Did Abraham Tithe Before the Law?

Tithing on Trial

As we continue our ‘Tithing on Trial’ series, we will evaluate the most common tithing arguments used to defend its practice.

Argument # 11 – Abraham Tithed 430 Years Prior to the Law

The argument here is that Abraham tithed prior to the law of Moses, therefore it should be continued since it was outside of the fulfilled law of the Old Testament.  To me, the cross fulfilled laws beyond the Mosaic law, but I understand that some don’t see it that way.

The Mosaic Law

Abraham did tithe before the Mosaic law, but that shouldn’t satisfy any answers regarding tithing. Was the Mosaic law the only portion of Old Testament laws that were fulfilled by the cross; and does this mean that any laws inside or outside those bounds are subject to fulfillment in the New Testament? The Sunday Sabbath, clean animals, animal sacrifices, & circumcision were all practiced prior to the Mosaic law, and yet they are excluded from New Testament practices. When you look at these four laws, you realize tithing isn’t an exclusive pre-mosaic ordinance.

The problem with basing our current practices on any practice that was pre-mosaic is that you are defending a practice based on a marker that is proven to be insignificant for the NT Church. NT Scripture wasn’t compelled to mention that clean meats, animal sacrifices, & circumcision were not required just because the change in law had to be reiterated in the New Church Covenant. The cross nullified those laws because pre-mosaic practices had no consequence for the Church in the first place. God’s instructions were not this – “I want you to obey all the laws that came before Moses, with the exception of sacrifices, clean meats & circumcision”. There was no need to add amendments to the New Covenant.  Simply put – clean meats, sacrifices and circumcision are dead laws because of Calvary, not because the NT happened to clarify it for us after Calvary.

It was Adam Not Moses

Scripture focuses on when sin entered the world through one man and when the penalty of sin was paid for by another.  Christ didn’t die on the cross to save us from the Mosaic law; he died because of Adam’s flaw. The focus of Christ’s death was about the law of sin and death that was introduced by Adam not the law that was introduced by Moses. The bible focuses so much on the Mosaic law because the Hebrew culture was so saturated with it in their every-day life. Because of this, we unintentionally forget that Christ wasn’t here to fulfill the Mosaic laws. If he only did that, it would be great news for the Jews but not for the gentiles since it wasn’t the Mosaic law that gentiles were slaves to.

So Let’s Follow Abraham’s Example

Let’s say for a moment that we are to follow Abraham’s example prior to the Law of Moses. There are two big problems with this.

First, Abraham only gave from the spoils of war and not from his own wealth. Hebrews chapter 7 clarifies that Abraham Gave Melchizedek the spoils of war. There is no mention that he gave anything from his own wealth. Maybe he just tithed for the week so he was already paid up except for the spoils of war. I don’t know. You tell me.

Second, Israel was instructed to give 1/500th of the spoils of war (Numbers 31). If tithing is really a permanent ordinance then why was Israel instructed specifically by God to give less from their increase? If Abraham’s practice was not binding enough for God to ask Israel to do it, then why is it even considered binding for a New Testament Church, after Calvary, & led by the Holy Spirit?

A Look at Jacob’s Tithing vow

Abraham wasn’t the only occurrence of tithing prior to the Mosaic law, Jacob made a tithing vow to God as well. So, his example also shines some light on this topic also. We did an in-depth study on Jacob’s tithing vow here: Part 1 & Part 2. So I don’t want to go too deep into this. I just want to highlight a valid point that pertains to the current topic.

Jacob’s vow indicates that tithing was not required because he willingly offered it. You can’t offer God something that was already required in the first place and get away with pulling a fast-one. Abraham’s example doesn’t indicate whether tithing was required or not, but we can know for certain through Jacob’s example that it wasn’t. What do you use to determine biblical doctrine? Would it be the the facts found in Jacob’s example or would it be speculation through Abraham’s?

You Be The Judge

Now it’s time for the jury to weigh in:

Does Abraham's example before the Mosaic law mean we should tithe?

View Results

Loading ... Loading ...

Jared Bartholomew is the author of www.tithing.com. There are over 300 articles written on research and reviews about tithing information.

Posted in Questions Tagged with: , ,
95 comments on “Did Abraham Tithe Before the Law?
  1. Cathy Blanchard says:

    Thank You so much for the blog regarding reasons not to tithe.
    I tried a new church this morning and the sermon was on tithing 10% of your income or else God will not bless your income.
    I left hopping MAD. I am disabled and living on only social security. Thank You, Thank You for telling me the real truth.
    You lifted an 800 pound weight off my shoulders.
    Cathy :-)

    • John says:

      really?
      Cathy, kindly Read this:

      Hebrews 7:8

      “In the one case, the tenth is collected by people [mortal such as the Levites priests] who die;

      but in the other case, by him [Melchizedek priest/resurrected Jesus/immortal] who is declared to be living.”

      Jesus never collected tithes when he was a human being.
      but the message of Paul made it clear that Jesus who became our high priest must collect the tithe from his people.

      under this circumstance of Hebrew 7:8 shall we tithe or not?

      pls, use all the necessary time to review Hebrew 7 and rectify of what u have learned. thanks.

      • John Too says:

        John,

        By inserting comments into the scripture you have twisted it. There is legitimate debate about whether Melchizedek was the preincarnate Christ, or a type of Christ. I, by the way, fall on the type side, because (1) he would have sitting as the king of Salem for many years (meaning Christ had an extended Earthly life as a human being prior to his incarnation–something that is incompatible with scripture).

        You are also proof-texting (taking a single verse out of context)–a serious error. In context, that verse isn’t about tithing, it is about establishing the legitimacy of Jesus’ priesthood. The Jews of the day would not accept Jesus as a priest, because he was not in the line of Aaron. That section of Hebrews (all of Hebrews 7–read it in context) is about establishing the fact that God created other priestly lines besides the line of Aaron, so that Jesus should be considered a legitimate priest.

        • john says:

          Jared advised me to stop talking too much that advocates tithe.
          i guess i don’t need to take this up again over and over when no one seemed to listen to what i said.

          1 Corinthians 13:1
          If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal

          i think hebrew 7:8 is clear enough for all of us to read that the tithe has not been abrogated even in the time of Paul.
          it only switches hand from Levitical priests authority to Melchizedek which was assumed by Christ after his resurrection. the example given that i made in my previous post is the answer for your doubt. thank you.

          • Jared advised me to stop talking too much that advocates tithe.

            if you’re going to torture us with the rambling & blabbering that goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

            At least have the courtesy to not lie about what i said.

  2. John says:

    For some reasons to believe tithe is eternal.
    the bible does not have any record of when did this law have started and how did thing arrive in tenths?

    The bible lacks space to explain the origin of this law. unlike the Sabbath it was in existence eternally.

    notice of what Jesus said in Mathew 6:10:
    “your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”

    Anything that came into existence on earth was produced from out of the will of God.

    “On earth AS IT IS in heaven” is a brief phrase that opened up the mystery of this tithing laws.

    so it is, therefore, to have set up in heaven FIRST long before the creation of the earth. we can expect that angels in heaven are governed by this law too and one thing that this law was never included under the first covenant.
    so it’s eternally binding to last until the end of times.

    “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished”

  3. John Too says:

    John,

    Stop tithing & follow Christ.

    Tithing is only eternal, because it is part of God’s Law, and God’s Law is eternal. It is also true that anyone who tries to keep the Law (even just one part, like tithing) is damned, because it is a rejection Christ’s work on the cross.

    You cannot be under the Law and in Christ. Which do you believe:

    1) God will bless me, because I tithe
    2) God will bless me, because I am covered by the blood of Christ

    If you believe #1, then you are rejecting #2. The blood of Jesus is enough–all by itself–to secure ALL of God’s blessings–100%. If you believe that YOUR tithing will secure a blessing from God (even just one little, tiny-tiny blessing) then you are rejecting Christ’s work on the cross.

    All who reject Christ will be thrown into the lake of fire. This includes “faithful tithers” who believe God will bless them for tithing.

    Stop putting your faith in tithing to secure God’s blessings and start putting your faith in Christ to secure God’s blessings.

    Stop tithing & follow Christ.

    Tithing is a rejection of Christ. All who reject Christ by tithing will be thrown into the lake of fire.

    you cannot believe that God will belss you because you tithe and follow

    • John says:

      putting faith on tithe?

      of course not!
      but faith does not disregard the law of tithe, remember that.

      Romans 3:31
      Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

      • John says:

        “Tithing is a rejection of Christ. All who reject Christ by tithing will be thrown into the lake of fire.”

        who said? you?
        maybe, believing to your own biblical misrepresentation will get the people to hell.

        so how do u understand Heb 7:8?

        “In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die;
        but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.”

        keep in mind that whenever the pronoun “him” was used we referred this to Jesus most especially in Hebrew 7.

        Heb 7:8 expresses a comparison of two persons authorizes to take tithes.

        we have the Levite priests who are mortals and we have Melchizedek priest who is immortal assumed by the resurrected jesus Christ.

        so if we rephrase Paul’s wordings from his recorded message this would be his message to the people. listen!

        “In one case, the tenth is collected by the Levite priests who never last;

        but in another case, by Jesus, our Melchizedek who possessed an eternal life. ”

        under this circumstance, shall we tithe? or not?

        it’s your choice whether to believe in your Christ or in My CHRIST.

        • Tanya says:

          HOW do you tithe to your Melchisedek Christ, John? The way Abram did, directly and PERSONALY TO HIM, without middle men? If not -you are doing the Old covenant way when all the tithes were ending up in the hands of man, descendants of Abram – Levites! Jesus is NOT descendant of Abram. (Abram got Ishmael by Hagar!) By flesh, Jesus is not descendant of Abraham either: “before Abraham was – I AM”, remember? HOW does your CHRIST receive your “tithes”? Melchisedek is entitled to collect them by being BODILY resurrected! Do your “pastors” to whom you tithe have this essential quality of being unique, one and only resurrected King and High Priest. Don’t think so.

          • John says:

            you said: “You didn’t answer another important question: HOW do you tithe to your Melchizedek Christ based on an example of Abram? Hebrews says that „our High Priest is NOT on earth“? ??”

            What was the thing I said from my previous post? probably you need to review my answer again.
            for the last time here it is again,

            [For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for ONE of the least of these BROTHERS and SISTERS of mine, YOU DID for ME.’]
            -Mathew 25:35-40

            What was the conclusion he made in Mathew 25?

            [whatever you did for ONE of the least of these BROTHERS and SISTERS of mine, YOU DID for ME]

            the logic is there that the tithe would be paid to the church and the church that Jesus built means “the call out ones” meaning the people.

            so whatever you did to these people whether it be of tithe or any form of payment YOU ARE DOING THIS FOR JESUS CHRIST. it takes for a person with the logical power to understand his message. in fact it has long been handed over to Peter this issue of payment.

            “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “FEED MY LAMBS.” – John 21:15

      • John Too says:

        “John says:
        12/10/15 at 12:51 am

        putting faith on tithe? of course not! but faith does not disregard the law of tithe, remember that.

        Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.”

        So let me get this straight. You ARE saying:

        (1) Tithing is part of the law
        (2) You are upholding the law by tithing

        Is that correct? If so, then how do you reconcile that with other statements, such as:

        “Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.” Galatians 5:2-3

        “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” James 2:10

        Keeping even just one law (like the law of tithing) obligates you to keep all of the law, but since keeping all of the law is impossible, you are damned–simply for keeping one law (the law of tithing).

        If that isn’t correct, tell me why?

        IMHO, your core problem is you don’t understand what is meant by the idea of Jesus fulfilling the law. It means the law ran its full course. Consider the steps in the life of a law:

        1) A law is created
        2) A person strives to keep the law
        3) That person eventually breaks the law (because it is impossible for humans to keep)
        4) That person is condemned as a criminal
        5) That person is punished according to the law

        When a law goes through all 5 steps, then it is fulfilled. We deserve #5 (punishment), but Jesus took out place and took on our punishment. Thus the law was fulfilled–it went through all 5 steps–with Jesus fulfilling the final step (#5). We do uphold the law, by acknowledging that a broken law requires punishment. That’s why we thank Jesus for taking on the punishment we deserve.

        But, when you insist on keep any of the law (like tithing) you go back to step #2. You completely set aside Christ’s work on the cross, and instead strive to keep the law yourself. Something the Bible says is impossible.

        Since you are focused on Hebrews 7, I suggest you keep reading onto Hebrews 8 (and read it all–in context). Hebrews 7 & 8 together can be summed up by the last line:

        “When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” Hebrews 8:13

        The law (including the law of tithing) is part of the Old Covenant–which the Bible flatly says is obsolete. How can something obsolete be of any help to anyone.

        The Old Covenant is based on the law. The New Covenant is based on the blood of Christ. The New Covenant is everlasting. The Old Covenant is obsolete and fading away.

