Another question has come up from a person named Mark.
If I want to donate to a house building ministry to cover the cost of materials to build the house, and go to Mexico to do the work, can that be my tithe? I can not afford to give my church my 10% next month and the house building for the poor all in the same month. I have committed to the Mexico trip.
Mark,
First things first. You are not required to tithe (10% minimum). I don’t want to go into much detail about that, since there is so much information not only on this website but on so many others as well.
It seems that the Spirit has put a burden on your heart to help the people in Mexico. Do not suppress the Holy Spirit’s conviction on your heart. I cannot directly tell you what you should do with your giving. I would definitely say it’s not worth getting into debt over the matter. If you feel that the Holy Spirit is asking you to give both to Mexico and your church, then find ways you can sacrifice in order to pay both. I don’t know if it would be selling something, or fasting through a couple of meals to save money.
It is great news to hear that your heart is opened to the conviction of giving from the Holy Spirit and not from a law that is dead. The Spirit is alive in you, so follow the calling from the law that is living in you instead of the law of tithing that has been dead for 2000 years.
They answered the question of tithing with Matthew 23:23:
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
how can you say tithing has been dead 2000 years ago????As a believer, you have to show who your Lord is! Is it the teachers who tell you tithing is not New Testament and who tell you that Jesus word on the subject is out of date; or is it Jesus who clearly told us not to neglect tithing? No modern teacher has the right to tell you to disobey Jesus instruction on tithing. Period!
just ran across your response. I believe he is talking about the LAW of tithing that has been dead for 2000 years. When Christ came onto the scene the old LAWS were done away with. Tithing is a blessing, no longer a law.
That’s a zinger Dawn – Tithing is a BLESSING!
;-) – Rhys
dj
I call myself freewillgiver because the phrase free will offerings is found about 16 times in the old testement.
Free will seems to aptly describe how Christian priest are suppose to give to each other and the lost. How should christians in your opinion apply the idea of free will offerings
Since we are all priest it seems to me that there can be no obligitory tithe system for Christians.
Martin Luther the great Reformer had the same opinion because the Roman Catholic church of his day demanded tithes. Martin luther explained that tithing was fulfilled and done away with after the Cross. The Quakers and many other Christian group do not practice tithing. They still recieve gifts and offerings but there is no obligation.
I hope you will respond to my comment.
1. How should Christians apply the eat the tithe commands in the Church today? How should Christians apply the eating and drinking of wine and strong drink tithes today? Deuteronomy 14:19-30
2. Under the law were tithes volunntary? 3 Can you show me any place in the law of Moses where the obligitory tithes were Money? 4 What is a tithe dj in your view. Can all Christians recieve a tithe? 5 Who has the athority to expect and to collect the tithe today?
Matthew 23:23 was Jesus speaking before the cross to Jewish teachers of the Law. The audience was still under the Law of Moses. Were Gentiles Christians ever told to tithe?
Thankyou I am waiting for you reply
Christ in us
DJ and friends who want to be missionaries for Jesus.
It seems my quote was too long on the last post. Deuteronomy 14:26-30 shows that the Old testement tithe giver had some control at times how to spend the tithe. Today I think that tithing is gone. Today all Christians have compleet control of their money. We can spend holy money on ourselves or others and not be in sin so long as we are praising Jesus by spending the way he directs.
Priest in the Old testement ate tithes. As priest We do not need another priest to tell us exactly how to spend for Jesus.
Go on your mission trip and eat the tithe. However do not go if Jesus directs you to spend your money in a different way.
