Many have asked me, “why tithing”? Of all the things to study and debate, why have I chosen tithing? Right off the bat, I don’t really know why the topic of tithing fires me up so much, so I found 5 good reasons to get fired up about the tithing debate.
The Love of Money is the Root of all Kinds of Evil
I almost said that money is the root of evil. I think I write that because my mind is always on autopilot. Money is not the root of all kinds of evil. The LOVE of money is. Sure, tithing is a good discipline to rid greed from those who are giving, but what about those who are receiving? There are many out there who are extorting God’s word for the gain of money. Many of you think about televangelists, but that’s just a few on TV. There are many more who desire more and more money to build more and more of their kingdom. Sure, many of them think that God gave them this vision to do this or that. Tithing allows them to build their own dreams and mandate others to pay for it. It’s not necessarily that they love money; they love what money can build.
Tithing in the New Testament Church is Against Scripture
Plain and simple and probably the most important factor that inspires my quest against tithing. I’m not going to spout out any scripture to prove tithing wrong. I’ve done plenty of that already in the past. I believe with all of my heart, that tithing is unbiblical. I do not have an ounce of doubt in my heart or mind about it. I wish i could take what i’ve learned and play it in a movie, or write it in a book. Words and pictures will not do justice to what the Spirit of God has enlightened in my heart.
Tithing Extorts the Poor and Excuses the Rich
I’ve seen churches investigate many members to figure out if they are tithing. If a rich man has been tithing, he is let go and forget about. But if a poor man is not tithing, and needs help or assistance in paying his bills, the church will first investigate his finances to see if he tithed. If he did, then they will check his spending records and make sure he isn’t spending too much on other things.
The church will try everything to get out of helping this poor man. They will show how he can spend less here and there, and yet still ask him to pay his tithes. They think no one has an excuse not to tithe. They don’t even realize that in scripture it was the poor who received tithes. What about the rich, why pick on them? They paid their tithes, didn’t they? Is a tithe really what God expects of them or is that what WE are expecting from them? Tithing is unjust and unfair.
Jesus Talked about Money More than any other Subject
Obviously, nothing has more of a hold on people than money does. If Jesus talked about it so much then it must be crucial. I’m not a financial guru. I flunked accounting in high school. But I do know that the flow of money going in and out of the church should be a much-discussed topic. Disagree? Don’t mark my words, look at Jesus’. He talked about it more than sin, heaven, and hell.
Giving statistics stated that religious organizations brought in 103 billion dollars last year. We have done very little with the 103 billion dollars and we complain that we could do more if only more tithed. It is calculated that we spend 85% of what we take in on ourselves. As a matter of fact, only 3% goes towards ministering to the needs of the unsaved. No wonder the world thinks the Church is greedy. It’s not because we are constantly asking for money. it’s because we keep it all to ourselves.
This is besides the point. How the Church receives its funds is important. If tithing is in place then people are not free to give to other places that God is leading them to give. Instead, people are handcuffed to an organization that spends more and more on themselves.
Tithing Challenges me to Study God’s Word
I will admit, I’m not the encourager or exalter in the group. I like to dissect things with my mind and find solutions to fix the problems. If i see a problem I will speak up. I won’t if everything is going right, I just expect it to. I’m very opinionated, and debates really fuel my fire. I love them. Am I contentious? Sometimes, yes. I try to work on that. I don’t like to pick fights for no reason. But I love a good challenge. There is nothing biblically wrong with wanting to debate God’s word. Your motives must be pure, and you have to be extra careful about how your attitude shows Christ.
Everyone has their methods to help them get fired about God. For some, it’s to look for those who need emotional help. Others, it’s to look for those who need some teaching. It’s all different for all of us. We are all wired different ways. I’d like to say that the greatest Christian is the one who is most balanced, but more than likely that Christian doesn’t fit in many places. We are different members with different things that drive our motivation. If we are the hands, then doing things with our hands motivates us. If we are the head, then using our thinking or leadership skills motivates us. We are all driven by different things.