        Why are you choosing the Old Covenant; why are you choosing the law of tithing over the blood of Christ?

        • john says:

          ““When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” Hebrews 8:13”

          i think you lacked something here that’s why the word covenant remained unclear to so many.
          the meaning of covenant implied a formal agreement between two or more parties to perform or not perform some action. this only mean that it has nothing to do with the commandment of God. it’s just an agreement between Israel and God. As this agreement expired it won’t necessary mean it invalidated the law of God.

          the commandment is owned by God like a property. it served as a condition to fulfill in exchange for the promise whatever he made under this agreement.

          Let’s say, “work for me and i will pay you” payment is a condition and work is the promise. as soon as the agreement no longer valid it won’t mean the owner lost his money to pay. that’s the way it works.

          the truth is, tithe is not a part of this agreement. because before the Mosaic rule came into existence Abraham paid his tenth to God. it has no history of beginning and no record to show how it ended up in tenths.

          it proves that it existed long before humanity was born.
          Jesus’ word, “…your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”

          if this tenth is God’s will then how do you describe his tithe in Mathew 6:10?
          you may guess that it was imposed first in heaven then on earth.

          • Tanya says:

            Tithe was never “imposed” by God! Where do you read in the Bible that God required tithe from anyone prior to the Law? Nowhere! Abram didn’t have Holy Spirit to “know” eternal principles of God! Otherwise he wouldn’t have broken another “eternal principles”, like the one about one man & one woman! Also, Abram didn’t keep 9/10 for himself to live on. Why don’t you follow in his footsteps consistently, and give away 10/10? Abram limited God by number 10. Which shows his law mentality. Proof? He pleaded for 10 righteous in Sodom. Why 10 when in the grace period 1 righteous ONE is enough for saving the WORLD? Also, after being 10 years in Canaan, Abram agreed to Sarai’ suggestion to have kid with Hagar. 10, 10, 10… legalism, legalism, legalism

          • John says:

            you said: Tithe was never “imposed” by God! Where do you read in the Bible that God required tithe from anyone prior to the Law?

            And where do you think this tithing practices originated from? if this tithe was the result of Assyrian influence then there must be the reason for Abraham to explain his action.

            What was the advice of Paul about pagan practices?

            “No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.” – 1 Cor 10:20

            however, God accepted Abraham’s gift. it only means that the tithe he offered was not a pagan influence just as what had Paul explained.

            The origin of this tenth being practiced by the world is still a MYSTERY!

            But for those who had the power of God’s knowledge knew exactly where it came from and I finally learned that it came out to exist during a thousand years period given to Adam before the flood came.

      • Tanya says:

        If you start “upholding the law”, you should go all the way in respecting all 600 and some precepts! All or curse, bro! Abram tithed directly and personally to one and only King and Priest Melchisedek! There was no man between 2 of them. If Abram is someone’s pro-tithe argument, that person should be consistent and do it Abram’s way all the way. But it is impossible to do it, besides being obsolete too. Impossible because our Melchisedek is in heaven not on earth (Hebrews 8:4). WHO receives than all these „tithes“ that are being collected on the earth now? Certainly not our Melchisedek, unlike in Abram’s case! Melchisedeks body, Church, is on the earth, yes– and that’s why New Testament does not talk about tithing, but sharing. As the whole body shares everything that goes through the mouth.
        Also, if Abra(ha)m is our pro-tithe argument …well… then christians should get literaly circumcised too, even more so than they should respect tithing!! Circumcision was given to „father Abraham“ (not to Abram!) as a sign and „seal of righteousness by faith“, as Romans 4 :11 reveals it! Vau, righteousness by faith! And yet Paul in Galatians dismisses physical circumcision altogether! Paul says: „If you let yourselves be circumcised Christ will be of no value to you.“ What?!? Apostle Paul forgot his own revelation about circumcision being pre-Law, given to father Abraham by God, as a „seal of righteousness by faith“?!?! But tithing – unlike circumcision- is never mentioned in the NT as a sign, seal, or whatever in connection with righteousness by faith! Our worship is based on the covenant of faith.
        So if tithing, obviously, is NOT a part of the covenant of faith – then tithing CANNOT be an expression of worship either!

        • John says:

          [WHO receives than all these „tithes“ that are being collected on the earth now?]

          Tanya, how do you read this biblical example of jesus?

          For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for ONE of the least of these BROTHERS and SISTERS of mine, YOU DID for ME.’

          -Mathew 25:35-40

          …..so much

          • Tanya says:

            John, You are mixing giving out of love with tithing! Giving has to do with love – tithing has to do with Law! Jesus did not require tithing, nor asked money for Himself, but for the poor!! Jesus received from “women who sustained Him”, yes, but it was not sollicited on His part! Millions of light years away from our modern-day tithe preachers!

          • John says:

            [You are mixing giving out of love with tithing! ]

            No Tanya, Love consists the law of God. in fact, it is one of the fruits of the spirit and that fruit fulfills the laws of God.

            ” love is the fulfillment of the law -Romans 13:10″

            this also fell the same of what Paul said in Romans 8:4;

            “God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit -Romans 8:4”

            So the law has its own requirements and that requirements are the fruits of the spirit.

            “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness – Gal 5:22”

            Now let’s interpret Jesus’ statement in Mathew 23:23;

            “You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—JUSTICE, MERCY and FAITHFULNESS. You should have practiced the last, without neglecting the first”

            See what he said that the law of tenth requires Justice, Mercy and Faithfulness and faithfulness is one of the fruits of the spirit which is written in Gal 5:22.

            any teaching beyond to this point came from the false Christ.

          • Tanya says:

            Again you mix tithing with giving out of love for „the least of brothers and sister“ ! TITHE ?GIVING! In New Covenant in Chris’s blood we are not called to „tithe“ but to give generously, „according to our means“ because aim is for no one to be „hard pressed“ but to be „equality“, as Paul says in 2nd Corinthias 8. We are called to share and partake, taking care of those who are less fortunate among brothers – read Acts, especially first chapters! That’s commendable and in spirit of God’s love and compassion! Wonderful if your church gives generously to „the least of brothers and sisters“, praise God!! But does your so called „tithe“ really go generously to those who are hungry, thirsty, naked in the body of Christ… and strangers too? It is not misused mainly to „feed“ and “sustain” well-fed, rich preachers (who aim to get gain for themselves on pretense of false tithe doctrine) and only shameful percentage they give for the poor, hungry etc.)? If it is not so as I wrote in my last line, praise God! !!But please, dont justify your false doctrine behind Jesus noble words that had nothing to do with tithing!

          • John says:

            Tanya said: Again you mix tithing with giving out of love for „the least of brothers and sister“ ! TITHE ?GIVING!

            wow, Tanya! haven’t u read what Paul has said in Romans 13:10 that Love is an essential component in fulfilling the law of God?

            ” love is the fulfillment of the law.”

            I’m sorry, even if I read the whole book of Acts there’s not a slight thing to convince me that the Law of tithe was done away. this is a big set back for those unbelievers of the tithe. Yet we found Jesus preaching this tithe law and handed down to Paul by promoting it in Hebrew 7:8.

            I posted many times that giving in faith won’t supersede the law of tithe. in fact, it’s just the opposite of what I read it in Romans 3:31.

            “Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.”

            if we go on to accept ur kind of teachings without to consider Malachi’s warning, how would you accept God’s behavior in handling his judgment?

            here it is, He issued death on nontithers in Malachi 4 and that fateful judgment for wrong doers still lies in the future which is estimated at the close of this age.

            can’t u imagine that God imposed death on those breakers and then suddenly here is Jesus removing the laws of God? it’s hard to reconcile these two opposing theory, yet that is the way u accept it as true believing that the curses have resulted from keeping the laws.

            this confusion has gotten out of hand and u are one of the victims of this human craft doctrine.

            now if the tithing law is deem removed in our times, why would God prescribe death on those breakers in Malachi? didn’t Jesus say life is more important in Mathew 6:25?
            Yet we read in Malachi that it is easier to prescribe death than breaking the law?

            so why would God choose death than removing his tithe if he knew that this law was uttered useless? why Tanya?

            the above statements will only prove that ur God is not a righteous judge but a god who committed mistakes. i want u to think about it!

          • Tanya says:

            John,
            yes ” love is the fulfillment of the law.” That’s why Jesus fulfilled it, the only person IN FLESH who could have done it. You want to tell us that YOU, by love, fulfill all other 600 and some precepts of the law besides tithing?! VAU! Remember… ALL .. !! LAW is ONE UNITY… What else besides tithing YOU think you are keeping..by love naturally??? I would really love to hear it. Enlight the audience, I am serious..
            I am writing few pages about Abra(ha)m explaining in detail why his tithe, nor jewish repetitive tithes, are NOT mandatory to us. If you want me to send it to you I will gladly do it when I am done. If not I will try briefly here later.
            Though, I am sory to see how so far you refused all Bible-based insights that only come by discernment by spirit, and cling to superficial reasoning and „letter that kills“. I don’t mean that as an offense at all.
            Now, briefly about Malachi. Malachi is OC. Remember, John 1:17: „For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ“. Law & prophets – ONE UNIT. GRACE AND TRUTH – ONE UNIT. God did not change the essence of the law. Jesus fulfilled it! Malachi 4:4 says: „Remember the law of Moses, my servant… etc.“. Law of Moses! What? Christians are supposed to go back to ALL the precepts? If you literaly do the tithe – then you should do it ALL.
            Malachi 3:6 refers to his audience as „sons of Jacob“! Sons of Jacob – what’s that got to do with us?!?! Gentile christians are NOT sons of Jacob! Or you ASSUME that we are? Remember, it is not flesh, but spirit that counts now.
            So you see, one of the favourite „pro-tithe“ verse (Malachi 3:10) is in sandwich between 2 verses that clearly show how Malachi is not relevant for NT believers!!

          • John says:

            Tanya said: yes ” love is the fulfillment of the law.” That’s why Jesus fulfilled it,

            how on earth did u arrive at this idiotic conclusion? Paul never said that Jesus abolished it in Heb 13:10.

            so don’t say anything beyond to what the bible speaks. i suggest u to let the bible speaks for itself instead of choking it with ur false doctrine.

            Christ said, in the sermon on the mount: “THINK NOT that I am come to destroy the law,” so professing Christians think He did come to destroy it!

            Christ said, in the same sermon on the mount: “Swear not,” so professing Christians universally hold up their right hands and swear.

            Christ said: “LOVE your enemies,” so professing Christians — pretending
            to follow Him, HATE their enemies and go to war to kill them.

            Christ said: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect,” so, professing Christians say, “It’s impossible to keep God’s Law, let alone to be perfect. Christ kept it in our stead, and then abolished it.”

            Christ commands “DO!” — and His professed followers DON’T!
            Christ commands “DON’T! and His professed followers DO!

            Notice what Jesus said in Mathew 5:18,
            For truly I tell you, till HEAVEN and EARTH DISAPPEAR, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means DISAPPEAR from the Law.

            Yet you’re still teaching that the law was done away after jesus death.
            so what makes u say u follow christ when truth is u followed ur ministers that made them higher than ur christ?

            This is a clear mock to God. i hope u have the heart to accept this important truth about his true teachings.

          • John says:

            Tanya said: Now, briefly about Malachi. Malachi is OC. Remember, John 1:17: „For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ“. Law & prophets

            Old covenant? That’s silly old myth has long been debunked and you’re still giving this thing a credit for ur excuses.
            nothing said that Malachi fades after the Old covenant or even his writings. pls feel free to read what was written in his book in Mal 4.

            [Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire]

            When will this be? please read Revelation 20 & compare.

            [Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.]

            Do u still think that Malachi 4 is obsolete? u must be joking!

            Ah yes, he reminded us to remember the writings of Moses. but u tend to forget it, right? where’s ur faith over this statement of God? where Tanya?

            Let’s read Acts 15 for a complete revelation about the gentile converts.

            [ It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. ]

            [Instead, we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from the blood. ]

            [For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” ]

            Ah did u catch it? Moses teachings were still preached during the time of the apostles and make no mistake that the gentiles were advised to abstain them from their unholy things before they mixed together with other jews.
            Acts 15 actually revealed about these converts and to surprise u, it never said that the Gentiles have to do away from the laws of Moses.

            this is a big mistake if u still want to employe ur wrong concept of Jesus doctrine.

            so why did u say that the law of moses was done away when it was still preached even after Jesus resurrection?

        • John says:

          Now for those who were taught not to tithe, here is the other side of Jesus’ example.

          “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
          “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
          “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
          “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

          -Mathew 25:41-45

        • John says:

          [And yet Paul in Galatians dismisses physical circumcision altogether! Paul says?]

          Oh Really?
          Didn’t Paul say to the circumcised group that circumcision can only be valid if they observed the laws of God?

          “And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.”

          Certainly! Righteousness according to Paul is to obey the law!

