Many have asked me, “why tithing”? Of all the things to study and debate, why have I chosen tithing? Right off the bat, I don’t really know why the topic of tithing fires me up so much, so I found 5 good reasons to get fired up about the tithing debate.
The Love of Money is the Root of all Kinds of Evil
I almost said that money is the root of evil. I think I write that because my mind is always on autopilot. Money is not the root of all kinds of evil. The LOVE of money is. Sure, tithing is a good discipline to rid greed from those who are giving, but what about those who are receiving? There are many out there who are extorting God’s word for the gain of money. Many of you think about televangelists, but that’s just a few on TV. There are many more who desire more and more money to build more and more of their kingdom. Sure, many of them think that God gave them this vision to do this or that. Tithing allows them to build their own dreams and mandate others to pay for it. It’s not necessarily that they love money; they love what money can build.
Tithing in the New Testament Church is Against Scripture
Plain and simple and probably the most important factor that inspires my quest against tithing. I’m not going to spout out any scripture to prove tithing wrong. I’ve done plenty of that already in the past. I believe with all of my heart, that tithing is unbiblical. I do not have an ounce of doubt in my heart or mind about it. I wish i could take what i’ve learned and play it in a movie, or write it in a book. Words and pictures will not do justice to what the Spirit of God has enlightened in my heart.
Tithing Extorts the Poor and Excuses the Rich
I’ve seen churches investigate many members to figure out if they are tithing. If a rich man has been tithing, he is let go and forget about. But if a poor man is not tithing, and needs help or assistance in paying his bills, the church will first investigate his finances to see if he tithed. If he did, then they will check his spending records and make sure he isn’t spending too much on other things.
The church will try everything to get out of helping this poor man. They will show how he can spend less here and there, and yet still ask him to pay his tithes. They think no one has an excuse not to tithe. They don’t even realize that in scripture it was the poor who received tithes. What about the rich, why pick on them? They paid their tithes, didn’t they? Is a tithe really what God expects of them or is that what WE are expecting from them? Tithing is unjust and unfair.
Jesus Talked about Money More than any other Subject
Obviously, nothing has more of a hold on people than money does. If Jesus talked about it so much then it must be crucial. I’m not a financial guru. I flunked accounting in high school. But I do know that the flow of money going in and out of the church should be a much-discussed topic. Disagree? Don’t mark my words, look at Jesus’. He talked about it more than sin, heaven, and hell.
Giving statistics stated that religious organizations brought in 103 billion dollars last year. We have done very little with the 103 billion dollars and we complain that we could do more if only more tithed. It is calculated that we spend 85% of what we take in on ourselves. As a matter of fact, only 3% goes towards ministering to the needs of the unsaved. No wonder the world thinks the Church is greedy. It’s not because we are constantly asking for money. it’s because we keep it all to ourselves.
This is besides the point. How the Church receives its funds is important. If tithing is in place then people are not free to give to other places that God is leading them to give. Instead, people are handcuffed to an organization that spends more and more on themselves.
Tithing Challenges me to Study God’s Word
I will admit, I’m not the encourager or exalter in the group. I like to dissect things with my mind and find solutions to fix the problems. If i see a problem I will speak up. I won’t if everything is going right, I just expect it to. I’m very opinionated, and debates really fuel my fire. I love them. Am I contentious? Sometimes, yes. I try to work on that. I don’t like to pick fights for no reason. But I love a good challenge. There is nothing biblically wrong with wanting to debate God’s word. Your motives must be pure, and you have to be extra careful about how your attitude shows Christ.
Everyone has their methods to help them get fired about God. For some, it’s to look for those who need emotional help. Others, it’s to look for those who need some teaching. It’s all different for all of us. We are all wired different ways. I’d like to say that the greatest Christian is the one who is most balanced, but more than likely that Christian doesn’t fit in many places. We are different members with different things that drive our motivation. If we are the hands, then doing things with our hands motivates us. If we are the head, then using our thinking or leadership skills motivates us. We are all driven by different things.
So many People are Believing the Wrong Thing
This just hurts to see the number of people who are believing the wrong thing. I’m on a quest to help as many as I can to see the truth in God’s Word. If there was no one to convince, then I probably wouldn’t get into tithing. But it’s a challenge for me, and there are many who need help and do not know the truth. At one time I didn’t know the truth. You can read about it in my tithing testimony. It is great to hear testimonies from those who have been freed by the teachings of God’s word about tithing. I do not want to diminish the fact of giving sacrificially, but at the same time, people are locked up in chains and need to be freed from the tithing mandate first in order to truly understand sacrificial giving.
Gwaine says
@freewill,
Thank you for your concerns. Let me briefly address them:
On the contrary, I’m not occupying a middle ground between two camps, nor am I being neutral or passive. If you carefully go through my concerns, you’d find that I deplore extremes on EITHER side; and it’s quite unfortunate when Christians would have to resort to “tactics” to discuss “truth”.
Rather than a middle ground, or playing into either camp with extreme assertions that are misplaced, my eyes have always been on 2 Cor. 9:7-8, which was what I quoted after replying to Marty: “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; … And God is able to make all grace abound toward you.”