26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household
We meet again. You are pretty focused on this tithe thing. I do know good men on both sides of this issue. It is is true that the nature of the New Testament believer is freewill and choice. The law however, is still good. Christ did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill the law. We fulfill the law through His Spirit because we are unable to do so in the flesh. See the contrast of Romans 7 & 8. The Bible says that the condemnation has been taken away. The law will never be taken away. It was fulfilled in Christ. The condemnation is taken away by our obedience to the law of God. If we disobey His law our condemnation is not taken away (Gal. 6:7). Our condemnation is eternally taken away at Calvary, but if we live in the flesh we, even as Christians, we will suffer in the flesh because God’s law is still true and right. It is a principle. When I was in school I learned the laws of grammar, not very well ha ha. When I turned a paper in with an error the teacher marked it with a red x. I am now grown and as you can see my grammar needs some work. The point is I can make a mistake and nobody marks a red x on my paper. I am no longer in subjection, in a formal manner, to the laws of grammar. This does not mean that the laws have changed. The laws of grammar are still true. This is much like the law. No priest is going to publicly condemn me or make me answer for my sin. I am in indwelt by the Spirit of God which, as you have stated, makes me a priest. Every Christian is a Priest in their relationship to God. This means I do not have to go to any man to get to God. Christ took down the “middle wall of partition” for us. This priesthood does not take away my obligation to assemble with the local operative church. Do you even believe in a local body? I can deal with the disagreement on tithing. I have friends that hold your position. I do however, have a problem with this idea that the priesthood of the believer negates the assembling and operation of a local body. You cannot find a scripture in the Bible were the church operated any way but locally. You cannot just go out on your own doing whatever you want and say “I am a priest and Spirit led”. The Spirit led Christian is led to participate in a local church body. Any Christian who does not participate in a local body does not want to come under authority. Pastors are gifts to the body. They watch for your soul. In I Corithians 16:2 the Bible tells us to lay aside. The Greek word here is transliterated tithato. Look familiar? If you do not believe in store house tithing, fine. There is no question, however, that Paul was telling the local assembly at the church of corinth to bring something on Sunday to the church. There is no question about that. Paul addressed Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Collose, Thessalonica, and others in Acts. There is no question that these churches were local bodies assmebling for worhship. Hebrews tells us not to forsake such a thing. They were to bring their offering and give into the local church (Corinth) and the leader of that local body was to administrate that properly. James was the Pastor of the church at Jerusalem. John was the pastor of the Ephesian church. Paul and Barnabas did not go out because they were solely Spirit led. They were Spirit led, but they were confirmed and sent out by the church at Antioch. They came under the authority of the local church body. The Church has a dual nature in definition. If you read the book of Ephesians you will realize that the church is universal in nature. “We are all baptized by one Spirit into one Body” (A.V.). We understand the church is Christ body, but it never operated apart from a local body. Paul told the Colossians to read his letter to Loadecia. This was another operative localized body. How can you have a plural aspect if the church was one as the book of Ephesians calls it. It is because it operated locally. The local church is a type of the Universal body. Whether or not you agree with all of these principals you must admit that these local assemblies carried out God’s work and every church reference, when dealing with instructions, were given to a local body. Who do you think Paul was writing? By what authority did Paul deliver Hymenaeus and Alexander to Satan? Were they priests? Paul did this by Apostolic authority. All of the gifts of the body operated under local Church authority. The Apostles who laid the foundation were sent and every one of them had a part in a local body. This was not a bible study or a cell group, but a Pastor led congregation. Even Philip the evangelist operated under local church authority. How can you say “where would they bring the tithe since all Christians are priests”. The debate is whether Paul meant a tithe or a freewill offering, not where or to whom would they bring it. They were instructed to bring it to Corinth. Who do you think the book was written to? What do you do with the local offices of a church i.e. Bishop and Elder? Don’t you know that the Bishop was the leader in the local church. Read Acts chapter six and you will see what the elders were supposed to do. Who is your Bishop? Are you your own Bishop. If so, where is your congregation. Are you silly enough to debate whether or not the church operated this way? The Bible clearly spells out different.
DJ,
It was Jesus who said in the same chapter, “obey what the pharisees teach”. Does this mean that Jesus was commanding US to obey the rules the pharisees had taught?
– jared
The word pastor is used only one time in the new testement so how can you call John a pastor with certanty? Ah but this is what the hundreds of major denominations of Protestants have been doing for centuries. They all have various different takes on how that leadership should function.
I believe that the Bible purposfully left the mechanics of the ancient church governans mostly vauge and sketchy. Multiple kinds of church governace can be devised given the new testement. What is important is Loving fellowhship in Jesus Christ. No person is called or adressed as pastor in the New tesement. Just as no person is addresed as administrator and we know that administrator is a gift of the Spirit.