          “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. ”
          -Romans 2:13

          so much for your ignorance!

          • Tanya says:

            Galatians 3
            10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.” 11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” 12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”…

            JOhn, you want to live and be declared righteous by obeying the Law! Only ONE who did it,and it was Jesus!!!

            Go ahead, try to live by obeying the Law, but remember you are supposed to FULLY obey it, you proud false brother!

          • John says:

            “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”

            Tanya, you don’t know how to read your bible, do you?

            let me type this for you in a clean arrangement.

            “cursed is everyone who DOES NOT abide by all things WRITTEN in the BOOK OF THE LAW, to PERFORM THEM.”

            what was written in there is exactly the opposite of what you have in mind.

            a curse will only occur if one FAILED to FULFILL of what was written in the bible.

            that’s exactly the statement and we don’t add anything to it.

            in fact, the curses that he mentioned points to the Deuteronomy book of Moses particularly in chapter 28:15-68

          • John says:

            ” you want to live and be declared righteous by obeying the Law! Only ONE who did it,and it was Jesus!!!”

            you must be reading Mathew 5:17 in a wrong way.
            Jesus teachings in Mathew 5:17 are examples given for the people who would want to follow him.

            Let’s read,
            “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them to fulfill them.”
            To fulfill is to obey and not to perform in a cavalry such as to abolish the old commandments of God through his crucifixion.

            Kindly read this,
            “For truly I tell you, until HEAVEN and EARTH DISAPPEAR, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

            when would this commandment be abolished?

            “until HEAVEN and EARTH DISAPPEAR!!!”

            he never said until his death or even until john’s death.

            He sets an example for us to follow if you want to be saved.

            let’s take the example he made in Luke 10,

            “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

            a Jew asked him about salvation and how to enter it.
            what was Jesus respond to the jew?

            “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

            “He answered, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind”; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

            where exactly can you find this statement?
            of course, from the first scriptures called the old testament book.

            Because the new testament book had not yet been produced during Jesus time.

        • John says:

          The mere reality of this debate is I don’t receive any positive point that will shed light for this mystery. it’s quite saddened.

          the bible is a puzzle book in case we forget.
          a little bit careless move and it will dismantle the whole concept of the bible.

          no man has ever reached the pinnacle of the biblical truth of this tithing law.

          “Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty? – Job 11:7″

  4. John Too says:

    I meant to delete the last two lines of my previous comment, but his the post button. Opps.

  5. John says:

    ” Israel was instructed to give 1/500th of the spoils of war (Numbers 31). If tithing is really a permanent ordinance then why was Israel instructed specifically by God to give less from their increase? ”

    Numbers 31 did not transgress the tithing law. it’s a gross tithe of the whole nation being involved in the war. unlike the new testament covenant, the old covenant was more of a national salvation rather than an individual salvation.

    To prove that the tenth wasn’t broken let’s analyze the problem.

    “From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep.”

    “From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD’s tabernacle.”
    1/500 for the soldiers vs 1/50 for the Levites.

    Now if the covenant is more of a national interest then we won’t be able to divide the two components that binds the nation.

    soldiers, people and their levites comprised one nation.
    always remember one nation is for one God.

    how can we equate the two different fractions to prove the tenth of God?

    1/500 = 1/50,
    [5] 1/500 = [5] 1/50,
    5/500 = 5/50,
    1/100 = 1/10,
    10/100 = 0,
    1/10 = 0, and 1/10 is a tenth of the whole nation to God.

    so who said that it won’t make a tenth?

    that man is so dumb to check his bible!

    • John says:

      “Jacob’s vow indicates that tithing was not required because
      he willingly offered it”

      the word “vow” or a promise can be attributed to faith and faith doesn’t nullify the law according to Paul.

      Romans 3:31
      Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

      What Jacob did was an example of having walked in faith.
      it is another proof that God’s tithe was in existence after Abraham paid his own tenth.

      so how would God accept his tenth if this was a pagan tenth?

      1 Corinthians 10:20 New International Version (NIV)
      20 …but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.

      • Tanya says:

        Romans 3:20-21
        For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now, apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets.
        Galatians 3:24-25
        So then, the LAW WAS our guardian UNTIL CHRIST came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are NO LONGER UNDER A GUARDIAN.
        Galatians 2:16:
        ..we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
        Ephesians 2:8
        It is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God.
        Romans 6:14
        For sin shall not have dominion over you: for YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE.
        Galatians 3:12 The LAW is NOT of FAITH.
        Galatians 5:18 – But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
        Galatians 5:14
        The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (where is tithe?)
        Malachi?
        Romans 8:1-2 Therefore there is now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the Law of sin and death.
        Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (Wow, they were „just“ trying to keep on keeping the law of Moses, like you THINK you do.)
        Faith and tithe? Connection? None!. What else from the law do you think you „do“ by „spirit“ and your „faith“? You missed to enlighten the audience

        • John says:

          you said:
          Galatians 3:24-25
          …..we are NO LONGER UNDER A GUARDIAN
          Romans 3:20-21
          For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin
          ————————-
          it’s amaze me to think after all these times of posting about faith Yet you’re still in defiance and know that the more you post those verses here the more illogical your arguments get.

          let’s define what was these verses wanted to express in a plain analysis.

          Galatians 3:24-25 and Romans 3:20-21 described the law as a set of fixed rules for obedience and since the law is spirit it requires a spirit to accomplish its requirements just like what Paul said in Romans 8:4.

          please compare Romans 8:4 with Galatians 3:24-25.

          [in order that the RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.]

          So Faith is one the requirements we need to accomplish God’s law. see the word he mentioned that according to him the Jews were following the laws in a fleshly way which mean an outward appearance of obedience without due regard to faith.

          they always do this thing in public to make the people see them and gained respect out of this act.

          read the example that Jesus had stated here,
          [ Everything they do is done for people to see – Mathew 23:5]

          See the two different kinds of obedience employed in accomplishing God’s law. it never said the law is uttered useless. I asked you why?
          [ For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another]
          [ But God found fault with the people and said:“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah-Heb8:7-8]
          What was he said? “But God found fault with the people” it never said the law(s) was the fault but the people themselves. so what kind of covenant God introduced for Israel?
          [This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MINDS and WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.I will be their God, and they will be my people.]

          See the line says that the Law is to be placed in our mind and heart. it didn’t say it should be repealed for the sake of the people since he said that the people themselves were the fault and perhaps the reason why the first covenant was unsuccessful.

          yes, of course that the law won’t save anyone of sins. why?

          the logic is there. because the laws can liken to a mirror according to James.

          [ Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.]

          [ But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.]

          Is this the answer to your Romans 3:20-21? I hope it served you right and cut this foolish argument about the laws.

          I think this is it. it’s absolutely clear that the law is to stay forever according to Mathew 5:18

          Other verses that may support my theory are available for you to read on.

          * For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous – Romans 2:13

          * Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith- Romans 3:27

          * Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law – Romans 3:31

        • John says:

          Some confusions may arise and one of them is found in Galatians 3:24-25 which says that we are NO LONGER UNDER A GUARDIAN.

          The word Guardian can be referred to a person or a teacher most preferably a teacher of the law in Israel. it can also symbolize in the form of the law which can be in reference to the teacher of the law.

          see the comparison Paul made like Christ is to the Law yet both can be a guardian. so it is more fitting if the guardian referred to is another person to match the whole thing and this is what it all mean.

          *So the law (teacher of the law) was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian (teacher of the law).

          Guardian: Christ = teacher of the law

        • John says:

          Tanya said: Galatians 5:14
          The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
          ———-
          yes, of course, no doubt about it. BUT since love is the fulfillment of the law all the commandments are to be based on Love.

          [ the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever another command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.- Romans 13:9 ]

          it’s all there written for you to see YET it never said love repealed God’s law.

      • Tanya says:

        Nothing „disappears“ from the law. Shadow (law) is made obsolete by Jesus’ fulfillment of the substance. (it is accomplished, cross and resurrection,. remember?).

        Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me..What?!? Tithe is a 1/10 of overall sacrifices, and God did not want that, hmmm…

        Abram tithe was PLUNDER taken by him in the battle, not his own crops and herds (Hebrews 7:4)

        On the mount of transfiguration God said: „Here is my SON, listen to HIM“? How come God didn’t just say „just continue to listen to Moses and prophets“ ? IF listening to Moses &Prophets equals listening to Jesus, why God didn’t say: „Oh, listen to all 3 of them.“?

        Jesus instructed his disciples before going back to heaven that they should „go into whole world and preach Good news about the Kingdom.“? How come He didn’t instruct them: „Oh, you just continue to preach Moses & prophets“? Why not IF listening to Jesus equals listening to Moses and Prophets, whose teachers were present all-around?

        ABOUT Acts.. 15 (and 21)

        [For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” ]
        Moses teachings were still preached during the time of the apostles BUT NOT BY THE APOSTLES!
        Just because Jesus was resurrected it doesn’t mean that all law-preachers disappeared from the face of the earth.

        When apostles instructed gentiles converts in Acts 15, how come they didn’t just say: „oh, you have teachers of the law in your town – just listen to them and DO EVERYTHING THEY SAY.“ ?? Why did they single out only some basic principles? In order not to scandalize jews, because LOVE DOES NOT HARM to a neighbour, or weaker people, that’s why! Logic…

        How do you explain Acts 8, and Peter’s vision (3x) about clean food and its meaning? WHEN did God did away with his own law about unclean animals? Remember law, ONE UNITY… If you break ONE you are lawbreaker (letter of James)

        • John says:

          Tanya said: Hebrews 10:5 Therefore when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me.What?!? Tithe is a 1/10 of overall sacrifices, and God did not want that, hmmm…
          ————–
          Which sacrifices are you talking about?

          Hebrew 10:5 referred to Jesus body as the holy body and the phrase that enclosed which is in reference to the Old scriptures are animal sacrifices. it didn’t say a sacrifice to mean a tithe for your information please read it with your own eyes.

          Yet the sacrifice he mentioned didn’t mean it necessary after Jesus’ body was sacrificed.

          in a spiritual way, sacrifice is something we need to make our heart pleasing to the lord.

          [Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.- Romans 12:1 ]

          Ah! I think it served right to your purpose and there’s no need to take this up.

          • John Too says:

            John,

            Are you seriously saying Christians today are required to keep the dietary laws?

            No pork.
            No shellfish.
            Food must be cooked in separate pots?

            Do you keep those laws?

          • Tanya says:

            I am putting points to look more organized (I hope)
            1)
            Tithe is CONSTITUENT part of all sacrifices and offerings. Jews were tithing before sacrificing.
            The ORIGIN of all sacrifices (TITHE included) is the SIN OF ADAM! ONE-TIME EVENT! Law of sin and death entered the world by Adam’s fall. Before the fall – there was no sacrificing and no tithes, just sharing and fellowship!
            AFTER the fall –God Himself made 1st sacrifice when he killed an animal to cover Adam&Eve. After that people were sacrificing out of acknowledgement/appreciation to God for what He did. In a way they were trying to give Him back what he sacrificed for them! But there was still condemnation – death.
            BUT NOW: „.. there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus …..“ romans 8:1-2
            With his sacrifice (blood) AND offering (body) Christ brought us back to PRE-SIN POSITION before God that Adam and Eve lost by first sin!! Do you believe that or not? This is the TRUE GOSPEL. Do you?
            What’s there to offer/sacrifice that was NOT comprised in Jesus? Nothing! Even our bodies belong to Him! Here is the planest, simplest, Bible proof for not respecting formal „tithe“.
            Free from judgment to death – yet you invoke dead men’s (your words) judgment, Moses & Malachi’s, on those who don’t respect „fixed rule“ of tithe. Judging me to death, you transgress command of love, of Jesus who is alive!
            2)
            In the TEMPORAL dispensation of the law (Romans 5:20 Jews were FREQUENTLY tithing for the same reason they were frequently sacrificing, observing feasts etc. ULTIMATE SACRIFICE was not yet given to God! Besides, Jacob promised his tithes to God – but he never personally FULFILLED his promise! God took his posterity on Jacob’s word and establish the system for the benefit of whole nation.
            3)
            Paul does not promote tithing in Hebrews 7:8! Levi PAID, Abraham GAVE (Hebrews 7:4)
            Simple PAST TENSE statements..Like „God GAVE His Onlybegotten Son…“ Once.
            Or you ASSUME that God „was giving“ Jesus repeatedly? You have problem with one time events which have long-lasting consequences
            4)
            The problem of GALATIANS was NOT „outward appearance of obedience without due regard to faith“, but ADDING their keeping (circumcision, feast days etc.) to Jesus finished work! They turned to false belief that their keeping was NECESSARYeven AFTER they had already accepted „true Gospel“ and tasted life in the spirit. That is falling out of grace. You add tithing (and diet?) in the same way they were adding circumcision, feast days etc. False gospel
            5)
            We were in Adam’s loins when he sinned – Levi was in Abram’s loins when Abram gave tithe! That’s why „even Levi PAID“. What father does counts for his posterity! If you are gentile – you were never in Abram! Abram -father of „sons of slavery“, spiritual Ishmaelities, under yoke of slavery that Galatians are putting themselves AGAIN by adding old „fixed rules“ to Jesus finished work.
            6)
            Gentile churches are not instructed about tithing at all, never, nowhere! Because they were grafted in only in Christ, when there is no more „no jew, no gentile“, and „we know nobody after the flesh any more“. Why do you think tithe is mentioned ONLY in the letter to Hebrews ? Jews were supposed to already know all about the tithe, why writing to them?! But nothing is mentioned to Corinthians, Romans, Galatians, Colossian…to NO ONE except Jews ?!?! Because Jews had problem with law mentality – just as you do.
            7) Read Genesis…
            Isaac (Jesus)– forefather of children like STARS
            Jacob – forefather of children like DUST (earthly, fleshly)
            Abram- flesh, AbraHAM- faith.
            Isaac NEVER tithed!!!
            Or you ASSUME that he did?
            Galatians 4:28 „Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.“

          • John says:

            JT, that’s the way the scriptures teaches and from the start of my research, i finally found that Jesus came to this world not to do away from his father’s law. he came to resume and restore God’s law that was being polluted by the Herodian Jews.

            pls feel free to read it here.

