we only have about 12 coming now. People can’t take the aggravation. Anyway, the Housing Authority who let me have the ground 21 years ago, had put a steel door across the entrance to the Church. They said my lease was up 11 years ago and I still hadn’t bought the ground. sothere. Another Church closed, and it doesn’t matter how many go, God said “Where2 or 3 are Gathered in My Name, I Am in the midsy”. So what can I do? I haven’t the cash to buy the piece of ground, but maybe, just maybe, if we had ALL tithed from the beginning it would have been there. Just another sad tale but I believe that The LOrd is unhappy with many who could have prevented this. After all, we can’t take it with us, and from dust we came and to dust we’llreturn, no matter how long we think we have. So don’t argue over silly things, if God has called you to do a work do it with all your heart. David Glass
Gary (from NC) says
Hi Brother David,
It sounds like you have worked hard to do what you believe is the right thing. That’s all any of us can do, and I’m sure you have much to share that would be of value. It also sounds like your work there, at least in the little church, is finished. I feel the unction to ask that you move to the USA. With the Lord’s help I am beginning a work in Henderson, NC which basically involves rebuilding the inner city (something you know all about) and establishing the ministry as the center of community with the plan of providing worship, fellowship, housing, work, etc. for the congregation. That’s what I see the first church as being … and not what is is today. As I understand it, during the first century church when you confessed to being a Christian the authorities took your property, citizenship, and black listed you from work. They had to be totally dependent upon God and each other and their needs were fulfilled. If I am right, the Lord will make it prosper beyond imagination. If not, it will go the way of most other churches and denominations. Our job is simply to step out in faith.
I have experienced amazing miracles, but nothing compared to the infinite possibilities I desire and know that Jesus will share as we draw ever closer. I may walk blindly, but at least I keep walking.
My personal email is: if you would like to talk further offline.
I think Fredricksburg is less than 3 hours from Henderson.
God bless you with much much love!
Gary Morgan
freewillgiver says
Thank you David! You have worked hard for Jesus in this life and by your testimony which you wrote to us I feel I have gained wisdom. I preach that money tithe doctrines hinder the ministries of ordinary priest. Simply asking for money or support will suffice but you David I do not see as a crook. The 90% figure I quote is the percentage estimate of evangelicals who preach Church tithes. I don’t Know who the crooks are that is for Jesus. Many Good preachers disagree with me but they are still my brothers.
I think we agree however that The Best Christians seem to suffer the most. Love suffers long and is kind. David you have had to go through many difficult hardships and humiliations but all these came from Jesus. Earth has not rewarded you like most great Christians. Here is a word for you brother.
But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”
Only in heaven can you recieve your full reward. This blog believes in supporting preachers who are faithful and true. However not all preachers endure hardship like your testimony. Many are in it for the money and they abuse money tithe doctrines to create comfort for themselves at the expence of the sheep which they are suppose to be teaching to be living sacrifices. Do you think David that you have strove to be a living sacrifice laying your life down for the sheep? From your testimony I would guess yes. Praise Jesus!
Thank you Gary for sharing your ministry I hope you lead many to be full priest of Christ preaching the gospel. Gary your generosity to david shows that by sharing we all have a hundred fold return. No We cannot expet to all be millionares but we are rich in Jesus beyond earthly wealth.
Gary and David this is for you and all who share of their wealth.