From this line of logic I determine that pastor is more of what somone dose an action than any kind of office.
I believe in bishops, elders and pastors but not so much as lables but as ways that spiritual leadership sacrifices for the rest of the Body of Christ. Jesus leadership is not to be served but to serve as the most lowly of servants. In Jesus logic moving down in status is moving up.
The word bishop occurs not very often also. You have understood well what I wrote when I talk about a fellwoship of free will givers. All this athority and local church talk is mostly irrelivant. I do not esteem one day as more speacial than the others and neither dose the New tesement.
Athority and defined offices are needed for those who believe in Church tithing.
The passage that you reference John that they met together for the collection on the first of the week was an instance of alms giving by Christians.
Paul in Galations probably the first non- gospel book written in the New testement rebuked Peter and the rest of the apostles for the racism of seaparating while eating. Paul seemed on the same level of athority. The athority of friends, brothers, and fellow priest.
Pastor in the New testement has a mostly unknown definition so churches of today have filled it with all kinds of athorities.
What makes Pastor lead local congregations somthing greater than Bible studys? This is strange non biblical logic. It kind of sounds like the term para-church ministries. All christians are priest so all Christians have ministries. Submition to some local pastor is voluntary and mabey needed in some instances. However submition to Jesus the Good Sheapard is definitly necisarry every day.
1Ti 3:1 This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
2Ti 4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ [be] with thy spirit. Grace [be] with you. Amen. [[[The second [epistle] unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.]]]
Tts 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tts 3:15 All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace [be] with you all. Amen. [[[It was written to Titus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Cretians, from Nicopolis of Macedonia.]]]
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I got to go bro and get back to work but I suspect you catch my drift. Tithes are my major issue because without the Obligation then the athority is based mostly on love.
Chist in us
Defined offices are given in the New Testament. How can you say that offices are for those who believe in church tithing. Man you are out there. Study how the early church operated. They had a local church Pastor or Bishop. We obviously know we are the least. No one is arguing that. Read the early church fathers and how they worshiped. Can a home Bible study baptize or officiate the Lord’s supper? No! This was given to the local church. We use the word local to describe the operating church because that is the way it operated, period. It cannot be seen any other way because that is literally what they did. You have to twist scripture to come to that conclusion. Do you go around baptizing and officiating the Lord’s supper? If a Bible study does these things they are a church. If a man desire the office of a Bishop he desireth a good thing. If a Christian can desire something extra then it is obviously not something everybody does or is called to do. Paul was put into the ministry. He did not just go around doing what he wanted. If the office of an Elder was given to everyone why were only six selected out of seven thousand? The church definitely has offices. The Bible calls them offices and that’s what they are. There is no record of the church operating any way but locally! That is not up for debate. Do you not understand that the letters were addressed to the local operative bodies? Corinth was not a person. It was a local operative body. It is the church of Corinth which was the LOCAL community. The church of Galatia did not operate in Corinth, they operated in the local area. They assembled together. The word local does not have to be in the Bible because the idea is there. If you can find a place where Paul is talking to the Church and he tells them to operated any way but, locally do it. If you can find an example where the church operated any way but locally show me. You can not! Paul did not rebuke these two men previous mentioned, he delivered them to satan. That is far different my friend. It is amazing that you send me verses proving my point. Timothy was ordained as the Bishop not a Bishop. He was the overseer. That is referring to the local Body of Ephesus. He was not a Bishop of the entire body. Only Christ is that. Your comment on servant hood of the Bishop has no relevance to their authority to the local body. Did not Christ become servant of all unto death. Death is the greatest example of servant hood you can give. Does that mean he has no authority. No! Absurd! He is at the Father’s right hand. Does that mean he did not have authority over men on earth. No! That is obvious. He was even called master. How could the greatest example of servant suffering ever be a master? You need to rethink your logic. How can you say that assembling together the way that believers did in the new testament is non Biblical? I would say doing your own thing is non biblical. What do you think of apostasy? Don’t you think that moving away from non traditional doctrines and practices of worship in these last days is apostasy. The Lord said this would happen. You are the the one who has turned aside not me. Study how the church operated in the 1700’s and 1800’s. It is not like today. You are in the majority by far! We are not as we once were and it is not the traditional churches that have changed. You are independent of God and His word. Being a priest by position does not give you authority to act as you would. It is contradictory to say every christian ought to have someone under him and say we ought to serve everyone and then tell me “we have no authority but ourselves”. If we have no authority but ourselves then who is supposed to be under us? who are you under?