            Matthew 23:2-4 New International Version (NIV)

            2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
            3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
            4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

            well, it’s a crystal clear that as a new testament teacher he should have been teaching his people his ways of righteousness.

          • John says:

            Tanya said: Adam’s fall. Before the fall – there was no sacrificing and no tithes, just sharing and fellowship!
            AGAIN! The genesis book was not written to be the source of Adam’s biography. it was produced to show how the covenant of God-Man had started.

            Adam was the first to accept God’s covenant as it was written in psalms.

            [As at Adam, they have broken the covenant; they were unfaithful to me there.- Hosea 6:7]

            Genesis account doesn’t have this yet we found a piece of clue about the inside story of Adam in another source.
            ————
            Tanya said: With his sacrifice (blood) AND offering (body) Christ brought us back to PRE-SIN POSITION before God that Adam and Eve lost by the first sin!!

            Well, one thing you missed the law that Adam transgressed is the same law that was handed down to the Israelite which is the Ten Commandments. because sin is the transgression of the law and that law is none other than God’s ten commandments.

            it’s the same law which had been brought out to the people through God’s covenant. remember covenant is an agreement between God and his people that the people would keep the law which was noted as the ten commandments to achieve God’s promises.

            this agreement can liken into a contract between employer and his employees that in order to work one must do the job required in exchange for the wages on a certain amount according to what they agreed upon.

            although the first covenant was more fleshly than the new covenant, this won’t necessary mean the ten commandments would be disregarded.

            always keep this in mind that the promises and the ten commandments are God’s properties and the only share the people for this covenant is their performance.

            Under the new covenant of Jesus, faith is deemed necessary for the keeping of the God’s ten commandments. because the promise concerns our salvation.

            [It pleased the LORD for the sake of his righteousness to make his law great and glorious – Isaiah 42:21]
            correct! it never said the law must be changed but only the manner how to keep it.
            ————
            Tanya said: Jacob promised his tithes to God– but he never personally FULFILLED his promise!

            well, for one thing, this will debunk your one-time tenth myth of what you’d been saying. the word promise or a vow can be synonymous to a faith of Abraham and that Faith according to Paul upholds the law.
            ———

            Tanya said: Paul does not promote tithing in Hebrews 7:8! Levi PAID, Abraham GAVE (Hebrews 7:4)

            i guess you need to review what does this verse wants to express.

            let’s read this verse without employing your asserted opinion.

            [ In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living-Heb 7:8]

            Paul described that the tithing law was first performed by the Levite Priests who were mortals, subjected to die, and since God required an eternal priest, he replaced this temporal- mortal priest into a much indestructible life, equivalent to an eternal Priest coming from the line of Melchizedek and that perfect description fits alone to newly resurrected Jesus Christ.

            so it’s, therefore, a conclusion that God transferred this tithing law authority to Jesus as the priest of the eternal.

            in case you’re ignorant of this tithing law, it had been there for a long time and presumed that it was imposed first in heaven under the God’s kingdom authority.

            this tithe is commonly called our tax of today. now if all Christians of today don’t tithe anymore, how would they be accepted in the kingdom of God in the future?

            [“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

            Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth – Mathew 22:11-13 ]

            it’s a good thing you’re not a man, Tanya.

          • John says:

            Tanya said: Why do you think tithe is mentioned ONLY in the letter to Hebrews ?

            good point, Tanya! and what do you think why these gentiles would be integrated altogether with Jews according to Acts 15?

            [“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.]

            Why would Paul advise the Gentiles to mix with Jews in turning to God?

            Because Moses’ law is applied also to other races and not only for the jews.

            An example of this is the Sabbath keeping:

            [Isaiah 66:23
            From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD.]

            so those who said that the Sabbath or any God’s law is applied only for the Jews are all wrong.

          • Tanya says:

            John,
            1)
            Covenant of God given to Adam was oral commandment not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That tree was the LAW. Romans 7:9-10 „I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. And this commandment that was unto life proved to be death to me.“ Adam was not given the law – he was given commandment not to eat from it! Because God knew: „By the law is the knowledge of sin.“ Romans 3:20. Death was the consequence of consuming the law. Only then sacrifices started – and TITHE is a part of all sacrifices.
            2)
            Yes, Christ regained for us pre-sin position. Even better! Adam’ sin brought death. Now Jesus’ blood is „CLEANSING us from all sin.“ We are IN HIM, „righteousness of God in Christ“ (2 Corinthians 5:21)!! There is now no condemnation…. Do you believe it? If not, you fell prey to false Gospel.
            Nor Adam, nor Jews, nor Abraham, Jacob etc. were ever declared „righteousness of God in Christ“! 1 Corinthians 1:30 „But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption“ WHOSE doing? God’s. Jesus’. Not of any man..
            3)
            John said: „…. the ten commandments to achieve God’s promises.
            ————
            What „achievement of God’s promises“ are you talking about!?!?! Purpose of the law: „knowledge of sin“ (Galatians 3:20) and to witness or to „attest to righteousness of God“ (Romans 3:21) „apart from the law.“ (Romans 3:20). Romans 4:15: „For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.“ Here is to debunk your invoking „judgment“ upon non tithers!
            Romans 4.20-21 about Abraham: „.. with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.“ WHO was able to perform? God!
            4)
            What, employer &employee relationship in the New Covenant??.. We are sons of God in Jesus Christ! „Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness“. (Romans 4:4-5) Justifies ungodly! That’s a start. And then you continue in Him: „As you accepted Christ..so walk in him…“ As you accepted. Not by turning to false „Gospel“
            5)
            AGAIN: 10 commandments are NOT disregarded but fulfilled by Jesus Christ on the cross, so in Him you could be righteous before God apart from law. Do you believe that?
            6)
            John said: Always keep this in mind that the promises and the ten commandments are God’s properties and the only share the people for this covenant is their performance.
            ————-
            Everything is God’s property, even your life! No „performance“ is our „share“ ?!?. You don’t believe righteousnees of Christ is valid FOR YOU, am I right? You dont’t believe True Gospel. Who was able to „perform“ (point 3). Philipians 2:13 „for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.“ Sure! To do His pleasure. Not what suits your old religious mind!
            7)
            John said: Under the new covenant of Jesus, faith is deemed necessary for the keeping of the God’s ten commandments….! It never said the law must be changed but only the manner how to keep it.
            ———–
            „Manner“ to keep it is by knowing and believing what Jesus achieved. True Gospel. To debunk your self-righteous ilusion that you „keep“ law: do you love God as in 1st commandment and your neighbour as yourself, do you? Practically? By faith… Please…if it were not for Jesus’ righteousness (that God puts on your account when you see and accept His grace and His cross as your only means for salvation) you would be dead now for breaking first 2 commands just like that!
            8)
            Jacob….
            Jacob vow synonimous of faith!?! Oh, please… God didn’t required Jacob vow.. Jacob thought of it as a natural man … Natural, earth, flesh – DUST, not STARS. No faith of Jacob mentioned in Hebrews 11- until he was close to his natural death. No „heroe of faith“ is ever complimented for tithing! Jesus mentioned tither 2 times – both times he was a bad, self-righteous guy, imagine!
            9)
            John said: …. Melchizedek…and that perfect description fits alone to newly resurrected Jesus Christ. ——–
            AMEN..
            And that’s why He GAVE BACK to God everything by giving HIMSELF. …Now: “ whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. 1 Corinthians 3:22

            AGAIN: „When there is law, there is no transgression…“ Our current position IN HIM doesn’t require tithes &sacrifices as they were not required before the fall.

            WHERE we are now? In Abram/Abraham? Or IN CHRIST?

            IN our Melchizedek, Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30) we are ALL entitled together with Him to be receivers of everything that belongs to Him, not just tithes! But we are sons of God – so we are givers too!!!
            ONE body. THAT’s why NT promotes sharing and not „tithing“! Sharing, one body. Like marriage.

            10)
            ABOUT LAW…

            Did Jesus change or fulfill God’s law when He didn’t pronounce judgment on woman caught in adultery? John 8:11

            11)
            John said: …. tithing law, it had been there for a long time and presumed that it was imposed first in heaven .. this tithe is commonly called our tax of today.
            ——–
            What?!? Imposed!?! Tax! Ooo-hoo! Now you finally dropped your mask! You spoke about love, faith, giving to Jesus by giving to poor, hungry etc. but all the time you had your false doctrine about „kingdom tax“ in mind! Are you giving to your false teachers and hungry, naked, widows in the Body, as well as strangers, remain hungry, thirsty, naked? You feed those who squeeze God’s people and usurp Melchisedek unique position as an ONLY HEAD over the BODY …

            Bodies of His people form collective Temple. God’s house. Kingdom is in us, as Jesus is in us.
            Jesus about temple tax: “What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?” When Peter said, “From strangers,” Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are exempt.“ Sons of God are exempt! But as you are just an employee who pays taxes…

          • John says:

            Tanya said: Covenant of God given to Adam was oral commandment not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That tree was the LAW

            Oh! everything was written in symbols such as the tree in the garden of Eden. Moses wrote it but not in detail yet we could still read it in some other sources that connect to same truth about Adam’s sin. Paul explains that sin is the transgression of the law. but which law was he talking about? he was pointing out the Ten Commandments of God and nothing more. can we assume too that Adam received the same commandment that God gave to Israel? God would never give his Ten commandments to the people without his covenant. otherwise, what’s the point of giving it without knowing the reason why? because under this covenant is the promises to be given to the people upon the performance of the law. Under this Jesus, new covenant is a promise of salvation that if one keeps the commandment then he is entitled to be saved. no matter how we accept this God always put everything in agreement.

          • John says:

            Tanya said: so in Him you could be righteous before God apart from law. Do you believe that?

            Tanya listen to this, Righteousness can come only,….

            [ For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who OBEY the law who will be declared RIGHTEOUS – Romans 2:13]

            some verses that confused the people about God’s law.

            [ It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith-Romans 4:13]

            they declared that the law of Moses has nothing to do with faith. but that is not what Paul wants to explain.

            Faith or love according to him is another fruit of the holy spirit according to Galatia 5:22, which is essential in keeping the law.

            he never said that to keep the faith one must forget the law.

            [Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law-Romans 3:31]

            so if the law is no longer binding then there’s a reason for him to explain again of what he said in Romans 7:12.

            [So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is HOLY, RIGHTEOUS and GOOD]

            Did Paul point out that the law caused one to sin? No!

            [Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful-Romans 7:13]

            that’s why Jesus advised us in Mathew 5:

            [ For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven]

            why would he advise the people to exceed more than their righteousness? here is the answer.

            Because,….

            [ The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. ]

            [ But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.]

            well, that’s the answer to the question why.

            How about you Tanya, have you been exceeding your righteousness more than your pastor’s righteousness?

          • John says:

            Tanya said: What „achievement of God’s promises“ are you talking about!?!?!

            Sometimes you need to read your bible thoroughly rather than asking this none sensible question.

            you see the promise that Paul mentioned was based on God’s covenant with Abraham.

            [ I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you-Genesis 17:7 ]

            …and what was this God’s promise for his descendants?

            please read Genesis 17:8

            [ The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God]

            who were those that composed Abraham’s descendants?

            [If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise-Galatians 3:29]
            this revelation disproved this heaven bound myth as a gift for the saints after death.

            So Abraham and his legitimate children along with adopted children through Christ would be receiving God’s promises as inheritors of the earth.

            please read this Psalms 37:29
            [ The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.]