When someone says that “only one side is correct”, they may be largely unware of the many fallacies in the arguments of those that those they suppose are “correct”. Let me take just one example: if someone argues that Melchizedek was a pagan priest who did not know nor worship the same God as Abraham did, where would you expect me to stand? Now, I have found quite a number of people on EITHER side (pro- and anti-thiers) making this same fallacious argument; but the moment I rejected that argument, it put me outside both camps arguing paganism for Melchizedek! You are free to choose whether or not to believe that arguments; but between both camps making the same arguments, who is “correct” and who is “wrong”? What this illustrates is simple: people say I have to be on one side – preferrably on their preferred side – but when both sides argue what they can’t defend from Scripture, my friends get uneasy and even offended that I’m completely outside both camps arguing that oft-repeated mistake. This is why I’m being careful in engaging people’s views. I don’t care what anyone calls themselves on either side of the debate; but what is far more important to me is that they can point me to God’s Word in all simplicity and not make wild statements that they cannot defend from Scripture.
As regards your enquiry, people cannot use either tithes or “Spirit-led” giving to FORCE anyone to give anything! Using one or the other to project a false idea is as manipulative and unethical for Christians as we would disavow in any ungodly practice at anytime. But what is the “real issue” at the end of the day – is it just “10%”, or “MORE THAN 10%”, or rather people being MANIPULATIVE with disguised language? I’ve said several times that I’m not stuck on 10% or any percentage for that matter (whether anyone believes that or not); for whatever one gives is also a percentage of what they possess. The more serious concern for me is the strained arguments that people use to manipulate their own position either way – the example above about Melchizedek being a case in point. So, does Melchizedek have to be “a pagan priest” just to argue for ‘pro-tithe’ or ‘anti-tithe’? Is that not an example of being manipulative in Biblical exegesis?
As in my challenge to Marty, here again: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10?) – DO AS YOU MAY!” Does that sound like I set a “BENCHMARK” anywhere? In matters like this, let everyone be “fully persuaded in his own mind” (Rom. 14:5 and 2 Cor. 9:7-8) rather than applauding the otiose assertions of people who cannot intelligently defend their vacant assertions from God’s Word.
Shalom.
Gwaine says
Hi Marty,
Glad to read from you again. Please don’t misinterpret my persuasion on this – and you can see where I stand in these matters from my rejoinders to both Jared and freewill.
Your pastor may have let you down, and perhaps that’s why you referred to him as a hypocrite. It seems you only confirmed the bigger issue that is of more concern to me than any percentages (1%, .1%, 10%, 15%, etc.) – bigger issue in the sense that people are being manipulated more than they realise, and often we are all too quick to blame it all on tithes. The gimmick in this sort of thing is that we worry about “1 out of 10” (10%), and then come back patting ourselves on the back that we’re giving “freely” and ABOVE that same thing we worry about. When are we believers going to refrain from this flawed logic?
Nothing has shifted from my position, and again I would repeat it here: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10?) – DO AS YOU MAY!” One “unpaid bills” cannot be blamed on tithes or ANY tithe of giving.
Em, dear Marty, I should go it easy with you (since we’re all seeking to mature in the faith). But then, WHO ever told you that “grace” is a “Law” (the Law of grace‘)?! You’re making your case even far more tedious for yourself – there’s no such thing as the “law of grace”, for it’s the funniest misnomer I ever read.
However, for those who often make this argument that “tithing is done under the Law is by command“, please go back and re-read what most anti-tithers have argued. On the one hand they tell you as a Christian to give NOT as a “command”; and then we come across the same people who disavow tithing arguing that they give by a “command” in the NT. This is the same manipulation that weakens the strained arguments on either side. Please be consistent: if you detest ANY giving because of a “command”, then you have no business giving ANYTHING as a “command” at anytime! This is the same trap that people fall into and then come back complaining that they are being “FORCED” into giving money.
Regards.
Jared Brian says
Gwaine,
I am interested in seeing an argument that you entered in with a pro-tither?
Gwaine says
Lol, Jared, I’m not that polarised, sorry. Rather than adopt a partisan spirit of being for either of the two extremist camps, I’m more interested in what anyone is saying – if they argue Biblically or being vacantly assertive.
I’ve given you links where I’ve discussed some issues and stated a few things – even with some who say they are tithers.
One such example:
Someone by the username of “another believer” shares with me that he/she is a tither: “i pay my tithes but i won’t allow my house payment to go unpaid”. In response I also stated that: “I have no problem with anyone tithing or choosing to not do so” – I did not start jumping up and down the street that here is someone who is a tither, and therefore I “must” agree with him/her. (here is the blog: http://www.christianpf.com/obeying-god/comment-page-1/#comment-9603 ).
What this means is simple: it is not a “benchmark” that is of concern to me – and there is NOT a single place where I have tried to argue FOR 10%. Not a single time in your blog or elsewhere. What is of far more importance to me is this: when people discuss, they should be careful to hold a healthy exegesis, and it does not matter to me whatever they call themselves. This was why I was concerned that Russell in that blog was “appealing to that same misleading idea to press on others” that he himself was unable to sustain from Scripture.