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight
28Peter said to him, “We have left everything to follow you!” 29“I tell you the truth,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”
David Glass says
Dear freewillgiver, thank you for your support and your wise remarks. It’s like a very large Churh not too far from me, and the first time Molly had cancer he asked me down to his Sanctuary, and I mean a very ostentatious place, to have a time of prayer foe Molly whom he had known for years. He has about 6 or 7 Pastors, but they never get preaching and all they do is visit and make sure the “Flock” is kept up to their attendace and tithing. Well, we had a time of prayer with the other Pastors, now they are all very nice and friendly but I felt sorry in my heart for them. I believe if they would have just stepped out in Faith, God would have opened doors for their own brand of preaching the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is 3,500 goes to the Church, and I Praise God for that, but if you heard the way the Pastor berates them and cajoles them into giving until it hurts you would have to hear it to believe it. Well, I suppose it takes a lot to run the place, and what he would get in one collection would pay for my little church, the ground and still have a lot left over. But God sees and knows what is going on, and like most of these Big Time “Charlies” they STILL have to give an account of themslves. Now don’t get me wrong, none of us are perfect. The only Perfct One was Crucified on Calvary. Amen. But after the time of prayer for all things and Molly in particular, I was invted up to his study for a cup of tea/coffee. Even the size of his study astounded me. And even when I was in the Methodist’s, I never saw such a grand sight. Anyway, we got to talking and he asked me how things were going and I looked at him and said, “Jim, would you not consider building another Church in Rathcoole, I mean, I know that you send in buses but think of those in this Hellhole of Rathcoole that go nowhere and certainly would not be seen dead ridng on one of your buses, but if there was a smaller Metropolitan in Rathcoole, you would probably fill it.” He looked at me incredulously and said in a very condecending and irritated tone “Rathcoole x3, Why i have people come to me from all over the Province (Ulster) you don’t need another Church up there and the reat of the mainstreams should all be coming here,” I stared at him a moment and said very quietly but with as much conviction as I could muster. “I cannot believe what you said, this is not your house, it is supposed to be a House of God. You are just like me. You are a mouthpice for God, He has Blessed you and never ever think that YOU are so clever that you are in control. God might take it from you in an instant, and God forgive you for decrying other sinners and leaving them to their fate. You said to me that if they don’t want to come here then just forget about them they don’t deserve any better. Thank you for your time .” with that I got up and walked out. He still won’t even look at me till this day. I was so cross when I left but I prayed for him and asked The Lord to forgive him and to keep blessing him. Whereas he would ask people point blank from the pulpit to “Dig Deep” I preached what it says in the bible about tithing but it’s up to the individual. I remember a wee woman called Maggie Dougan who came along to me from the very start. Maggies wee legs were so bowed and they seemed to get worse as the time passed and she always paid exactly a 10th of whatever she had and I said to her one day, “Maggie love, how can you afford to keep doing what you do, Because you have so much to do?” She had a son who lived in London, and was coming over to stay with her permantently. He was called Edwin and he had his two legs amputated from above the knees through smoking. That was going to be another expense for her to find. She looked at me and said,”I can’t afford not to”. Edwin came and stayed in the little flat with his Mom for about 2 years and then had to go into hospital. I took her up one day to see him as the doc said he didn’t have long. I had spoken to him several times about salvation but you can’t berate people till they switch off completely. So he was lying there in the little side room and we were praying God would undertake for him, when he suddenly opened his eyes and looked at us and said, ” Who is that Black man carrying that heavy load and look at that poor man crawling beside him?” He closed his eyes and passed away. I believe with ALL my heart that The Lord gave him a vision of Simon of Cyrene carrying the Cross for Jesus and I cried because I knew in my heart that God had taken him Home to Glory. What a friend we have in Jesus, Amen. Do you know that wonderful hymn was written by a man called Joseph Scriven who lived about 30 miles away from me. The night before he was to be married his Fiancee was killed in a horse accident so he joined the Army to forget and he was soon released by the Army because he had very bad health. time passed awhile and he met and got engaged to be married. The night before the wedding, she died. How do you get through that as a human being? HE retired to his study and wrote that wonderfl hymn which has blest so many millions of people in times of distress, “What a Friend we have in Jesus, All our Sins and Griefs to bear, What a Privilgege to carry EVERYTHING to God in PRAYER.” That certainly helped me when my dear wife Molly died 5 1/2 years ago with Bone Cancer. God knows ALL that comes our way and as you say He’ll see us through. What I learned over the years was not to prejudge anyone, for they always show themselves up for what they are eventually. Thanks again for your post and I hope I didn’t waffle on too much, but I pray and trust that The Lord will Bless you and give you wonderful oppotunities,. Always rememeber that you might be entertaining an angel unawares. Maybe if we talk again I’ll be able to share of how an Angel appeared to Molly the first time she had cancer. Goodbye and God Bless. ps. Please pray for my daughter Deborah who lives in Fredicksburg Virginia and has had cancer for over 2 years now. Thank you. David Glass
Susan Lavoie says
David,
Please forgive me for intruding upon your comment/conversation with Freewill Giver .. but I was surprised to see that you have family in Fredericksburg, VA. That is my hometown. I am praying for your daughter Deborah.