            Yet some of you believed this heaven bound promises given to those who died in Christ.

            this heaven bound promise is actually a pagan myth that had been employed in the Christian doctrine that when a person dies he will go to heaven.

            Remember, the only person who ascended to heaven was Jesus christ and no more.

            [And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.-John 3:13]

        • John says:

          Tanya said: How come God didn’t just say „just continue to listen to Moses and prophets“ ?
          —————–
          Why Tanya? what was in the scriptures?

          [It was not with our ancestors that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.- deut 5:3]

          Because,….
          [ He is not the God of the dead but of the living – Mathew 22:32]
          so how can u expect to listen to Moses if he is dead?

          • Tanya says:

            Oh, Acts 15…

            John wrote
            [“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.]
            Why would Paul advise the Gentiles to mix with Jews in turning to God?
            —–
            If the law is preached, and everything from it was binding (sabbath, diet, tithe etc.)- WHY apostles bothered to single out only these 3 things? All these 3 are from the Law! Gentiles could have known that 3 points from Moses, they didn’t need apostles to inform them! Your conclusion suggests their cleannness for being admitted among Jews was to be based on something other than on the blood of Jesus. Hmmmm…

          • John says:

            Tanya said: WHY apostles bothered to single out only these 3 things?

            Always keep in mind of that Paul’s advised for the gentiles in order for them to be accepted by the Jews, they must abstain those things that concern unholiness.

            Because they were once a stranger to the law of Moses and there was no way they could keep it as they grew up into the place where pagan traditions were observed.

            Did Paul mention the sabbath as one of the unholy things to be abstained?

            To surprise you and to all of you, he did not include it as one of the things to be restricted.

            therefore, the law of Sabbath is for them to keep as they joined together with other Jews.

            now if you believed of what he said that as gentiles,
            are we subjected to Paul decree?

            Tanya, your salvation depends on it.

        • John says:

          Tanya said: How do you explain Acts 8, and Peter’s vision (3x) about clean food and its meaning? WHEN did God did away with his own law about unclean animals? Remember law, ONE UNITY… If you break ONE you are lawbreaker (letter of James)
          ————–
          Unclean animal(s) is still a binding law. Let’s hear what Peter said.

          [ He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.” ]

          [ “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”]

          Some readers have presumed that the law for unclean meat is done away. well, that’s not true! if u ever read the whole details of Peter’s account it never pointed to the unclean meat.
          what he saw was a vision of all kinds of unclean animals which is a symbolic form for sinners who wanted to be saved too.

          [I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. – Acts 10:35 ]

          what makes me believe that the law for unclean animals is still enforced?

          please read what Peter responded to the angel, “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

          Peter has long been a converted Christian for so many years and there’s no way for him to teach that unclean animal(s) is done away.

          • Tanya says:

            No jew, no gentile…integrated yes- ONE new man. No circumcision for gentiles. Why?
            ——-
            Up to that point (Acts 10) Peter never ate unclean meat, yes, up to that point of revelation. Symbolic and plain meaning. Read Corinthians about eating.
            ——-
            Read John 7 – Jesus about circumcision and sabbath. If sabbath is binding-then circumcision too. Circumcision from father Abraham! Galatians clearly say “no” after accepting true Christ.

          • John says:

            Tanya said: Up to that point (Acts 10) Peter never ate unclean meat, yes, up to that point of revelation. Symbolic and plain meaning. Read Corinthians about eating.

            are u serious? how do u read this Paul’s remark about clean food?

            [ For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer – 1Tim4]

            all God’s creation are written in the old testament we called the word of God. so which particular word of God we can find that the food is a cleaned food to eat?

            of course! he was pointing to the Leviticus book of Moses.

            keep in mind Tanya, most of Paul’s lectures came from the old testament book. because the new testament book was not yet available as long as the disciples are still living.

            ————–
            Tanya said: Read John 7 – Jesus about circumcision and sabbath. If sabbath is binding-then circumcision too.
            Circumcision from father Abraham! Galatians clearly say “no” after accepting true Christ.

            Let’s read this part,

            [Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath?- Jn 7:23]

            Didn’t Jesus really break the Sabbath? here is the whole truth of what he did during the Sabbath.

            There are two pictures in the scene that Jesus tried to explain to them about what is allowed in the Sabbath day.
            he said that if circumcision in the past was allowed on the sabbath day, why couldn’t the healing?

            Jesus was using his logical reasoning to get them by comparing the two scenarios being done yet both permitted on the Sabbath day.

            now if Jesus broke the Sabbath through his healing act then that definitely would eventually apply to the same with the circumcision. because both acts can be considered as merciful act of God and permitted on the Sabbath.

            again! what was the advice he gave to the people against this over righteous?

            [“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.]

            [ But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Mathew 23]

            Yes, they were observing the Sabbath day but they don’t follow exactly what was written in the book for the Sabbath keeping.

            healing is a merciful act of God and he wants them to practice mercy all the time just like what he did when one wants to offer his tithe for the needy in Mathew 23.
            ———-

            Tanya said; No jew, no gentile…integrated yes- ONE new man. No circumcision for gentiles. Why?

            Paul did not mean of when came across with circumcision.
            let’s read his statement and check his wordings.

            [Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.- Romans 2:25]

            There is a condition to make if one wants to be circumcised and that condition is the observance of God’s law.

            he never said circumcision is no longer valid. rather he pointed out that in order this circumcision to be valid one needs to observe the law first.

            that statement is called a conditional statement and not a rule to abolish circumcision.

            I guess it’s all clear that Paul never meant of removing this circumcision just because somebody who reads it wanted to twist his message.
            for a clearer view of this fact here is the book of Acts that outline his works and how he explain his side to the accusers.

            [They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to CIRCUMCISE their children or live according to our customs- Acts 21:21 ]

            …and what was Paul’s response?

            [ Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law – Acts 21:24]

            THEN EVERYONE WILL KNOW THERE IS NO TRUTH IN THESE REPORTS ABOUT YOU!

            the statement is plain and simple that Paul never said he would be abolishing the law of circumcision.

          • Tanya says:

            John said… can we assume too that Adam received the same commandment that God gave to Israel?
            —————
            No! God did not give Adam 10 commandments to obey and live by! God warned Adam NOT to consume/eat them! God knew Adam would not be able to obey and live, because he was flesh, earthly, not like 2nd Adam who is from above. Romans 8:7 „..because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so.“ Adam was to live „without the law“, „apart from law“… „Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.“ Romans 7:9.
            The law was in the garden as the law is what God is: good, perfect. But not intended to be eaten by natural men!
            Hosea 6:6-7 For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant;..
            Adam broke the covenant /law of LOVE – by not listening his Creator who told him NOT to taste the law!!! Besides, adam didn’t have father and mother, so how could he be obedient to commandment about respecting them? All 10 wouldn’t have made no sense to adam. Yes, he only had one command – DO NOT EAT, IT WILL KILL YOU!!!
            Later Israel was purposely given law, „ministry of death“, „ministry of condemnation“ – to prepare them for the Saviour. Who will save them apart from their performance of the law!! Like Abraham was declared righteous apart from law! Abraham who had promises and covenant but not law.
            We are not suppose to „eat“ the law either. We are to feed from the tree of life, which is LOVE, law fulfilled by One.

            John said: new covenant is a promise of salvation that if one keeps the commandment then he is entitled to be saved.
            ———-
            What?!! „Entitled“ to be saved under NC?!? God so loved the world… No one is entitled to be saved, let alone by performance. You are missing the whole point of God’s love and salvation.

            John said:.. so which particular word of God we can find that the food is a cleaned food to eat?… of course! he was pointing to the Leviticus book of Moses.
            —————
            No! To GENESIS.. Everything God created was GOOD in the beginning. THAT’S the word of God which consecrates! What Jesus pointed to when it comes to marriage, to law or to „the beginning“? The beginning!!!
            Pre-sin position in Christ! No – even better! Because the result of Adam’s sin was condemnation for all men (Adam’s loins, remember).. In Christ- justification for ALL. „NOW there is NO CONDEMNATION…“

            Sabbath…
            Yes, doing good on Sabbath day, healing, merciful acts etc. is not breaking the sabbath. Amen!!! Jesus didn’t break the spiritual meaning of sabbath, but he made literal observance of rules obsolete by fulfilling the deepest and holy meaning of it in His ministry and by His ULTIMATE SACRIFICE!
            Example AGAIN: did Jesus break/destroy or fulfil the law when He didn’t pronounce judgment of death on adultress? Why didn’t He stick to literal obedience of the written law and say „put her to death“?
            You see, you are not consistent. You promote LITERAL dietary law, tithe etc. which are part of, let’s say, broader version of the law written on scrolls, YET there is NO literal observance of the same in the Jesus’ case of adultress, and no literal observance in the case of sabbath (because sabbath rules written on the scrolls include sacrifices – which are made obsolete because of Jesus’ ultimate sacrifice).
            Do you agree with Jesus about adultress? If you do – then you should be consistent in everything and stick to higher law of love and not lower written rules (diet, sabbath, circumcision etc.)

            I don’t see tithe has anythyng to do with Matthew 23?? Again, we are not doing to him. We are HIM. He shares with us, taking care of us so in HIM we can do good to others who are still outside of our UNION with Him. What’s stopping you to give 90% if you can? First church were selling their possesions and shared everything, had in common (that’s where word „communism“ has its origin)!
            John said:There is a condition to make if one wants to be circumcised and that condition is the observance of God’s law.
            ——–
            What?!! Bottom line: „If you let yourself be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you….“ What is not clear in that statement?

            John said: he never said circumcision is no longer valid. rather he pointed out that in order this circumcision to be valid one needs to observe the law first.
            ————-
            What?!! Philipians 3:6-8 Paul about himself: „circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;…. I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish“. Literal observance of the law Paul considered „loss“ and „rubbish“ compared to liberty in Christ! „No jew, no gentile“ means no double standards! Liberty from literal, physical observance for all!
            Acts 21:24 are James&co words, not Paul’s! Again, Paul about himself: „ To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.“ 1st Corinthians 1:20 The rule of love reigned in Paul’s heart. Not offending the week who don’t know liberty in Christ yet.
            John said the other day: ….law is not worthless
            —————–
            Galatians 4:3
            .. while we were children, we were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.
            Galatians 4:9
            ..how can you turn back again to the WEAK AND WORTHLESS elementary principles of the world..
            Colossians 2:20
            … f you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world,

            The word for „elemental things/principles“ is the SAME in all 3 verses above

            Galatians 2:19
            For through the Law I died to the Law,
            Romans 7:4 you also died to the law through the body of Christ

            Get it? Dying to elemental things of the world EQUALS dying to the law.

          • John says:

            Tanya said: God warned Adam NOT to consume/eat them! God knew Adam would not be able to obey and live.

            Genesis tree is just a symbolic form for knowledge. I don’t think that it was a literal tree since you said everything was good for food in the earliest time according to your biblical proof.

            well, this account brings a flak to your “all clean animals myth”. if God created them all clean then why there’s a restriction in the food he wants to eat? this logical reasoning can also be applied similarly to the clean and unclean animals. however, that’s not the way we read it.

            [ And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good – Genesis 1:25]

            it never said that it was good for food. the word “good” can be synonymous to a perfect creation and not for food. Crocodiles are creeping animals and don’t say that you can take them as your food since everything you said is restored to the original form, right Tanya? do you really devour them?

            I hope you’re not that stupid to follow your baseless analysis.

            the only good creation that is perfect for food can be found in Genesis 2:9.

            let’s read;
            [ And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil ]

            did you see the word “good for food” in the paragraph? you can’t read this in Genesis 1:25 yet both are described as good.

            Clean and Unclean animals are by nature a part of God’s creation. most clean animals are belonging to the domestic group and those unclean, to the wild group.

            Let’s read this part:
            [Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female-Genesis 7:2]

            now if the uncleanness of these animals are presumed to have resulted from Adam’s sin, then why didn’t God make them all clean after he distinguish some of them as clean in the time of the flood?

            why Tanya? have you been running out of reasoning?

            [3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.-1tim4:3-5]

            Paul said referred his statement to THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND WHO KNOW THE TRUTH and the only truth that was available at that time was the OT book.

            now if you are a swine meat eater then you should read Isaiah 66:17 of what will befall you in the future.

            [7 “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things—they will meet their END together with the one they follow,” declares the LORD.]

            Remember this warning is still in the future!

          • John says:

            Tanya : Galatians 4:3 while we were children, we were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.??

            I’m curious Tanya of your shallow reasoning. the word bondage was first used in Genesis 47:19. listen to this so you may not lost.

            [ Why should we perish before your eyes—we and our land as well? Buy us and our land in exchange for food, and we with our land will be in BONDAGE to Pharaoh. Give us seed so that we may live and not die, and that the land may not become desolate ]

            So whenever this word Bondage is being used we are referring this to Pharaoh as the leader who brought the people of Israel to slavery.