John thank you for your words and I thank everyone who reads this blog. Every one of you reading are the kind of people who research the words of Jesus so praise the lord for Joining this electronic fellowship. All my challenges to you and everyone else are not from an expert but from somone who loves the church of Jesus. I could be wrong so investigate and please correct anything this site says as you feel lead by Jesus. Thank you Jon for your challenges. But now back to challenging the money tithe doctrine which is a large purpose of this site.
Who said that every christian must have a local bishop? Dose not a Christian leader mean that that leader is the most humble and willing to suffer.
I see this most often in missionaries. Missionary is a term not found in the Bible but the word aptly describes the Apstles and Jesus better that the disrespected term preacher which is synonomus with pastor today. Money tithes are mostly controled by those called pastors in America. I think pastors should be more like missionaries and Jesus who never told Christians to money tithe to each other.
John I will research the word titehoso but I have not done that yet. thank you for that position but I cannot comment on what I have not researched.
The goal of this site is to experience more love in Jesus and to spread that love to the world. John I am under the love of Jesus who is in me and an older gentlman who is my dear friend Carl Eastvold Superintendant of Bradshaw Christian School could be called my pastor, elder or Bishop but nobody in the fellowship calls him that. He is our friend. Titles are not sinfull but I think they can and have become very sinfull to many Christians. I think all Christians should do less titles because I believe that naming leaders is more up to Jesus than an organization.
Brother John to be direct I believe that the local Church is where evrery Christian dwells or visits. I alway operate locally but the term local is not in the Bible so why make a doctrine out of it.
Like luther I still stress like the word the priesthood of all believers. I am African American and I have never been Lutheran But early protestats who rejected tithing had many traditions superior to our modern Churches.
Some of The Best Christians that America had were the suffering Slaves who had more less organizational churches than their masters who had organizational churches. Christians in Muslim and Communist countries have less orgainzation than the U.S. but they grow dispite much persicution.
Christian Book stores, Christian Art galleries,Christian radio ministries like Hank hannagraphs Bible anwnser man program and J Vernon Mgee,Homless shelters,Street preachers,Prison fellowships, Home Churches, Chritian Home schools, and chrstian rock and rap bands offer Christian fellowship in an equally valid forms to the proffesional institutional dominant churches. Who says that a Christian cannot tithe(I dont like the word I prefere giving) to these Endevors?
Brother John I know you are very busy and these post have taken you a long time but have you felt our fellowship? Is not this web blogging a kind of fellowship. I beleve that fellowship happens every day. Fellowship is a way of life and is is somthing that Christians do in love more than a local organization.
If I give to Billy Gram ministries or my Christian school what dose it matter in Jesus. Jesus told me to give to the poor in the word in several ways. The good samaritain did not have to wait to go to the local synagog to give. Middle men are usful in many circumstances like the situation of the emergency alms on sunday to help Christians.
However the Bible is not instuting a day to give or a type of organizational giving. Forsake not the assemblings of yourselves.. This dose not mean meet every sunday it could mean every day or meet with christians in your town.
It seems that all the Christians in a given town in the Bible were refered to as a church or mabey somtimes churches but since we all are part of the church is not all fellwoship having Church?
The tithe belongs to the local church doctrine is mearly a tradition of men. Read Pagan Christianity and you might be enlightened to Our myriad of traditions in modern Christianity.
Remember brother John that most of the time after sacrificing an animal it was eaten as a part of worship by the sacrificer and the one giving the sacrifice.
Tithes were like the ancient sacrifices always eaten by somone. In the Old testement were part alms for poor ministers who owned less property, and for the poor, and part celebration for all believers in the one true God. Note that Duteronomy 14:26 makes drinking strong drink (beer and other alcoholic beverages)part of what could be tiths and consumed to celebrate the lord. What would be your stance if I as a member of your fellowship gave you a beer as my offering to Jesus?