What you’re doing is making a tedious case for yourself, because you have adopted the mindset that I “MUST” be pro-tither by defualt simply because I do not agree with your assertions which you have been unable to sustain in Scripture. So, if you seem to be desperate to label me as such, could be the reason why you may be assuming that I have been partisan and sympathetic to pro-tithe teachers?
Believe me (or not), if I saw something which you stated that could not be faulted, I would stand to defend it – not because you’re a tither or anti-tither. And whatever was anyone’s position, if there was something unbiblical which they are asserting, my responses would still be the same. Just as the same, I have noted earlier on another page of this blog that there was much to appreciate in the article on the homepage – so that you know I’m not taking a default to harangue you at every point.
In all this, if there’s something you may wish to draw my attention to, I’m still very open to dialogue. If not, I wish you well all the same.
Many blessings.
Jared Brian says
Gwaine,
I would love to respond, and respond, and respond some more, but i cannot continue this conversation because of time. I know that you have pointed out some polarized ideas that i have stated, and i agree with some of them. The pagan Melchizedek is one of them that i’ve been meaning to edit out of my website for some time.
Anyways, we gonna have to agree to disagree on the other issues. Thanks for taking the time to discuss with me.
– jared brian
Tony Isaac says
Hi there, if I may chip into this discussion which was actually a bit of a chore to follow. I would direct my comments at Gwaine.
I noticed that the discussion was almost attaining a philosophical dimension rather than being scriptural based. It is not about people not being able to pay their bills or about people being burdened with a ten percent bench mark. It is about what the scriptures say. The doctrine of tithing is not a new testament doctrine, it does not enjoy scriptural support. For the new dispensation, people are encouraged to give what they can afford and are happy with and not a prescribed minimum 10%. Thats it.
What’s rather ironic is, God is more interested in your relationship with him than with the amounts of money you give to him sacrifically. This you ought to do without leaving the other undone.
Gwaine don’t be philosophical with God’s word, going about trying to poke holes in everyone’s view. State your point and support it with scriptures so we all could learn.
Gwaine says
Hi Tony,
Thank you for your observations. My rejoinders were not philosophical; and yes, your requests have already been met all through the points I made, viz:
1. I’ve stated my point clearly;
2. I’ve offered Scripture for my persuasions;
3. I’ve not been going about trying to poke holes in everyone’ view;
4. I have not argued to set ANY benchmark for anyone at all – please go back and see the case yourself;
5. I have not been unduely concerned with HOW MUCH anyone gives (which was why I offered a challenge that people should “DO AS YOU MAY” and not excuse their “unpaid bills” on tithes or any other type of giving);
6. “This you ought to do WITHOUT LEAVING the other undone” – which is precisely WHY I’ve been very wary and cautious of polarised arguments that strain towards either of the extreme camps.
It’s okay if you may not have seen that my discussions were based directly on Scripture; which makes me wonder what I have been quoting, pointing out, and discussing from the “Bible”. But whatever the case, I’ve often noted that strained arguments (whether “for” or “against”) which resort to all kinds of extraneous assertions often tend to be weak when closely examined in the light of SCRIPTURE.
I’m not trying to win any arguments either way (“for”, “against”, nor even “neutral”). Yet, when I make a response anywhere, my point has always been to appeal for a healthy balance on the subject being discussed. It is not so much any percentage that is of concern to me as much as that people pay some close attention to the IMPLICATIONS and PRACTICAL VALUE of what they argue for.
Regards.
Tony Isaac says
Hi Gwaine,
I have painstakingly tried to read all of your posts and I think I understand where you are coming from; you are against extremes on both end of the spectrum. Which is indeed something to think about.
I am tempted to agree with you that condemning the doctrine of tithing because it is a burden is really not a wholesome reason to reject the teaching BUT that could be an indication that something is wrong with. Jesus says that His yoke is easy and burden light.
However, reading through your comments, I am tempted to arrive at the conclusion that you are an anti-tither. You have quoted the cornerstone of New Testament giving; cheerfully giving what you can afford. This makes me wonder why all the arguments in the first place. Those who advocate tithing have actually taken to it to very unbiblical proportions making it a tool of extortion quite like the Catholic’s sale of indulgence. You are told that if you do not pay your tithe, God would be angry with you and He will punish you ever so severely. Some churches have made it a requirement for membership as well as leadership. They misquote and misapply scriptures to support their stance. Congregants are coerced and forced to part with a mandatory 10% of their monthly income even though quite a number of them cannot genuinely afford it. It then becomes a chore, a burden and one does it rather grudgingly. It then begins to look like trying to please God by works or trying to earn God’s approval through acts of good will. That is unbiblical.
Those that say that they give over 10% have a problem in my opinion. Who wants to know what they give? Are they expecting man’s commendation, a pat on the back or some brownies points? Like you said let every man be fully persuaded in his heart in his dealings with God without trying to compel others to do the same. Which is one of the problems with this doctrine of tithing. If it is of God, why should people be compelled to do it?