So many People are Believing the Wrong Thing
This just hurts to see the number of people who are believing the wrong thing. I’m on a quest to help as many as I can to see the truth in God’s Word. If there was no one to convince, then I probably wouldn’t get into tithing. But it’s a challenge for me, and there are many who need help and do not know the truth. At one time I didn’t know the truth. You can read about it in my tithing testimony. It is great to hear testimonies from those who have been freed by the teachings of God’s word about tithing. I do not want to diminish the fact of giving sacrificially, but at the same time, people are locked up in chains and need to be freed from the tithing mandate first in order to truly understand sacrificial giving.
freewillgiver says
Jared thankyou soo much. Keep up the work it is winning diciples to Jesus not to Jared. Your post left out that through the study of tithing we can find out what Jesus is telling us to do each day. Tithes is a major block in the Churchianity edifice which can get folks to heaven but once they are there they will have to be introduced to Jesus. My flesh loves Churcianity it externalizes the walk with Jesus. At first I only wanted Churchianity without tithes now I am finding that I want more of Jesus.
I started reading and pondering your blog and posting to challeng tithes. Now after attempting to change the hearts of others on this subject somthing strange is happening to me. The Bible reading and reading other books while sharing with others has informed me that I have to change.
I read Pagan Christianity 90% through but at first I was not interested in the Jesus stuff or seeing a more authentic walk in myself. Now I see how the Temple, Proof texing, tithes order of the Bible Pastors and all that have drammaticly affected my relationships with others and in my family. I always wanted to be a layity or a clergy going to heaven now I want more of Jesus and his purpose. That is not the kind of thing that i am used to saying it goes against my nature. Wow Jared thanyou so much. In heaven or sooner you will meet a Black man who has internalized peices of your heart in your post. We are Brothers.
PS I will not go and start my own housechurch like Joe Housechurch in the book. I will actually wait for the Spirit of Jesus to lead me everyday.
Tony Isaac says
Hi Jared,
I whole-heartedly agree with freewillgiver. I too have noticed that my perception and my heart towards the things of God has changed. I am more appreciative of the grace that got me saved than trying to look good before men by ticking the tithing register every month. I was a bit hesitant to take a stand in my church with regards this issue until God made me realise that I was not honouring him in my actions but more interested in pleasing men. Now I have come under heavy criticism and I am almost tempted to ask if church has become a cult where you are not entitled to have your own opinion but have to believe everything preached without asking questions.
I have actually come to discover that the attitude of today’s church towards this tithing doctrine shows how little they know about God, His grace and His mercies. If people’s commitment to God is judged by how much money they give in church, then the church has completely lost the plot and has descended into the depths of carnality. What a shame! No wonder there is no power in today’s church because sound doctrine is completely non existent just people with itching ears who want to be told what they want to hear, no longer wanting to endure sound doctrine.
I am really encouraged that God is also revealing His mind to others as well and may the good Lord continue to prosper His work in our hands in Jesus name, amen.
freewillgiver says
Tony thanks for the agreement.
This message of anti tithing can make us like the prophets and like Jesus. Along the way we will discover Jesus burning our flesh while we attempt to love the folks who will ridicule our position. I am not a natural listener, it is so difficult for me. I also do not take insults well. But it seems Jesus wants me to be insulted to tear down the parts of me that are not like him.
Tony it seems you have found that the love of Christ in us brings suffering and makes one take hard stands. Please set folks free from tithing with gentleness and respect. It is as difficult for you as it is for me. I once had respect for the organizations. Now my icons are revealed for what they are. Worse yet I am now partially responcible to tell them the truth. Yike’s!!! I can’t take the blue pill anymore. Now I have got to escape the matrix and help others out. But I still have so many Matrix ways in me. Jesus will purge them.