In my fellwoship we eat and drink together and have increacingly deep relationships in Jesus. We can hold each other accoutable and teach each other. Traditions are to a minimum but all fellowships have traditions. Buildings are traditions and Chiors are traditions But I am not agianst tradition exept where they bind people to obey the rules of men.
Communion in the New testement was part of a meal not a cracker and grape juice but bread and wine eaten together by true friends.
We are the Chrurch. We have one ministry the love of Jesus. Do you think the Bible ordains a speacial day of the week for Christians to operate or every day of the week. Do you think that the Bible says that Christians are suppose to have holy places or is the entire world holy for Christians?
Do you think that Christian leaders like teachers and pastors have unequal athority in Jesus? I have a person whom I look to as my Spiritual leader locally and I suppose almost evry Christian should look to somone locally. However this person is my Friend, Brother and I never call him pastor. Carl Eastfold speaks the most at our fellwoship at Bradshaw Christian School in Sacramento CA. but like Jesus his ministry is far more a relationship and not primarily organizational.
Christian leaders are to be friends. This is the only kind that I would trust my money with.
It is hard for me to imagine a true friend who expects me to give them 10% of my cash every sunday. Is that an equal relationship I think the New tesement argues for a better kind of fellowship. I am not Quaker but I think their term for Friends aptly applys to Christian fellowhsip. They are against Tithes and greatly minimize orgaizational hierarchical leadership.
That seems to go against the kind of Christian servant leadership instuted in the New testement. I am not Church of Christ but I think that their saying where the scripures speak loudly we should speak loudly.
Thank you John for your discourse It helps me to further meditate on the word. I will re read your post. I know I have said alot but if John you or anyone has learned from these post please reply.
Christ in us.
I am about as far removed from a legalist as one can be in a conservative holiness circle, but I find all this debate on tithing a little disheartening. Jesus did say obey the teachings of the religious leaders of his day, he talked more about money than hell, and he paid the temple tax. Yes, He came as the fulfillment of the law and yes he demonstrated actions that almost looked like they flew in the face of the law (Sabbath issues, mainly), but to show us that we are to focus on the heart of the law, not the letter of it. What was the purpose of the tithe? You focus on the letter and minutia of the law by quoting the priests eating from it. The heart of the law of tithing is to support the functions of the church, which today translates into pastor and staff AND compassion ministries and education ministries and missions trips and electric bills, and on and on. The needs are there and to minister to the needs of people God sends resources through people. All of this concentration on whether the tithe is still law or not seems much like the rich young man saying “what MUST I do to be saved?” or in other words, “What is the least I can do without not being saved?” That is not God’s heart and I think you would agree. I agree that we should give as the Holy Spirit directs and that is the rule of thumb that will fulfill the heart of the Law and the heart of God if we truly do practice that. But be careful – it may take you way PAST a mere ten percent!!! The bottom line is that it is ALL God’s and He gifts it to us to be good stewards and enjoy the benefits of being good stewards of His provision for us. The minute God does not own the money and we do, the money owns us.
Thankyou Dan for your imput and I checked a little on the Wesleyan site. I was once a regular attender at a Weslian fellowship.
God owns it all my Weslean friend this site is primarily against preachers or anyone who expect 10% of their fellow Christians money. Dan You seem to believe that ministries can happen in multiple ways. I am in 95% agreement with your post. Almost everyone I have read on this site thinks Jesus owns all of our money. Our differences are mearly who can claim rights to another Christians money. Only Jesus has that right.
Duteronomy 14:23-28 Describes tithes as missions, celebrations and supporting priest with food. The Forced 10%Christian Money tithes is the bad part not giving.
Christ in us!