We are all saying the same thing; give what you can afford and give it cheerfully. That being said though, it would seem like we are straining a gnat while swallowing a camel as in; giving is not the most important aspect of Christianity, our relationship with God is.
Gwaine says
Tony,
I cannot be thankful enough for your wisdom.
However, it may be difficult for me to persuade people about my nonpartisan stance: which is, I’m not particular about tithing or not tithing. Yet, that is not to say that I’m therefore passive, neutral or apathetic to the subject. Rather, within the matrix of 2 Cor. 9:7 (“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give”), I’ve seen some people who have indeed “purposed” in their hearts to tithe a certain amount of their income to the Lord – and I’ve seen His hand blessing them evidently! The amazing thing is that these dear folks were deep in debt BEFORE they took upon themselves to tithe, and there are many people who can attest to the evidence of the Lord rewarding their faith.
This sort of testimonies broaden my convictions that we cannot stereo-type the ways of God: which is why I’m often deeply moved when I encounter extreme arguments, whether “for” or “against” tithing. I think the core problem is shared by both of us here, and many others elsewhere – which is, the tendency of some teachers to reach their conclusions through extraneous (and often dubious) arguments, as was aptly expressed in yours:
True – and I’ve seen this happen again and again on BOTH sides of the tithing debate.
In things of this nature, I believe that Rom. 14:5 could be helpful – “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind”.
Cheers.
Tony Isaac says
Hi Gwaine,
Thank you too. Your line of argument made me reflect on this issue really deeply. We on both sides of the divide have no right to force our opinions on anyone. The fact is if everything is done UNTO the Lord, then there is no problem.
However, I would not lie to you; I have felt very aggrieved over this tithe doctrine because I was taken advantage of and even made to feel guilty because of it. I did my research and found out the truth and was liberated. From time to time the old hurts do appear when some unscrupulous preacher uses it as a weapon of mass extortion; it cuts my heart.
That not withstanding, the amount to give has to be a personal decision and not the result of blackmail, arm-twisting and threats. Maybe we have pushed the pendulum too far, human nature being what it is.
You are right that there are some people that believe in the 10% and have received financial blessings, that would be because they made the decision by themselves to tithe and where not coerced into it. This brings to mind the scripture that says one man considers one day holier than others while another considers all days alike and as far as they both do it unto the Lord, it is fine. Also anything not done in faith is certainly a sin.
Anyways, God bless you and I sure would like to pick your brains on some other topics. You can drop a line or two on my blog.
Ta
Jared Brian says
I don’t think anyone here has a problem with anyone pledging 10% of their income to God. It’s not the pledge, nor the percentage in and of itself that anti-tithers are against.
Anyone is free to purpose in their heart to give 10%. That is not the argument here, nor will it ever be the argument, for me at least.
The argument is all about the “purpose”. Obeying the tithe because you think it is commanded is not a biblical purpose. The problem is that their purpose is unbiblical from the very roots. This is not a polarized statement.
Ok, let’s just say that a pro-tither is truly cheerful and honored to give a tenth. The maturity of their motives are still built upon the wrong truth. Good motives and wrong truth still lead down the wrong path.
I’m not arguing about giving from the heart. I’m talking about the purpose of giving based on the wrong truth.
Gwaine says
Again, thank you Tony. Most people I’ve contacted on this issue have experiences to recount one way or the other – I deeply feel for them (and for myself). I’ll visit to enjoy your blog and drop a few lines in due course.
Many blessings.
Gwaine says
Hi Jared,
I’ll appreciate your thoughts as always. However, there are a few concerns that continue to surface as worrisome.
Not true – that is precisely what people like Russell Kelly have argued hard and long against! You may not be arguing against 10%, but appealing to the arguments of those who are specifically against “10%” does not convince anyone otherwise.
If we are consistent in our persuasions, then we should also avoid partisan remarks against anyone on either side, such as this against pro-tithers like “the maturity of their motives are still built upon the wrong truth”. You perhaps may wish it so, but that is not a healthy way to dialogue. How would YOU know the motives of everyone who tithes in order to judge such motives as “built upon the wrong truth”?!
Perhaps, this problem of unceremoniously and frivolously adjudicating people’s motives is one reason why there’s been reactions like this:
The second problem is equally worth noting:
Just think about it for a minute: suppose I were to argue strenuously against tithes with the “wrong truth”, will that not be the same thing as to “still lead down the wrong path”?! There are many “wrong truths” that anti-tithers have used in their arguments, and some of them have been recycled ad infinitum by others who have taken the anti-tithing position by default. Should it then be inferred that they also are led down the “wrong path”?
In things like these, I’ve often appealed simply: let’s not make ourselves the victims of other people’s arguments. This is the reason why I’ve refused to adopt a partisan position and instead appeal for a healthy balance. Whatever our convictions or purpose(s) on the subject, it helps to refrain from polarised assertions.
On the whole, I’m thankful that we could have the opportunity to address several concerns on the subject. May the Lord continue to enrich your labours for His Name.