God Bless, ~ Susan
David Glass says
My daer Susan, thanks for continuing to pray for Deborah, she is back on Chemo again but she tries to remain as positive and cheerful as ever, If you can find the time would you please email her at debs0968@yahoo.com and maybe you two can meet uo. Debbie lives in Riggs Road and that may not be to far from you. God bless you . David Glass.
blessed says
Hi freewillgiver
,Be careful there are wolves trying to solicit funds from christians on this site .
Jared Brian says
YES. I agree with you blessed.
i had deleted one of david’s comments already. It is a little shady. everyone BEWARE please. I cannot verify David’s stories, nor do i wish to discredit him either. If there is any comment that directly asks for donations or is directly soliciting please email me, and inform me who stated it and what was the time and date of the comment. Thank you Blessed. I try to keep this blog as open as possible and sometimes there are some wolves that slip in. Everyone needs to use discernment even if you think you know someone. I was contemplating about deleting all of David’s comments. Something doesn’t feel right in my gut about it.
– jared (site owner)
Gary (from NC) says
David,
So you’ll know, I was serious. Some businessmen gave me a non-profit corporation (no $ in it though…HaHa) and are donating a small house in the inner city that needs an HVAC system and other repairs (minor I think). There will be room for you and plenty of work. I’m not a pastor … need someone who is sold out that can carry that charge. Not that I can’t share a word from the Lord … just don’t feel it’s my primary calling. There are 170+ churches in our county of 42,000 people. Out of all of them, I know alot of pastors who are very good men/women, but none completely sold out to doing His will. I guess you understand what it’s like to feel like the only one left (like Elijah).
Anyway, the offer is there.
God Bless!
Gary
PS: Thanks Freewillgiver … God bless you!
Gary says
An interesting thought … Since the largest church expense is usually for salaries, doesn’t that really mean that when the staff tithe they are simply paying themselves? and everyone else is paying them too? It really doesn’t leave their pocket like the general congregation does it?
David Glass says
I see you did not publish my thoughts on tithing and the Church. But could you even send Susan Lavoie the address or email of my daughter Deborah who also lives in Fredricksburg and she might recieve great encouragement as she faces her time of trial. Thank youand God Bless.
David Glass says
I am a very disappointed person for the way you have portrayed my comments. I am not soliciting funds or trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes. I am an open book and just say it as it is.How dare you even suggest that I would do such a thing and even pretend that my daughter from Fredricksburg hasCancer. Eveery word I wrote about her is Gospel and all i was expecting was for people even like Susan Lavoie, who lives in the same City, I was pleased to hear her say she would pray for her Deborah has had this dreaded disease for over 2 years now. What is it you want? Would you rather she passed away to prove apoint that she really was ill?God forgive you, I think that you are a bit mixed up.
Jared Brian says
David,
My wife ministers to cancer patients every week and has been by the bedside of many of those who have passed away. I have been to numerous funerals and even recovery parties of those who have been effected by this disease. So my family has been involved and compassionate towards dozens of families that have been effected by cancer.
There is only one part of your comment that disturbs me. You actually give a hypothetical example of your daughter dying just to make your point. I warned people about your comment because i have probably a dozen emails just last week from people who tell me that they’ve got a relative that’s sick and they need some money and that they are gonna die if you don’t. The ironic thing – ’empathy’ and ‘guilt’ are the main emotions they all try to impose on you. There’s a time and a place to ask for donations, but on forums or blogs is NOT one of them. There are too many scams out there that all sound SOOO good, and i’m not going to research every single person that wants me to donate some money to a plot of ground. I never said you weren’t legitimate. I state my opinion that it sounds fishy, and remind them of the wolves that are out there. Being on the internet, an inquiry such as yours, i’m usually correct 99% of the time.
Being that as it may, you are free to comment all you want, but as a reminder, i deleted only ONE comment from you, and that is the one asking for donations. I could have deleted all of your comments if i was 100% sure you were not legitimate. You should take that as comfort and continue to fellowship on this blog, but do not be offended by my policy which does not allow comments which solicit donations.