Thanks for your reply. You are correct – we are in overall agreement. One point of clarification, though: I do not believe that the the church can claim a RIGHT to anyone else’s money (which we have both already established isn’t theirs anyway) as that is Jesus’s right alone. I merely believe the church still has the IDENTITY of the storehouse in Malachi 3:10 that Jesus seems to have honored in paying the temple tax. It may seen like straining over gnats, but it is the difference between submission to man and obedience to God, which again is a heart issue. If you believe tithing is mere submission to man (which Paul also wrote about ie: submitting to the authorities placed in responsibility of us) you will be obviously more prone not to trust the use of the motives of those receiving, since even redeemed mankind is capable of sin. However if you view it as obedience to God by bringing into His storehouse it is a no-brainer that direction. In either case God is big enough to handle any misdirection of funds on either end and bless the intention of the heart of the giver and supply the needs of his people through our imperfect interpretations of His will. We just always need to be mindful that the Word says “the heart is deceptive above all things, who can know it.” Obviously only God can know it perfectly. So the heart issue is again always who has the right to say where the money goes and that would be the owner, which is not me or the church or anyone else but Jesus. When I give tithes and offerings above the tithe, I don’t do so out of compulsion or obligation, but from a place of loving obedience, placing my faith and trust in God to be good on His word. Anyone who can’t do that probably better of to not tithe because it will most likely not be a blessing to them or anyone else. Blessings to you, my brother. I do hope at some point you feel compelled to spend more of your passion for the Lord in accomplishing the Great Commission that fighting how others are trying to. That is where I intend to spend my efforts. God’s best to you and all who serve Him from your viewpoint.
Dan,
Thanks for stopping by. I wanted to bring attention to the storehouse/church issue. I understand the correlation between the church building and the temple and how both have been the central place where worship took place, and where ministers performed their duties. But even though the church building is functionally similar to the temple in those aspects, the church building does not correlate with the core purpose of the storehouse.
The storehouse, was a “store” “house”. The church building is not a ‘store’ house. Sure, we can bring the offerings in, but they are not “stored” in the building as the offerings were stored in the old testament.
You might think this is petty difference, but i assure you that what you have overlooked is much bigger. You see, the old testament storehouse directly correlates with our storehouse in heaven. Look at Jesus direct words in Matthew 6:19
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.”
First off, your reply assign the building as the church; the church is the gathering of people who gather in the building, not the church itself. Like the church in Acts the money is brought into the “church” and the administrators make sure the needs within the church are met. Secondly the “storehouse” in Malachi has little if any correlation to the words of Jesus. The storehouse is not where we lay up treasures for OURSELVES, but where we gather God’s provision to accomplish His work. you seem to have little trouble floating between the abstract and concrete and using scripture out of context to prooftest your opinions. Try finding a narrative within God’s Word that backs up your position and I will be more apt to take it more seriously. The naratives are placed in God’s Word to show us life application. For instance, how does the widow’s mite correlate with your seeming assertion that 10% is a burden on believers?
Dan,
In your words: “I merely believe the church still has the IDENTITY of the storehouse”. In light of your accusation upon me, where have you established scripture for this belief of yours?
I see your point in that a storehouse is not laying up treasure for OURSELVES. At the same time a store house is a “STORE” house. The gathering of believers, nor the building in which they assemble is not a storage house. Sure, we collect money when we’re assembled, but our assembly does not perform the function of a storehouse. A bank, deposit box, or a silo, is a storehouse.
What position of mine do you want a narrative on?
The widow’s mite is a hypothetical situation, and cannot be universal proof that giving 10% of our income couldn’t possibly burden anyone.
Giving 10% of one’s income is an insignificant part of the burden that i speak of anyways. The burden is the dictating attributes of tithing.
We want the Church to be filled with the Spirit, called by the Spirit, and controlled by the Spirit, but before we reach this destination we want tithing to dictate our giving before the Spirit can. Does this make sense for believers baptized in God’s Spirit?
Out of all the scriptures that speak of giving in the early church, you do not find one model application to confirm the tithe and offerings dichotomy. And yet you want “ME” to find a life application for what i believe?
Our access directly to God by his Spirit should have relinquished us from the dichotomous nature of giving we find in the Old Testament.
– jared
Gets heated, don’t it?
Can I add my 10cents worth? I’m here to testify that after reading the Malachi 3 passage on robbing God, I was struck by that. Since that date [~25 years] I have never missed a tithe, and God has never missed a blessing poured from the windows of heaven. My business went from technical bankruptcy to healthy profit and Mary and I have never wanted for any thing.