Shalom.
Jared Brian says
Not True!? I can’t account for all, but through my all the discussions i’ve been in through my blog, website, forum interaction, and groups, i have seen very very few people who say give anything, just don’t give 10%.
As far as I know, as long as a person is not pursuaded through a tithing command, Dr. Kelly is not against anyone giving 10%. I’ve read many of Dr. Kelly’s words, and i’ve never seen the statement, "give anything you want except 10%". Even if he did say that, my mouth never has uttered that argument. Holding my stance accountable to every point of view that Dr Kelly holds because i support some of his other points is definitely twisting the facts of what i stand for.
I don’t know the motives. I never said i did. I used to believe in the tithing doctrine and tithed myself with pure motives, but i was still down the wrong path. Right motives and the wrong path are still the wrong path. You believe that tithing is not for everyone, and yet, many people trap themselves and others to the chains of the tithing doctrine. I know that all they want to do is obey God’s word and be sacrificial with their giving, but they follow the wrong truth. Many false teachings believe that your way of inheriting blessings in eternity is through your motives. Are right motives what one needs in order to obtain eternal glory with the father? Or is there a way, and a truth?
Yes, you are correct, anti-tithers have used wrong truths in their arguments. But anti-tithers are correct that the NT tithing doctrine is not commanded, and that’s at least one error they are not spewing out of their mouth. On the other hand pro-tithers are not only spewing out the error of tithing, but also the error that they use to support their error. Pro-tithers, aren’t given the choice to travel the right path because they are never shown it. They are forced down the wrong path because the freewill option of giving is kept hidden by threats of curses, promises of blessings, and plain and simple misinterpretation of scripture.
Gwaine says
@tithes,
Many thanks again. Just to point out a few inconsistencies:
I’m sorry, this deviates from your original premise and argument, viz: “It’s not the pledge, nor the percentage in and of itself that anti-tithers are against” – that’s what is false, for that’s what they have been against! If you’d like to see the evidence for this, I could offer you a ton of quotes from your own arguments and articles in your blog and website precisely to the point.
You may hardly find anti-tithers making doctored statements such as “give anything, just don’t give 10%“, but the substance of their argument has always been against anything “10%”. If it does not matter and has not been that at all, WHY have anti-tithers worried themselves endlessly about the term “TITHE”? WHY have these dear folks been worried about what anyone gives and argued AGAINST “10%”?!? You may try to play down the fact, but ‘anti-tithers’ have argued more against “10%” than anything else, and there’s no need for us to deny the reality of this or pretend otherwise.
And no, I don’t hold you personally accountable for Russell Kelly’s or anyone’s arguments – but if people resort to his misplaced theology on the subject to argue against “10%”, they make themselves the victims of his arguments, which is what I have often cautioned against.
What I wonder is why anyone would be trying to adjudicate on other people’s motives, while yet claiming that “I don’t know the motives”. Let’s grant your latest claim that you DON’T KNOW the motives, what then is the substance of your previous claim that “The maturity of their motives are still built upon the wrong truth”?! This was something that puzzled me – for if someone does not know the motives of others, would it not be preposterous for them to adjudicate on what they do not know?
While I’m not trying to be tedious, my hope has always been that we avoid strained assertions – because they cannot be sustained as valid when closely examined.
A misrepresentation of Scripture happens in BOTH camps, so don’t play this partisan gimmick repeatedly.
Anti-tithers simply assume that “tithing” is an “error”, and yet they are often tongue-in-cheek when confronted about the “10%” they decry endlessly!
Let’s just get real: if anti-tithers define tithe by default as “10%” (and that is their prevailing notion on the subject), why is it that when called to smart up for the substance of their argument, they often duck with excuses of “it is not the 10% that we are against!” This double-talk is one of the serious maladies people have in debating this issue. Who really cares what “percentage” anyone gives to warrant a serious debate AGAINST just “10%”?
However, I appreciate and share with you the concern about doctrinal error – and that is why I don’t appeal to other people’s arguments by rote for my persuasions, lest I would not be able to defend them. On either side, people may have good points for their arguments:
(a) anti-tithers say that it is UNBIBLICAL or an “error”; reason – “the BIBLE doesn’t command the tithe“;
(b) pro-tithers contend that there’s not a single verse (OT and NT) that explicitly condemns tithes.
One could deflate the arrogance of the assertion in (a) above, simply on the premise that the “BIBLE” is both the OT and the NT – so to say that tithes are not commanded in the “BIBLE” is sadly missing the point.
Yet, I often caution my friends that (as far as I know), the NT epistles do not “command” tithes; although I acknowledge the fact they are correct that no single verse condemns tithes in the “BIBLE” – not one!
The dilemma for most anti-tithers is the appeal to arguments from the OT Law, which has been grossly mishandled in their interpretations! Not only has Melchizedek been turned into a pagan priest, but for these folks, everything about “tithes” must be forced back to the Law! If that is not being hideously mischievous, tell me what is. The very “Law” that they dispel and dismiss entirely, is the same Law that they appeal to for some other “convenient” Christian doctrines.