            Do you mean to tell me that God was acting like pharaoh when he make his people as one nation under Moses CRUEL LAWS? think about this thing.

            you’re opinion is misleading and you are accusing God of slavery. it’s not Moses who gave them the laws but it was God.

            [When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger ofGod -Ex 31:18]

            Who gave the law? was it Moses? No! it was God!!!!!!
            Now if you think the Sabbath was a cruel law how do you read this part?

            [“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a DELIGHT and the LORD’s holy day honorable, and if you HONOR it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,-Isa 58:13 ]

            What was the reward? let’s read more of it,

            [ then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.]

            well don’t think that this message is obsolete. Because every word of God is holy and ETERNAL!

            [From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, ALL MANKIND will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD.- iSA 66:23 ]

            Gentiles and Jews are to be bound as ONE!

          • John says:

            So it’s quite funny to think that after God had liberated the people from Pharaoh’s slavery, he would be bringing them back again to slavery?

            there is no sense of logic there Tanya.

          • John says:

            Tanya said: Besides, Adam didn’t have father and mother, so how could he be obedient to commandment about respecting them?

            After Jesus said that there’s only one father and that father is in heaven and you’re saying that Adam has no parents? where is your faith, Tanya?

            [And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. – Mathew 23:9]

            Yes, God is our first parents. Teaching that Adam and Eve were the first parents is not biblical.

            you are just presuming it that it was. let’s read this part to disprove your claim.

            [ That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh – Genesis 2:24 ]

            if the man that was being discussed is pointed to Adam, who were his parents then?

            remember there’s only one man that was being discussed. whenever we used this “a man” in a sentence it pointed to a particular person. did you see the relationship between God and Adam?

            it’s a father and son relationship.

            what excuses are you going to tell after i found this account that would debunk your heresy?

    • John says:

      I sensed it came from Russel Kelly’s formula of .002 and .02.
      no doubt his dumbness are all scattered everywhere like poison.

      • John,
        just a piece of advice, stop talking too much. I don’t read your comments anymore. The more you write the less effective you are at getting your message across. People don’t have time to read and respond to all the pages and pages of rambling.

        • John says:

          I’m sorry for that thing that I said, but still i respect you for that.
          pls delete the last line if it deemed not appropriate for the readers. thank you Bro.

          • Tanya says:

            John,
            are you saying that you “abide by ALL THINGS written in the book of the Law!?! YOU perform perfectly in mercy, justice and faithfulness?!?!
            VAU, you are in complete denial of who man is!! We are DECLARED righteouss apart from the Law (Romans 4:5) – but we didn’t BECOME righteouss in ourselves!! We are „righteousness of God IN CHRIST“. HIS righteousness and obedience are put on our account, so no one can boast!
            IF you are in Christ – you are new creation and you „DIED to the LAW through the body of Christ“ (Romans 7:4).
            „In Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death“ (Romans 8:2).
            You know why you had to be freed from the law of sin and death? Because God’s Law is perfect – but it cannot make YOU perfect! For us humans God’s perfect Law becomes the law of sin and death, because to EVERYONE who FAILS to FULLY obey the Law – it brings condemnation and death! The purpose of the Law was „the knowledge of sin“ that kills every man (Romans 3:20). LOVE is fulfillment of the Law, yes, but God is Love, Christ is love… you are not love, because your flesh (like mine) still produces death…
            What else from the Law do you think you „abide by“ besides tithing?? Circumcison? Sabbath? You don’t wear cotton underwear and woolen suit? You never covet for a moment something that it doesn’t belong to you? Come on! IF you cannot fully and perfectly comply by ALL these commands that were given for the flesh, you dare to presume that you perform fully in showing mercy, justice and faithfulness?! Ts, ts, ts….
            Of course Jesus uphold tithing IN THE TIME OF THE LAW! Because He spoke those words in Matthew 17 BEFORE THE CROSS! If you want to tithe after the cross – you should also fully obey all the Law, otherwise you bring curse upon yourself taking upon yourself „yoke of slavery“.
            Deuteronomy 28:12: “The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty ….to bless all the work of your hands.“ Blessings in Deuteronomy 28 are direct consequences of Deuteronomy 28:1: „if you FULLY obey…“. Do you fully obey the Law? Because OLD COVENANT blessings are product of FULLY obeying the Law, not of paying tithes (Malachi 3). No, no – tithes are not sufficient for blessing John, ALL the Law!
            Abram paid tithe once (Genesis chapt. 14th).! Before he was counted his faith for righteousness (15th chapt)!
            AbraHAm NEVER paid tithe!
            Abram is the future father of Ishmael. Galatians 4 reveals that Ishmaelites are actually those who are of the Law from Sinai, meanin Jews under the Law!!!
            Faith-father of christians is not Abram, but AbraHAM!
            If you want to be son of slavery, pay tithes and confide in your compliance to the Law!

          • John says:

            you said: Abraham NEVER paid tithe!
            just because you read that he tithed in the bible and you made your conclusion that he tithed once. but the bible never said he tithed once, is it?
            I think Paul has something to say about Abraham’s tithing practices. let’s read this paragraph,
            “One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham – Heb 7:9”
            how do we accept his statement? he said that the Jews were paying their tithes because Abraham paid his tithe. now if we asked where were their tithe practices originated?
            of course, it came from Abraham’s practices and that’s the only reason why they tithed according to Paul.
            Now if Abraham tithed once where did these jews get this occasional tithing practices? where?
            another point to make is, Abraham lived and died at his good old age and his Genesis account didn’t reflect his entire age to make a justification for this one time tenth of him.
            ——————————————————————————————————————————–
            “you said: IF you are in Christ – you are new creation and you „DIED to the LAW through the body of Christ“ (Romans 7:4). ”

            What do you mean by that? what was written in Heb 7:6?

            “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”

            I don’t see anything that Paul changed the law. in fact, if we read what he said about it in Heb 3:31.

            “Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.”

            The law is spirit and it requires a faith to fulfill it. Paul stressed that walking under the written code or outward keeping would be declared useless. he never said change the law but rather change the manner of keeping.

            please read this paragraph in Heb 8,
            “For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

            The old way of the written code means flesh or an outward keeping accordingly.
            —————————————————————————————————————————-
            “you said: Jesus uphold tithing IN THE TIME OF THE LAW! Because He spoke those words in Matthew 17 BEFORE THE CROSS!”

            he was a new testament teacher and anything that concerns to salvation must be based on this accordingly.
            because salvation is the goal of every man regardless of race.

            so why would he teach tithing if this law would mean to be ignored in the later times?

            the truth is he never said tithe should be ignored or not required to salvation. in fact, he taught them the right way how to tithe and that example he made in Mathew 22 is connected to Paul’s statement in Heb 7:6 that says one must walk in the spirit. it takes for a faith to keep the law of tithing.

            Now if the law of tithing is no longer in our times how do you accept Paul’s statement in Heb 7:8?

            ” In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die ( mortal priest or the Levite); but in the other case, by him (Jesus / Melchizedek) who is declared to be living.”

            how about that?
            so if the tithing lasts up to the death of Jesus why then Paul mentioned it in Hebrew 7:8? that’s confusing!

  6. Tanya says:

    John,
    I don’t have much time today so I will answer your questions not at once.
    you didn’t answer the important question: what else from the Law, besides „tithe“, you think you are keeping today?
    How do you read Galatians 3: „Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?“ ? Galatians who received salvation were getting lured into get circumcised and obey the whole Law – just like you! If there is nothing wrong in obeying the precepts of the law after the cross and justification by faith, why Paul didn’t commend their desire to get circumcised and „obey the Law“ instead of saying in Galatians 5 „For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.“ How do you read that? Remember, all they wanted was to obey precept(s) of the Law that was introduced by God to father Abraham (circumcision)! ??
    John, you wrote back to me:
    „you said: Abraham NEVER paid tithe!
    just because you read that he tithed in the bible and you made your conclusion that he tithed once. but the bible never said he tithed once, is it?“
    MY ANSWER:
    John, if tithing to Melchisedek happened again, and again, and again in Abram’s life – would the letter of Hebrews, centuries after the life-time(?) of „tithing“, mention only that one specific situation, with all the particulars about the unique battle, encounter with the king of Sodom etc. and with NO INDICATION whatsoever that tithing continued afterwards on regular basis!!? You read into the event more than it says. How many times Abram went to a battle to free Lot, and then met Melchisedek etc.? If you were giving me, lets say 1000 $ each month for whole life-time, and that was to be a big deal and example to follow for future generations, I would make it clear for them that it happened more than once!! And If I were to bring to remembrance this practice, centuries later, to another generations (and treat it as a standard), I would make sure they understand unequivocally that was the PRACTICE and NOT one –time event! Letter of Hebrews is plainly treating it as ONE-TIME event!!
    Another argument in favour of one-time event is its spiritual significance: prior to Abram’s tithing Melchisedek offered him BREAD and WINE plus blessings. You know what that means? It represents Jesus body and blood given for Abram’s descendants (and the world) ONCE AND FOR ALL!! In the same way we have been „blessed with every spiritual blessing in Christ“ (Ephesians). It also happened ONCE! But the consequences/benefits last for ever!! If you continue to use plural („Abram’s practices“) does that mean you presume that Jesus body and blood was not given once and for all, but the cross had to be repeated regularly too?! I hope not. What biblical ground you have for treating Abram and Melchisedek by double standards? If one act is repeatable (Abram’s tithe), the other should be also (giving of bread and wine representing body and blood)! In the Law, remember, both tithes and sacrifices were being repeated again and again.
    You didn’t answer another important question: HOW do you tithe to your Melchisedek Christ based on an example of Abram? Hebrews says that „our High Priest is NOT on earth“? ??

  7. John says:

    you said: “You read into the event more than it says. How many times Abram went to a battle to free Lot”

    well, that’s the question that I want to raise, Jews are paying tithes because they followed the way Abraham paid his tithe and the issue that I want to know here is, why did they pay their tithe frequently if Abraham tithed once? why? Is the issue of Abraham’s tithe troubling you?

    please read this passage thoroughly,
    [One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham – Heb 7:9]

    After i thoroughly examined this passage it came to my mind that Abraham tithed many times in the past and not just only once. surely the genesis account doesn’t give in detail about the life of Abraham.

    For some time, you need to be attentive whenever I ask this question.
    **********************************
    Now if the tithe is no longer a mandatory thing in our times, why would Paul promote this tithe thing in Hebrew 7:8?

    [ In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die (mortal priest / Levites); but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living (Melchizedek / Jesus).]

    Again! The passage tells that the tithe will no longer be handled by the Levites. it has been transferred to Melchizedek under the leadership of Jesus Christ himself.

    please feel free to read more of this line since you are preaching the false gospel.
    **********************
    you said: “Letter of Hebrews is plainly treating it as ONE-TIME event!!”
    I don’t think so! you’re merely presuming it that it was a one time tenth. abide by the rule of the bible instead of indulging yourself too much of your presumptions.
    ******************************
    you said: “You didn’t answer another important question: HOW do you tithe to your Melchizedek Christ based on an example of Abram? Hebrews says that „our High Priest is NOT on earth“? ??”

    What was the thing I said from my previous post? probably you need to review my answer again.
    for the last time here it is again,

    [For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for ONE of the least of these BROTHERS and SISTERS of mine, YOU DID for ME.’]
    -Mathew 25:35-40

    What was the conclusion he made in Mathew 25?

    [whatever you did for ONE of the least of these BROTHERS and SISTERS of mine, YOU DID for ME]

    the logic is there that the tithe would be paid to the church and the church that Jesus built means “the call out ones” meaning the people.

    so whatever you did to these people whether it be of tithe or any form of payment YOU ARE DOING THIS FOR JESUS CHRIST. it takes for a person with the logical power to understand his message. in fact it has long been handed over to Peter this issue of payment.

    “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “FEED MY LAMBS.” – John 21:15

    • Tanya says:

      Garden
      Tree is symbolic of course, of knowledge of commandments. Eating means consuming, absorbing it in your system to get you energy and life. DO NOT EAT IT, IT WILL KILL YOU, get it?!

      John, what part of „everything created was good“ plus „all kinds of reptiles“ and „kill and eat“ ( from Acts 10) you don’t get? Peter was hungry and about to EAT, when he had vision in Acts 10! Yeah, sure, God only had spiritual meaning in mind (irony). I don’t eat snakes and reptiles, but there are people who do, and God will not smack them for it. We don’t know exact origin of uncleannes of some animals from the Genesis account, it is quite possible the origin is first man’s sin – as it is the origin of human uncleanness.

      John said: then why didn’t God make them all clean after he distinguish some of them as clean in the time of the flood?
      ————
      I don’t know. Do you? Maybe to leave a reminder to Noah of what uncleannes looks like? (Cause humans were destroyed in the flood.) Anyway, I am done with this silly discussion about food, that’s not focus here.