I believe this qualifies me to say that tithing is not dead. I reserve the right to direct all or any part of my tithe to whatever the Spirit leads me, and I have a lot of reservation about handing tithe money to those who would use it to plug up woodworm holes, in decaying monuments and pay fat-cat administrators. That said; I believe in putting the principle of tithing in place, not the letter of some [interpreted] scripture.
I believe the essence of this debate could be summed up in this aphorism: “You can NOT out-give God”
Rhys,
What would you say to those who have faithfully paid tithe with a good heart and find themselves deeper and deeper in debt? How would Malachi 3 apply to them? It would seem that they are under a curse even though they have been tithing faithfully.
Saying, ‘you cannot out-give God’ is just a bunch of rhetoric. Whether you like it or not, there are repercussions for giving too much away. or giving money away that’s intended for bills.
I agree tithe; neglecting bills and debts to pay a mandated tithe is irresponsible and an example of a bad stewardship of what God has blessed you with.
Let’s see…pay my electric bill or give it to my church to pay theirs?
My apologies for being absent the last few days while on vacation with relatives. I would hate for you or anyone else to think I agreed with your last deflection and subsequent misdirection. First of all you ask for biblical proof that the church has the identity of the storehouse. As I would expect, you deflect from what my meaning really was. The church is the body of Christ with Christ as the head and is therefore the storehouse – the money belongs to Christ (you yourself acquiesced that it all belongs to God) and bringing it to the church (the body of believers with Christ as the head) is merely putting it in the hands of the one who owns it to be used for His purposes. This matched what the New Testament believers did, although they would appear to be much more generous than many of their contemporary counterparts.
Secondly, you keep straining on making the concept of the storehouse a building or institution. Might I remind you that idea does not negate the ownership of the money and is again a misdirection from the truth of the matter. The bank may be the depository, but the accounts are the property of the church and the funds in them the property of the Christ. The fact that the monies are STORED there has no bearing on either of those issues, but since you are dedicated to straining on gnats of your own making, remember that by the fees paid by the bank for storing and maintaining the funds and accounts, the bank is in one sense a rented security vault used by the church (making it an extension of the church facilities) and in another sense a contracted worker (or workers) to administrate said funds and as such, a paid servant of the temple, as it were. You are inventing discrepancies for your own purposes that are only descepancies because you define them as such.
Thirdly, the widow’s mite is NOT a hypothetical situation, but a real-life drama played out before the eyes of Jesus and His disciples – now you misquote scripture to promote your own agenda. I never invoked it as a proof for a 10% tithe, but asked the question as to how it correlated to your seeming assertion that 10% would be an undue burden on a believer. You ask me to provide universal proof that 10% is not an undue burden. In truth the burden of proof is on you, because you are the one who is asking others to take a path away from what they believe scripture clearly directs. Can you give universal proof that God does not want what He once stated He required? But, on the danger of taking a personal conviction of my own and making it law for others (which, by the way is what you are doing by telling others that they have no biblical directive to tithe), let me instead say this: I do not tithe because of compulsion or under the oppression of a dead law. I tithe out of personal conviction that that is what God wants me to do. It is Spirit led, and you say that is what you want people to be. I am. You have to grant that action to me and all who feel led of the Holy Spirit to do so. You can’t have it both ways. And you do not have the right or knowledge to tell others that God is not leading them to do that. This is less about law (since neither position can be 100% proven by scripture) and mostly about conviction. So I have to allow for God to lead others in ways that I do not line up with my personal convictions as to how God has directed me to give, and so do you. You call yourself Freewillgiver. I am too. My tithe is mine to lay down and I do, of my own free will in alignment with my personal conviction and my sense of the Spirit’s direction. You have the freedom to do the same. My caution to all of us is that God rarely leads us to be LESS generous with Him or others. And it would seem that He rarely rewards that behavior as well. He says give and it will be given to you in good measure pressed down and overflowing. That is Jesus’ teaching, not mine. We often give in direct relation to how much we trust that promise. The invitation in Malachi from God is to test Him and see if tithing isn’t something He will honor and bless us for. Why is it so abhorrent to you to test God to tell if He’s telling the truth when he invites us to do so. So don’t do it if you don’t want to. But don’t deny me the right to make that decision for myself or try to debunk the way He’s blessed me in response.