What we need is a balance to properly identify the ‘real problems’ on money matters in our faith. We just can’t accuse “tithes” as being responsible for all our financial struggles, unpaid bills, disenchantments with our local pastors, etc.
If some Christians desire and have “purposed in their hearts” to tithe a certain amount (whatever it may be – less or more than “10%”), they should be allowed to freely do so in the matrix of 2 Cor. 9:7 – “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give”. Or, in the exhortation of Rom. 14:5, “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind” – even if they are persuaded to give ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Further, while promoting “free will” giving, we cannot use that as an argument for “NT commandment”. People should be consistent here: if someone detests giving by “any commandment”, what difference does it make whether such a commandment appears either in the OT or NT? When I read the persuasions of anti-tithers as to their reason for a NT type of giving, I sadly shake my head in disbelief – because they are many times pretending that the principles they argue for in the NT are absent in the OT!
Bottomline: nobody should use any verse from either the OT or NT to FORCE, DRAGOON, COERCE, or BLACKJACK any believer into giving ANYTHING under any “type” of offering! Just as it is unethical to force anyone to tithe, it is equally immoral to argue for a “NT command” under the disguised language of “Spirit-led giving” to pressure believers to stop tithing! “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give” – even if they purpose to give 10% or any other percent of anything for that matter. Real freedom is not arguing from partisan assertions; but rather from seeking a proper balance from God’s Word.
Regards.
freewillgiver says
Friend Gwain
Could you please answer me directly the freewillgiver I love the debate? I understand if you are too busy. Martin Luther the great reformer came against the Catholic shurch for tithing.
When the temple was not destroyed where did Christian Jews tithe? Did they not tithe to the literal temple with the priest and levites? Did Gentile Christians ever tithe to the Jewish temple? Once the temple was destroyed Jewish Christians had no place to tithe.
Did the law of moses ever command a money tithe or a tithe of money? So why do so many Christian leaders preach a 10% money tithe? Were all Jews ever commanded to give 10%? No the Priest and the poor and the no- Jews were outside of the tithing system. Why do ministers say 10% of all Christian money belongs to the local church?
Free will giving is simple give what Jesus puts on your heart. We argue against forced Christian money tithing becase it distorts both the old and the new testement. How can we do more harm than pro tithers? Have you ever recieved money as a result of the money tithing system. I have and I believe tha I was wrong?
Please answer a few of my Questions.
Gwaine says
Hi freewillgiver,
Thank you again for being simple – I wish mine could be as simple as you outlined your concerns. But the reason why I could not do so is that ‘Gwaine’ is neither a pro-tither nor anti-tither. I’m not trying to win a debate for pro-tithers over anti-tithers. So, while addressing your concerns, let me carefully point you to a few things that you may be missing.
Okay, but Martin Luther got a lot of doctrines wrong as well. It is quotes like this that make me say that we should not make ourselves the victims of other people’s arguments. Luther had his own persuasions for his anti-tithing stance; but he was not the final authority on the subject.
You’re making the biggest mistake of recycling Russell‘s misplaced arguments for your persuasion, but I could bear with you. First, the Jews did not tithe to the Temple, it was to the priests that they brought SOME of their tithes; and other tithes were given to others besides the priests (such as widows, fatherless and the poor – Deut. 14:28-29). Bending every single case of Biblical tithes to the Law and the Temple is quite misplaced – this is why there’s so much controversy on the simple case of Genesis 14 where Abraham’s tithes had nothing to do with any Law, Temple, or even paganism.
Yes – please go and do a careful Bible study on Exodus 30:13. If you’re still in doubt, I would only be too glad to show you what you missed. Yet, in my opinion, that is not what supports an argument for NT money tithing.
I don’t know why they do so; yet, I cannot fault any church’s local principles. If that is what they have prescribed for their members, all well and good – but I would not encourage anyone to make that a condition for salvation. The bigger picture is that the term “tithe” is not ONLY 10% every single time it is used in scripture; unfortunately, this is the traditional idea that has nested in so many people’s minds.
Since you have answered your own question, I could easily pass without comments.
However, let me just chip in these:
1. The Priest also offered a tithe [Leviticus 6:19-22]. It is therefore unhealthy to assert that the Priest was outside of the tithing system.
2. As for the non-Jew (or Gentiles) who were among the congregation of Israel, there was only ONE Law that applied to everyone [Numbers 15:16 – “One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you”]. There was not a separate Law for the stranger under the same covenant that governed the lives of the Jews in Judaism.
Please, as always said, be careful in recycling arguments from others – you don’t have to make yourself a victim of their misplaced arguments.
Not all ministers force tithes on their members; and tithes are not defined as ONLY “10%” every single time in Scripture. Some local churches that preach about tithing are not as legalistic as many anti-tithers assume; yet, these local churches understandably use the tithing to help their ministries.