      John, those „who believe and know the Truth“ are those who accepted Grace and Truth (Jesus Christ Savior and Lord and righteousness in Him), and not those who know Law!!

      John wrote: you’re opinion is misleading and you are accusing God of slavery. it’s not Moses who gave them the laws but it was God.
      ———
      God gave them law for specific temporal purposes that I mentioned several times here. I won’t be repeating myself.
      Remember John, it was man filled with the Holy Spirit who said the law was „ministry of death“ and „ministry of condemation“ (find quotation yourself). Paul wanted to say that cruel God would give his people death and condemnation?!? (irony). /I have to write when it’s irony, cause you are so smart you don’t get my rhetorical questions/.

      John, you really believe you will scare someone with your threatening quotations from OC? I can say, yes, Amen, to whole OC!! And it was so! Jesus fulfilled all righteousness, put it on our account (mine too) and that’s it, settled for good! Those who trample His glorious work of salvation and justification of the wicked (Romans 4:5) underfoot, refusing His love and command to love – people like you – they should be scared.
      Think logically, „those who obey the law will be declared righteous“, right? Who among men was ever declared righteous by obeying the law? Jesus Christ. He obtained righteousness for US, He didn’t need it for Himself! „God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.“ Now, you are saying that those who are made righteousness of God in HIm should go back to fulfilling righteousness by observance of the law. You are refusing True Gospel John, you should tremble, teacher of the law!!!

      How come you didn’t say anything about Jesus and adultress… Did Jesus literaly observe the written law concerning adultress?

      You observe mercy, higher thing from the law than tithing? Do you? To me and other non-tithers?

      • John says:

        you said: what part of „everything created was good“ plus „all kinds of reptiles“ and „kill and eat“ ( from Acts 10) you don’t get?

        just as expected of your never ending the argument about clean and unclean animals. I’d already posted it about Acts 10 and you’re still bringing up again. you’re not reading my post again, that’s all i can say. you’re wasting my time on this.
        please review all the comments I posted on this forum.

      • John says:

        Tanya: Now, you are saying that those who are made righteousness of God in Him should go back to fulfilling righteousness by observance of the law

        What?! Paul states that we should work for our salvation. he never said that Jesus took away this burden from us. I guess you must be a kind of person who wants to escape from responsibility.

        are u saying that faith doesn’t require “our work”?

        please read this,
        [ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?- Jas 2:14]

        [ Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.-Jas 2:17 ]

        what work?

        [ If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right.

        [ But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it ]

        [For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.]

        James never said that the law of God was done away. it’s actually the opposite of what you have in mind. instead, he encourages us to fulfill the law with faith.

        now read what Jesus advised to the jews in Luke 10.

        [ On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”]

        [“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”]

        [ He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”]

        [“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live ]

        James, Jesus, Paul and me are consistent that the law is to last until the end of times.

        [ For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. ]

        • Tanya says:

          Garden, Adam…LAW

          „If you love me, you will listen (obey) my commands“. Adam didn’t listen God’s command unto life (DO NOT EAT MY GOOD AND PERFECT LAW. IT WILL KILL YOU.), so the fruit of the good tree brought him death. Adam couldn’t listen (obey) because he did not love God as he was loved. How come? The first Adam was earth, dust, not like 2nd Adam who is from above. Dust made alive by breath of God is not equal to being born from God! Onlybegotten Son from heaven loved God, so He obeyed what 1st Adam missed.

          Do you see how woman „saw that the tree was good for food.“ Oh, really? God said: „DO NOT EAT. it will KILL you.“, but she „saw“ it was good for food! You are just like woman John, you see something good (law) -but it is not for your food! You need bread of life!

          Woman wasn’t around when God talked to Adam, so she was deceived by the serpent. That’s why God didn’t hold her responsible, but serpent and Adam. Woman suffered consequences, sure, but only to serpent and Adam God said: „BECAUSE you did this….“. Careful, John, somebody is deceiving you..

          Clean food…
          Something more about it, because it has SPIRITUAL meaning.
          Genesis 9:3 God gave to Noah ALL animals for food!! Only exception: do not eat meat with blood in it.
          Noah didn’t receive the same dietary law as Israel under Mt. SINAI! Noah’s arc is symbolic of salvation in Jesus Christ. Time after flood compared to time after cross… Get it?

          Oh, John, it is not me who accuses Jesus – YOU do. You promote literal observance (diet, 10%, circumcision of the flesh) that has little to do with fulfilling deep spiritual essence of the law. I was just showing you the absurdity of YOUR logic – according to which Jesus Himself broke the law, cause He didn’t stick to literal observance (he forgave instead of condemn). Get it?

          How do you glorify the law Jesus glorified? Mercy to non-tithers? Like Jesus showed to adultress, to murderer on the cross …? Do you John?

          John, I understood you perfectly and read all your posts, I just do not agree with you. I understand your frustration, and sense you would love to kill me if you could. If someone was to read our posts here, would you think that he/she would say: „Oh, this John, how he loves this poor Tanya person with God’s love…“? You practiced mercy and peace making towards me in your posts?

          God law is glorious – but you are not here to keep it literaly as you promote (diet, 10% etc.). I am not against rightful usage of the law, God forbid, but you BREAK it by wrongfully using it and twisting its purposes.

          Righteousness of Christ is necessary to fulfill the higher law of love and not fulfilling of details that were given for „flesh“ and not for spiritual man! You and I have to admitt that we do not „love or neighbour as ourselves“, that’s why we need constantly the spirit of Jesus working inside of us, His transformation of our mind and soul… But you keep talking about „burden“… His burden is light… You should ask yourself why is it so heavy for you, John.

          • John says:

            Tanya: Noah didn’t receive the same dietary law as Israel under Mt. SINAI! Noah’s arc is symbolic of salvation in Jesus Christ. Time after flood compared to time after cross… Get it?

            Tanya, Adam didn’t receive God’s covenant in Genesis book. why? because it was written in Hosea, that’s why? so don’t make Genesis as the source of particular things like laws.

            Genesis is an origin of everything. there are few clean animals in Noah’s ark yet we don’t read which kind of animal that was branded as clean.

            if i ask Noah noah what were the names of this clean animal, would he give me the names of these animals?

            we don’t have clues yet we found these particular clean animals in Leviticus ALONE!

            so why you’re so persistent over this genesis thing? are

    • Tanya says:

      ABOUT BONDAGE

      John,
      „Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. But the son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. This is allegorically speaking, for these women are TWO COVENANTS: ONE PROCEEDING FROM MOUNT SINAI bearing children who are to be SLAVES; she is Hagar. NOW THIS HAGAR IS MOUNT SINAI in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. (Galatians 4:21-25).

      John, don’t you see you would rather be spiritual Ishmael, descendant of Abram and Hagar, then child of promise in Jesus Christ?

      • John says:

        The law that was being discussed by Paul was in reference to the manner of keeping. please read the whole chapter of Mathew 5. it’s all there and we don’t need to guess what law was Paul discussing about.

        [You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.]

        [ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.]

        [Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell]

        Didn’t Jesus remove the law about murder? No! he glorified it such as what Isaiah 42:21 said.

        govern by this rule and don’t accuse Jesus of breaking God’s law!

        • Tanya says:

          Manner of keeping in Galatians? Yes. To circumcise flesh or not.. “If you let yourself be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you.” On this base stands or crumbles your whole theory of respecting details for the flesh.

          • John says:

            tANYA: To circumcise flesh or not..

            what was Paul said?

            [ Circumcision has value if you observe the law
            – Romans 2:25]

            it’s a conditional statement!!!

  8. Tanya says:

    Is anybody here reading this comments besides John and I? Anyone?

  9. Tanya says:

    John,

    Joh wrote: Adam didn’t receive God’s covenant in Genesis book. why? because it was written in Hosea, that’s why?
    —-
    sory, do not understand this statement of yours ??

    Remember, you said Adam received the law! You forget what you wrote in your own posts.
    If you take covenant to mean “contract” as you explained, than Adam received it- because his life depended on his obedience to one loving command.

    John, you sound so happy when you think you “debunk” “my” theory.. When in fact you debunk only your own interpretation of “my” theory. Of course, God is the father of all flesh! Yet Adam was not son of God the same way Jesus was (when He was in bodily form). Onlybegotten Son, was Adam ever called that? No. Bible says Jesus was from above, Adam was from dust of the earth. If being born “onlybegotten son” equals being made “from dust of the earth”, you have a problem.

  10. John says:

    tANYA: Remember, you said Adam received the law! You forget what you wrote in your own posts.
    If you take covenant to mean “contract” as you explained, than Adam received it- because his life depended on his obedience to one loving command.

    So u still think that the sin he committed was from the fruit he ate?

    Tanya, eating fruit will never make a man a sinner. it’s clearly you are debunking yourself, defeating your own argument by saying that everything from the start was good when God created them.

    why Tanya, would God restrict adam if his creation is good for human consumption? this only mean that your “all clean animals” is not biblical. your illusion won’t work on me.

  11. Tanya says:

    John said: So u still think that the sin he committed was from the fruit he ate?
    ———-
    No, no. „Eating fruit will never make a man a sinner„- I agree with you! My point is that he was natural, earthly (not heavenly as Onlybegotten Son), so He could not stay obedient to God’s loving command not to eat the fruit! Disobedience to God’s command was sin (similar to Romans 7:9). it’s just Adam did not KNOW that sin – until he was actually disobedient and ate the fruit. Eating the fruit brought Adam to the knowledge of sin – and the sin consisted in not listening to God („do not eat“). The problem was not the fruit itself (the tree was good) – the problem was that the fruit was not intended for them to eat and live by eating from it! It is the same thing you say about created animals – all were good, but not all of them were „good for food“ (let’s say I consider agreeing with you on that).

    Now i am switching to bigger picture, from consumption of animals to consumption of what God clearly said DO NOT EAT. The purpose of the law is „knowledge of sin“, right? God Himself planted the „tree of knowledge of good and evil“. Can we agree that tree was symbol of the Law and the tree was good? Tree was good – but not for humans to eat. Eating gives life, energy to our beings (Jesus bread of life, eating His body etc.) The law is good – but it was never intended for human consumption!! You see how God gave them restriction about not eating something that was good? That’s the key. They couldn’t „eat from the law“ and remain alive. What does it tell you? God’s law is good, perfect – but it does not give life to man. On the other hand, the loving command: DO NOT EAT, was part of the law too. The law of love. „If you love me, you will obey me…“. Law and love are intertwined. Because 1st commandment is I AM YOUR GOD, and about not having others. God is the one you obey (and love). They missed it. Their obedience should have consisted in NOT EATING THE LAW. So yes, we can interpret that symbols to mean that first humans broke God’s covenant of love by not obeying His only commandment of love: DO NOT EAT (MY PERFECT LAW). IT WILL KILL YOU.

  12. John says:

    tANYA: God Himself planted the „tree of knowledge of good and evil

    i will just laugh at your handicap. you are a failure and everything you said was a product of your imagination. mine is biblical. how could you say he planted it?

    Do you read this?

    [When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone – Jas 1:13 ]

    Temptation came from Satan!

    [ The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.- Mathew 4:3 ]

    How dare you!

    • Tanya says:

      Genesis 2:8-9
      „Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.
      The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.“

      Who made both trees grow in the centre of the garden John?

      Temptation is not from God, of course! Now, did i say that God was tempting Adam? No.You assume too much. The tree was in the garden, because God’s law is something GOOD which is by default in the CENTRE of where God is, side by side with the tree of life. Does God know (discern) good and evil? Sure, but He cannot be tempted by it, like humans can! Discerning good from evil is not bad thing in itself:
      Genesis 3:22 „Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil…“
      You think God was ironic here? Don’t think so!
      (But man, unlike God, cannot abide and stick only to good!)

      Romans 7:7-9 „I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “you shall not covet.” 8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;…

      I believe Paul talks about what happened in the garden. (Because Paul never actually lived apart from the Law.) So he most likely speaks about first humans (and possibly about period before the law was given to Israel on Mt. Sinai).
      Anyway, Adam received command: do not eat. Not because fruit in itself was bad– but because God told them not to! Why? Why would God deprive man of something good?
      Because He knew man cannot live by discernment of good and evil (law)! Man needed tree of life (I believe it is Jesus, love or law FULFILLED).

      Romans 7:10-13 „.and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.…
      Adam had one command only: do not eat. Woman saw the good fruit (the lust of the eyes was produced in her by the command „do not eat“)! Commandment „do not“ made her covet the forbidden (good) thing. Now, of course that Adam &woman were not created „bad“ or „sinful“. It would imply that God made a failure. Adam was just NOT perfect (mature) as Onlybegotten Son. 1st Corinthians 15:47 „Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the secondman, came from heaven.“

  13. John says:

    Tanya: Who made both trees grow in the centre of the garden John?

    i sensed that you must be a Jehovah’s witnesses, Tanya. but don’t deny it. i found it the way you misinterpreted these biblical statements. To tell you the truth Jehovah was not the father of Jesus. you can argue what you wish to argue, i can disprove your entire doctrine over this false concept of God if there’s a time for me to do it.

    the trees that were planted in the garden of Eden are only symbolic form for knowledge. God would never plant this good-evil tree to make the man fall. well in that case you are merely accusing God for his fall. because he knows in advance that Adam was weak without God’s holy spirit. it’s the way of life that Adam must choose from and not this literal tree that you were talking about. wake up Tanya!