Finally, our financial giving is most often an indicator of ownership of our life in general. In other words, I think that Jesus talked a lot about money because it was something concrete that we could put numbers to and see, whereas much of our lives can be abstract and easily rationalized. The question with the whole of our lives is the same, it can just be measured more easily with clear numbers on a piece of paper. How much of our lives do we hang onto and demand our rights to. It has all been given to us and it’s easy to say it all belongs to God and we are just the caretakers, but when push comes to shove are we ready to lay down our lives or any portion of them for Christ as He laid down His for us? It is always our choice, just as it was Jesus’ choice to lay down His life for us. In terms of making a choice between paying bills or our tithe as some of you seem to love to point to or going in deeper debt to tithe, YOU are the ones now quoting hypotheticals. I don’t believe God intends us to bail on debts and not be people of integrity. I do think we honor Him by taking steps to lighten our debt load so we can give more for His work in whatever way we feel directed. (For me, that’s tithing, PLUS.) My debt load has gone both up and down during my journey with tithing, but it is not a reflection of God’s unfaithfulness to His promise, rather my stupid financial decisions, of which one of them isn’t tithing. Tithing has been the constant, the other decisions have not. My bad choices are the source of my debt load, not my tithing. And you would be hard pressed to find a lot of contrary concrete proof to the contrary with anyone else, but abstract platitudes serve your agenda well, so you’re welcome to them. But, your belief doesn’t disprove my experience, so it is up to everyone out there to make their own choice. Do they want to try it and find out if their experience matches mine and countless others’ and test God as He invites them to and find out if it is valid or not, or just trust that you are right? My invitation is for everyone to not trust you OR me! Just decide in their hearts if they are open to testing God in an area where he laid out an open invitation. Why does that chaff you off so much? Are you putting anywhere near the effort into introducing people to Jesus that you are in trying to promote your own “box” to put God in? If not, why not? Is God more concerned where people money goes than where people’s souls go? I wish I was more convinced of your motives. Help me out here. How does this have any substantial purpose in the Great Commission OR the Great Commandment. Or do they not matter either? If you hate tithing so much, perhaps you would prefer the generosity and sacrificial giving of God’s people in Acts chapter two who would sell their property and lay ALL of the money for the sale at the feet of the disciples to distribute and meet the needs within the church. However you want to choose to give, just do it for God’s sake, for the kingdom’s sake and for other’s sake, and do it cheerfully! If you can. Many of us can and do. And it brings us joy that the money we could have kept couldn’t buy. I’m sorry of you are unable to share in that joy. Blessed is the man who gives away what he does not own to posses that which he could never buy. Sorry – I couldn’t resist using an abstract platitude. I always do my best to meet people where they are. Blessings, Brother.
Dan
Your accusations about me show that you have misunderstood what i have said. I could respond by each accusation but i think I am probably going to just agree that we disagree. Instead, i would just like to relay how i have found scripture illustrates and defines Spirit led giving.
I believe our instructions on giving should be led by the Spirit. Which i believe scripture defines as giving sacrificially, liberally, freely, faithfully, cheerfully and without written law, and can be changed spontaneously.
Hi Tithe
“Saying, ‘you cannot out-give God’ is just a bunch of rhetoric. ”
I did qualify that as an aphorism. Can I now please rephrase that [possibly flip] comment? My experience is that whenever I am moved to give more than usual, I am always matched by His blessing. Is that clearer?
“What would you say to those who have faithfully paid tithe with a good heart and find themselves deeper and deeper in debt?”
No more than I have said. My 25 years of fruitful personal experience of “…I will open the windows of heaven for you and pour down a blessing until there is no more need” as I related in my comment says all I want to say. I would not presume to tell any one how to interact with [their] God. However, further discussion with your hypothetical person might disclose a need for budget advice, whatever…….
May I further agree with your definition in your last post to Dan “I believe our instructions on giving should be led by the Spirit. Which i believe scripture defines as giving sacrificially, liberally, freely, faithfully, cheerfully and without written law, and can be changed spontaneously..”? I have found the 10% [tithe] notion a convenient starting point.