If “freewill” is the only defence for your argument, you’re vacantly wasting your time. Those under the OT Law also gave “freely” as God stirred their hearts to do so; here are a few (emphasis mine)-
1.”Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it WILLINGLY WITH HIS HEART ye shall take my offering.” [Exodus 25:2, KJV]
2. “And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one WHOM HIS SPIRIT MADE WILLING, and they brought the LORD’S offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments” [Exodus 35:21. KJV]
3. “The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses” [Exodus 35:29].
Notice that I’ve restricted my citations to the Law; and this was simply to show what I’ve often noted – in BOTH the OT and NT, people were stirred by God to offer willingly and freely; and even where they did so by a “commandment”, they also rejoiced in it (cf Deuteronomy 16:10-11).
Gwaine says
My arguments are against ANY strained, polarised and misplaced assertion that cannot stand up to Scripture. Like I said earlier – “nobody should use any verse from either the OT or NT to FORCE, DRAGOON, COERCE, or BLACKJACK any believer into giving ANYTHING under any “type” of offering!” Even arguments disguised with such flowery language as “Spirit-led giving” are unfortunately immoral, because often is the case that many of those using such quips are trying to “FORCE” everyone to ‘stop tithing’ – and that is also a distortion that should be deplored.
The harm you may be doing is distorting Scripture to argue an extreme position which you may not have carefully considered yourself – and it’s bad enough when such arguments are simply the recycled arguments of others who can’t defend their own misplaced eisegesis.
Well, bless your heart. I’ve never received money from anyone tithing to me – but if someone does, I’m happy for them as long as they don’t obtain it by base means.
You see, freewillgiver, although I could stand up to face the many arguments of anti-tithers from the Law, I do not necessarily appeal to a literal and legalistic application of every detail of the Law to justify an anti-tithing or a pro-tithing persuasion.
Yes, there are principles in the Bible for tithing – but WHY must we bend every thought of “tithes” to the Jewish Law and the Temple? WHY must we often conclude that the only meaning of a tithe is “10%”, when Scripture reveals otherwise? WHY must anyone make any Law to FORCE others to “stop tithing”? If somebody is uncomfortable about tithing whatever percentage (when they are NOT forced), why get unnecessarily angry, disturbed or perturbed and proverbially throw the baby out with the bath water? My apologies, but I don’t take such extreme views of things.
The point in my responses is that so many Christians are quite used to default anti-tithing arguments without calmly going through God’s Word to see for themselves what is written there on the subject. I implore you to first carefully go through those verses and STUDY them before you’re moved to deny anything. But as ever, I’d be glad to point you to further answers where you may have any doubts particularly on what I’ve offered herein.
I recognize that some very blessed ministers have good arguments on either side; yet in matters like this, Rom. 14:5 has always been helpful to keep in mind: “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind”.
Blessings.
Jared Brian says
Anti-tithers wouldn’t care if 10%, 1%, or 50% was commanded, because it’s the command we are against. I could care less if you circumcize, and follow the biblical diet yourself, but if you think that it’s a command, and convince others that it is also, then there’s a problem. There’s no sense in me saying anything else unless you can grasp this. Your assertations are strained as well. You are trying to extract a position about the anti-tithing stance that is not found in my writings, and is not found in the majority of others as well. We say we are against tithing, in that,we are against it’s command. Yes, i know, the word "tithe" literally means a tenth, and it seems that we are just against anyone giving a tenth. Whenever you hear any anti-tither say we are against tithing, just imagine us saying we are against tithing as a command.
Finally, the truth comes out. You see nothing wrong with requiring others to give a certain percentage of their income, and you see nothing wrong with the side that says you are not required to give a certain percentage. How can you straddle the fence.
You are absolutely wrong here. You hear only what you want to. We uphold the Spirit of the law. We praise the Spirit of the law. We follow the Spirit of the law. We do not follow the letter. Now if a minimum platform in our giving does not SCREAM letter of the law, then i don’t know what else would. Anti-tithers claim to be stewards. We know that 100% belongs to God. We know that giving in any form honors God and claims him owner of our possessions. We claim that faithful, sacrificial, liberal, and cheerful giving reaps rewards. We know that giving is commanded throughout the WHOLE bible. We believe in all the principles of giving the pro-tithers believe in except that tithing is commanded for the NT Church. So please, oh please, you repeat over and over to stray away from assertions, so please do not strain at your argument and put words in my mouth or of other anti-tithers, when simply your accusations are not founded upon any facts. I am telling you that i do not believe what you claim that i believe, and yet you polarize the meaning of my words.
If people gave how the Holy Spirit convicts them to in the first place, then the tithing command is obsolete, void, and pointless. The tithing command forces you to give 10% of your income to your local church, when the Holy Spirit could be telling you to give your money to a poor widow, or a single mother, or a homeless person. You are robbing the needy when you ignore what the Holy Spirit is calling you to do. So yes, i want people to stop tithing when the Holy Spirit is trying to instruct them to give somewhere else besides their church. Also, i want people to stop tithing, if they are in debt, or if their household has needs. These are important reasons to stop tithing, and the Spirit of the Lord gives them liberty to not tithe, or at least give it outside of their church.