– Jared
David Glass says
Jared, you STILL don’t get the point. And God forgive you for suggesting that I’m trying to give the impression that my daughter is dying. I never did such a thing, in fact I believe in my heart that The Lord will heal her. I’m just a guy who wears his heart on his sleeve and I just say things the way they are. Haven’t we all been at a funeral of some poor soul who die from Cancer. My mother,Mother in law and my wife all died from Cancer, and my brother Tom in Australia beat Prostate Cancer. I have buried dozens of people who died from it, but for you to say that I was using my Daughter’s illness to illicit sympathy to get help, may The Good Lord forgive you. I love my Deborah wiyh all my heart and wouldn’t countenance such a disgusting ploy. And you still don’t listen. I sent a blog or whatever you call it to Joel not to your site looking for funds. I have already told you that I sent that letter unashamedly to all and sundry really believing that Christians would help Christians. And if you read it, I didn’t ask anyone to GIVE me anything but a loan, large or small and when I said I would repay them I meant what I said. God is no man’s debtor and neither am I. So to me you just sound as if you are judge and jury on the feelings and needs of people you don’t even know. I really think that I deserve an apolgy for your inference of what I was about. And I still feel that Christians are duty bound to help other Christians. Molly and I did it all our life, well until she died but I would still give my very last to anyone in need if they asked me. So don’t make me out as a Bad-Guy, because I know Whom I have to face one day and there will be no excuses entertained. And as for your dear wife ministering to Cancer patients, God Bless her and be with ehr as she ministers to anyone with that Curse of a disease. Molly and I did the same for years, in fact until she had to go into Belvoir Park Cancer in Belfast for treatment for her Bone Cancer. It was about the worst kind of ministry that I ever had to do. to give comfort to folk who knew they didn’t have long to go. So do not prejudge me, for God is my Judge, and if I have did wrong then I will answer to Him. I wish you no harm or misfortune, in fact I pray God will open up a wonderful Ministry to you, but please keep things in perspective and let God be The Judge. David Glass.
joel says
Hi David Glass ,
I am a straight shooter , there is no way shape or form you can possibly receive any money from me in this life time even if I receive an email from you asking for a loan .One of the reason why I post comments on this site is to warn christians of wolves like you defrauding christians using unbiblical money tithes to con people of their hard earned money .
You are an example of a wolf trying to “CON” people who love Christ to give you money .Scam artist like you do not get very far with me ,I can see you comming a long way before you even think of trying to ask for money .
David Glass says
Joel, I have to say that I am very hurt and disappointed, for when iread your blog the other day it made a whole lot of sense. But don;t think you can call ME names and think it’s ok,from thinking you were a wise man I now think you are a mistsken man who would rather think ill of people than expect the best. I never and never would ask you for anything except common sense. You say you are a straight shooter, well so am I. I just say whwt I believe , I don;t make things up and I don’t think ill of antone. You shoul have a time alone with God and ask for common sense and maybe insread of being hurtful and misinformed He might enlighten you. To tell you the truth, I now feel sorry for you and I guess that you will get worse before you get better. Trying to hurt my feelings won’t make you feel better , or maybe it will. Either way, I feel no animosity towards you for what you said but I do pray that you’ll wake up and smell the coffee. God Bless you and Goodbye.
Jared Brian says
OKAY EVERYONE!
If you read below you will see part of David’s comment that i DID NOT approve.
David, you need to exercise some wisdom and understand that a forum on the internet is NOT the place to ask for donations. I don’t care if you are legitimate. Forums, blogs, and emails are RAMPANT with promises and begging that is almost verbatim to what you just stated. Of course we’re not going to trust you! You just asked a bunch of random people that you’ve never even seen before for £40,000. IS THAT A JOKE?! I wouldn’t trust my own flesh and blood with 25% of that amount without thoroughly and deeply investigating into his cause.
joel says
Thank you Steward ,
I think we have some proffesional con artist on this site and I also think Gary and David Glass is the same person .
joel says
Hi David Glass,
You have more chances of having breakfast with Osama Bin Laden then getting money from me in this life time .There are many pastors and christians who take advantage of christians all over the world today because they covet peoples money .
If you are not a “con artist” then you should not be offended .