    God shown Adam whether to go to the God’s way of life or to go to Satan’s. it was a matter of choice for him to decide.

    eating fruits would mean to receive the knowledge in a symbolic way. when God created everything including man, he chose not to remove Satan from his dominion and his presence caused to have the first man fallen by luring him to go to the worldly way or to the satan’s way.

    God instructed him to obey the his law through faith but Adam rejected it and he chose his five senses to be the tools in knowing the best for human to live.
    Now if we assumed your own interpretation to be the truth, then there’s the reason for man to blame him for the fall. however, that’s not the way it was. you are defining yourself through your false assumptions.

    What are the five senses that Eve employed? can you guess them through this paragraph?

    [ When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it]

    relying on these five senses will run in contrast to God’s faith.

    • Tanya says:

      John,

      wrong assumptions…again. I am not Jehova’s witness, sorry to disappoint you, I am barely familiar with their doctrine! (And you obviously are not familiar either if you „sense“ i am). Instead of guessing my religious background (which I am wiilling to share, no problem, but it’s not relevant here), you’d better only read what I wrote and compare it with the Bible (and not your pre-conceived notions). Let the Holy Spirit to lead you into the whole truth. I reccommend whole book of Romans, reading it slowly, humbly, especially chapters 3-8.

      John said: To tell you the truth Jehovah was not the father of Jesus.
      —————-
      What? Two (2) Gods John?! The whole Bible is about 1 God from Adam-Abraham-Moses&Israel-Jesus! In the first 5 books of Moses, you say there are 2 „Gods“?!

      KJB, Exodus 6:3, God is speaking to Moses: „And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, bythe name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.“

      Jahwe, JHWH, Jehovah revealed Himself to Moses and gave Israel the big 10 that you so vehemently advocate! Are you saying Jesus’ father is NOT the same God who gave 10 comm.? Then why you insist on obeying 10 comm.? (you see your own contradictions?)

      My point: It is the same God, one and only, from the start – it’s just PROGRESSIVE way of revealing Himself to people! A superior being cannot reveal himself to us just like that, all at once. Even Jesus said to His disciples „There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now.“ (cause they didn’t have Holy Spirit inside of them). Your mom was always your mom, she just treated YOU differently when you were 5 than when you were 20 yrs. God doesn’t change.

      You said: God would never plant this good-evil tree to make the man fall.. you are merely accusing God for his fall.
      ————–
      He did not do it to „make the man fall“! You did not read my post carefully. No accusing of God on my part! “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?'” On the other hand you actually did accuse God of planting „evil“ tree!
      Why did luring functioned John? Natural man… first stage of manhood, I reckon from the Bible- while Jesus is completeness that Adam lacked. It is not I who wrote 1st Corinthians 15:47!

      Temptation is from Satan and flesh! Testing of our faith is from God!

      „Holy Spirit led Jesus in the desert to be tempted by the devil“ (Matthew 4:1, Luke 4).

      John said: it’s the way of life that Adam must choose from
      ————–
      Yes. Choosing between listening to God („do not consume law, it will result in your death“) or his wife (who listened to serpent and her natural senses that focused on how tree (law) was beautiful, good and desirable)! The fact is: God did not say to Adam: „Because you relied on your 5 senses“, but He did said Genesis 3:17 “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’“… God didn’t focus on blaming Adam for relying on his senses (even though it would be legitimate too), but on his disobedience to His voice (one command given for life „do not eat law“).

      John said: God instructed him to obey the his law through faith but Adam rejected it
      —————-
      What „instruction“ and what law are you talking about in the Garden? There was 1 command:„Do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil“ (that tree is „symbolic“ of the LAW, if you insist on symbolism)! „Listen to ME and don’t eat from my good and pleasant law“ – THAT was the „law“ given to Adam!!!
      Faith, yes, in what God told him (do not eat, or you’ll die)! But natural man, different from Onlybegotten Son chose someone else to listen to! Romans 8:7 …mind set on flesh…
      I am not excusing Adam, BUT whole point is: in natural we are all adam(s)! Nobody in his position, in the natural, would have done differently, that’s the point!

      Have you ever thought about why God gave for consumption eeeeevery other tree and forbid only the one which would give them knowledge that only God had? Tree is not just „symbolic form“ for any knowledge“! What knowledge John, cooking, chemistry, math? Come on! God forbid consumption of very specific form of knowledge – good from evil (which is the law)!!!
      Later, He gave big 10 to Israel to show them their utter incapability to obey 10 comm. and live by their obedience! Ministry of death and condemnation… or, oh, oh were they given by another god?? (irony!)
      Who gave the big 10 to Israel (knowing full well they will not obey)?

      Deuteronomy 8:2: 2″You shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

      What is God’s command for life NOW? Big 10 again? No. Man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

      What proceeds NOW out of the mouth of the Lord?

      THEN:

      Deuteronomy 5:22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

      BUT NOW:
      Hebrews 12:18-19 For you have NOT COME to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind,19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them.…

      We have not come into covenant that „bears children who are to be slaves“ (Galatians 4.24).

      • John says:

        Tanya: What? Two (2) Gods John?! The whole Bible is about 1 God from Adam-Abraham-Moses&Israel-Jesus! In the first 5 books of Moses, you say there are 2 „Gods“?!

        You must be a denial queen, Tanya. well, thanks for that gesture. your revelations are quite enormous and superb in acting. I must say you are the best actress I ever met here.

        so you still don’t believe that Jesus was not a God? but not only that he was the father in the old testament times. that’s the truth of the matter. He was a spokesman in John 1:1 and, therefore, the only acquainted person in the time of Abraham (john 8:58)

        don’t be afraid to accept this new doctrine, it won’t violate the oneness of God. because according to the Genesis 2:24;

        [a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.]

        did you see the rule of the thumb? To God, one doesn’t necessarily mean one individual person but TWO PERSONS.

        This analogy fell the same with the Godhead and since God created man from his image, everything that God possessed or whatever a number of persons which made God a group is manifested on man that he created.

        always remember this that Man, a product of his creation was God in the human flesh. he is a replica of the real God. if a man is a married man, how would you accept God as a Married God too?

        this is a big trial for all of you, a challenge that will demolish all kinds of human doctrines.

        • Tanya says:

          Denial queen?! Actress? More clarity please, I don’t get you…I said that from the time of Adam throughout history, till Jesus’time and today, there is only One God from Genesis to Revelation. You obviously have problem with that, so you must be a strange type of judaizer.

          “so you still don’t believe that Jesus was not a God?”- typing mistake? You ment that i believe that Jesus was not a God?
          Of course, Jesus is God the Father incarnated in flesh during his ministry on earth! Isaiah 9:6
          Before Abraham was I AM!
          Since you don’t accept progressive revelation towards humans the following must be puzzle and contradiction to you:
          Exodus 24:10-11 “..and they saw the God of Israel;…Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”
          John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.
          They “saw” God, yet “no one has ever seen God”. How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction (which is no contradiction at all)?

          Adam and woman were created to reflect God with their union, oneness of 2. Genesis 1:27 First woman though was deceived which true Bride of Christ never is.

          The Church is Melkisedek’s flesh, body on earth. Every part of your body partakes (has benefits) of all the food that goes through your mouth (head). You see analogy? Sharing!! In a harmonized and healthy body every part cooperates with other parts according to God given measure ascribed to each part – which is surely not 10%!

      • John says:

        Tanya: We have not come into covenant that „bears children who are to be slaves“ (Galatians 4.24).

        No matter how we discussed laws of slavery, you’re still not learning from all the posts that I put in here.

        once again and i hope would be the last, the ten commandments that was given to Moses by GOD are not a burdensome.

        Now if the laws of God are the result of their bondage, who do u think to be blamed?

        sometime you need to listen to my lectures or employ your logic instead of barking.

        • Tanya says:

          “Barking”? Whey you have no sensible arguments from Scriptures you resort to insults. Typical of frustrated judaizer.
          God’s commandments to love are not burdensome to a person filled with the Holy Spirit. To those who don’t belong to Christ, yes they are. That’s why you dissipate hatred all over.

          • John says:

            Tanya: God’s commandments to love are not burdensome to a person filled with the Holy Spirit.

            it confuses me of your sudden turned. you said, the ten commandments are burdensome and you’re quoting it from Paul’s Romans 8:21 in reference to bondage.

            which commandment of God do you think is considered a burdensome?

            Tanya, this time don’t deny this question.

      • John says:

        Tanya: No accusing of God on my part!

        Denial Queen!

        [ for a tree is recognized by its fruit – Mathew 5:33]

  14. John says:

    Tanya: Anyway, Adam received command: do not eat. Not because fruit in itself was bad– but because God told them not to! Why? Why would God deprive man of something good?

    I suggest that you should refrain reading the bible like a comic book.
    your interpretation will only make God a center of humiliation. God would never do such that thing to make a man fall.

    [ When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone ]

    [ but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.]

    from James.

    • Tanya says:

      Oh, and our own evil desires go back to…? Natural man who don’t listen to God but to created being (whoever it might be). Woman blamed serpent, Adam blamed woman (and God who gave her to him), you blame Adam…when in fact, you would do the same in his shoes.. We were all adams in the natural John.

      • John says:

        Tanya: We were all adams in the natural

        what are u talking about? yet your doctrines show that God is the culprit, a cause of Man mysteries, right Tanya?

        • Tanya says:

          Mistery? You use word “mystery” whenever you have no Bible-based explanation. “i do not know” are not dirty words john.

          1 Corinthians 15:45-49
          So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
          As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
          Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

          You know what John, I won’t be replying to you anymore. No one else reads our posts and you avoid clear and honest communication. May God help you and bless you. Good bye.

          • John says:

            Well Tanya, you should very proud of it that no one wants to read your post.
            otherwise, you’ll be filled with bitterness when you read their negative response toward your pointless arguments that you’d been putting in.

            My position about tithe remained the same and no biblical proof found that this law was abolished.

            Thank you Tanya!

  15. John says:

    This probably would be my last post to get my points across about this tithing controversy. although, i’d been posting here for the past few weeks about these words found in Mathew 5:17 belying their proof that opposed to our biblical truth from the beginning.

    but i received a plenty of negative response from people who had been lectured otherwise opposed to what the bible said. yes, they failed to back it up with strong proof for a healthy conversation and whatever we’d been through after all the times of exchanged here are mere opinions and speculations.

    i am writing again for the last time to bring my biblical truth that would straighten-out the errors they received from the past

    Mathew 5:17 was all about the ten commandments of God being demonstrated by Jesus on how a person should keep in order to be saved. it’s not about a prophetic message about Christ to suffer. why?

    First, the message about his sufferings has no connection to the law. because it wasn’t called a law and therefore not a law. how could someone take this message and made it a law? which would last up to the end of times? really, we need to employ our logic here. there was no such thing as a prophetic message turned into a law. because they just encountered the word “fulfill the law” and they interpreted it otherwise based on what they perceived as that ?

    Second, if this law would mean to last up to the end time, how would these people ignore this fact that this law IS TO LAST at the end of times? They simply want to ignore it just to fit their human concept.

    Third, if this law is meant for his fulfilling a vow then this law must be in reference to Christ translated as the chosen one. so why would Jesus preach this law to the Jews WHEN NOONE IN THE CROWDS KNEW WHO JESUS WAS? The Jews viewed Jesus as a carpenter and not the Christ, please read this with your own eyes!

    [“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? – Mathew 13:55]

    so they were totally in amazement and no clues of who was he. all what they got about him was limited only as carpenter. but some presumed him as a prophet. yet prophet is not the same as Christ in terms of class or level. prophet is equivalent to a teacher and the people accepted him as that. But not a Christ who would save the world from sins.

    [ Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, “Who do the CROWDS say I am?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life.- Luke 9:18-19 ]

    so who were those few people who believed that Jesus was the Christ?

    [“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God – Mathew 16:15-16 ]

    So now we can draw our conclusion about this law that was mentioned in Mathew 5:17 is not a kind of vow that was intended for Jesus to fulfill, but a kind of law or a ten commandments for the people to keep as it was being shown by his examples in Mathew 5: 21 and 27 with regards to Murder and Adultery. because the people had no clues who Jesus was, a proof that can be considered as a case.

    Now if the ten commandments of God was to stay according to Mathew 5, how sure the tithing law would not?

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

*