Gwaine says
Dear Jared,
From your latest rejoinder, it does not appear you’ve convinced me one bit that you have a thorough grasp of this subject of tithing, nor are you aware what anti-tithers are really up against. Alleging that my arguments are strained is okay – but you’d have to do better than being inconsitent in the body of your persuasions.
This is yet another excuse, since the previous one you gave didn’t work well. However you slice it, no prevarication would cut it for you, nor for many anti-tithers in their arguments. I asked you to simply ask: if you want evidence to the fact that anti-tithers are endlessly worried about a “10%” than anything else, I would be too glad to harvest them from this blog and elsewhere. Yet, I don’t see how that it’s a mere “command” that has been the worry – more than that, I’ve already highlighted this inconsistency: “if someone detests giving by “any commandment”, what difference does it make whether such a commandment appears either in the OT or NT?”
Inspite of that, the “freedom” that many anti-tithers hoot for is weakened by their own appeal to a “NT commandment” to give. This has already been noted in my previous rejoinder as well [reply #18] – || Russell “tried to argue that Christian giving should not be by “any commandment”, and here you unwittingly sang his contradiction by making NT giving a “command” – directly removing the clause of “freedom” in #8.” || It is this inconsistency that often weaken some of the arguments of the anti-tithing position.
Not convincing – Russell Kelly is an anti-tither whose misplaced arguments are often repeated ad infinitum; yet, he’s not merely after a command but rather after anything that spells “10%”.
I wasn’t straddling any fences. So many times have I made my position clear enough:
1. In the matrix of 2 Cor. 9:7, anyone is free to purpose in their heart what they want to give – whatever that percentage is, and I have no problems with that as long as I’ve not set a benchmark for anyone. It’s their personal choice, and I should respect that.
2. Whether you purpose to give above or below “10%”, whatever you give is still a percentage – and I don’t have any problems with that either.
3. There is NOT A SINGLE TIME that I’ve applauded any side that “requires” ANYTHING from anyone! NOT ONE TIME!! If you want me to remind you, here:
In all these and more, have I anywhere argued for a certain percentage as “REQUIRED”? Is that not the very thing I have been opposed to all through my rejoinders? To be sure, I’m not one of those arguing that the ONLY meaning of “tithe” is “10%” – hence, in saying that I’ve no problem with anyone tithing, I wasn’t getting stuck on “10%”. This is why earlier in my reply [#35], I observed that if some Christians have “purposed in their hearts” to tithe a certain amount (WHATEVER it may be – LESS or MORE than “10%”), they should be allowed to freely do so in the matrix of 2 Cor. 9:7.” Does that sound like I was making a case for what is “REQUIRED”?
Lol, Jared… my position has been consistent all through. Either way, there’s no justification for anyone arguing against anything “required” or “commanded” while imposing their own “NT commandment” on others. As far as I’ve nowhere argued to make ANY type of giving a matter of what is “required”, such an idea cannot be alleged into my rejoinders anywhere.
Please dear friend, don’t be so preposterous. I’ve met so many anti-tithers who do not have a clue about the Law; and when examined, they would very quickly duck under the same excuses you’re conveniently patting yourself with.
Yet, Russell Kelly is an example of an anti-tither who has argued to “determine what to bring over from the OT Law to the Christian faith” – he was not arguing for the “spirit of the Law” as you may have asserted. Since he was harping on “ALL” 613 commandments of the OT Law to harangue others in his debate with them, I made a critical observation to him directly in line with his assertions: “If one of them is untenable, all the other 612 must be treated in precisely the same way.” He quoted that line and said: “THAT IS MY POINT”. (see the blog and my reply: http://www.christianpf.com/obeying-god/comment-page-1/#comment-9603 ).
Another example is an anti-tither who argues that paying tithes could make someone lose their salvation and land them in Hell. Apart from the fallacy of his assertion, he goes on to say, “I have warned you of the danger in observing the law of tithing or ANY OTHER old testament law for that matter.” ( http://tithing.christian-things.com/thelaw.html )
These dear folks who make so much noise about the Law may have never taken the time to digest Romans 3:31.
On my part, I’ve offered in reply #38 that – “I do not necessarily appeal to a literal and legalistic application of every detail of the Law to justify an anti-tithing or a pro-tithing persuasion.” That simply tells it all about my being well aquainted with issues of the “letter and spirit of the Law”.
You’re not the amanuensis or secretary of the Holy Spirit, so please kindly refrain from this arrogant attitude.
There are people who have been moved to tithe even when they were in debt: they obeyed without grumbling, for no one “forced” it upon them – and God honoured their faith in tremendous ways. This does not mean that they restricted their giving to ONLY “10%” or that they didn’t care for the poor, or that they ignored the needs of their households… nor that every tither should be in debt before tithing.
Jared bro, what you want to “force” upon others is your personal misgivings and disaffection towards tithing. There are no anathema for Christians who have purposed in their heart to tithe, for “10%” is not “the ONLY” meaning of that term in Scripture; nor does it stop any tither from caring for the poor or their households. You may haggle on and on about your disenchantment with the tithing issue; but I don’t see how your reactions have made a good case for your persuasions.
Blessings all the same.