The truth is burdensome because now I know I am responcible. Now it ain’t the churches job, or the pastor’s job, to spread the free gospel it is my job with Christ in me. Sometimes I wish I did not know the truth about tithes. Yes Praise Jesus, I am free, but now I must work to build a network around me of folks who really fellowship. I can’t just be a member of the laity and slip unnoticed in a large congregation, I now have got to walk with Jesus every moment.
In their insults Jesus is challenging us to love deeply and to deeply listen. Loving and listening can’t be surface but connecting will win far more folks to our position. Changing hearts and minds with love is difficult and self denying. People are worth it even the rude ones. That embrace of the suffering as from the hand of Jesus is the walking with Jesus, loving enemies and changing our mind when we are wrong. Job credited God for his suffering. The way of Love has lonely valleys.
I am finding spreading this small truth about tithing is giving me more love for the church. We got to reach them so they can be all they can be in Jesus. We don’t just go to Church, We are the Church, with Christ in us.
Tony Isaac says
Hey bro,
The Lord will give us grace in Jesus name. It is well.
May the good Lord continue to reveal himself to us more and more in Jesus name, Amen
jeremy says
Hi Jared I fully agree and I thank you for taking the up the challenge. my problem is I find it difficult sitting in church and being critisize for not titing. i dont know when I was in church as you feel like a criminal as it is said that you rob God. I studied the scripture but find it hard to find simular believers who share my view mostly unbelievers.
If you can recommend a church in South Africa Cape town I will really appreciate it.
Thanks
jeremy
Marty says
I’m sorry, I don’t know the name of the person who wrote this article but this is for you.
Thank you so much! I knew in my heart of hearts when I first got saved that the sermon about tithing given by my pastor raised a warning flag within me. I just couldn’t bring my self to fully accept the tithing message. Not because I was greedy, it just didn’t make any sense to me.
I thought, “Does God really need my money or does He want me?” It just didn’t set well within my soul for many years. I even tried to tithe a few times and tried to get in the habit. However, I managed to be late on paying bills and had to ask the church for help with finances. It was a big mess.
I have searching the internet for a “non-tithing” church near me and I have had “no luck” (for the lack of a better term) in finding one.
If anyone has any advice or help, please send me a message @ mjswizzle@yahoo.com or at my website blog.
Gwaine says
Hi Marty,
Like you, I’m often interested in the subject of tithing; and perhaps several other readers might benefit from my comments – which is why I’d like to share them online instead of offline by email.
There’s something we all need to grasp: using the wrong excuses to justify any arguments (for or against tithes) is simply unhealthy. Please allow me to point out just two common mistakes people often make:
1. God indeed doesn’t need anyone’s money – and if that has any substance at all, then anyone (including me) who gives money at other times and still uses that excuse as an argument against tithes is simply being a hypocrite. We could all fold our hands and give NOTHING under this same excuse: “Does God need my money?” At the end of the day, let such people not come back hooting that “God loves a cheerful giver”, since He really doesn’t “need” anyone’s money.
2. Giving tithes or any other percentage (below or above 10%) at anytime does not justify “unpaid bills”. If anyone is averse to giving any tithes at all, let them refrain from doing so – but let them not seek to hang their aversion on such excuses as being late at paying their bills. That exculpation is sadly a flimsy one.
The thing we often fail to understand is this: God does not “DEMAND” (or coerce, force, dragoon) anything from His children in this matter. At best, He invites us to participate in this ministry without grudges or excuses (see 2 Cor. 9:7, “not grudgingly, or of necessity”, KJV). If a giver (whether of 5%, 10% 15%, … or even 55% and more) has any reason to grumble about anything in giving, they are better off giving NOTHING while rejoicing to sing the chorus that “God loves a cheerful giver”. Believers should stop hanging their excuses about “unpaid bills” on tithes or anything else.
We are often told that tithing is “wrong”. Why? Often, the tenuous argument for the aversion is that it’s difficult, burdensome, manipulative, UNJUST, UNFAIR, and outright evil; thus they conclude it’s a “false doctrine”. No worries – let such brethren tell God directly to His face that same thing.
But just think about it for a moment: most people who disavow tithing will often tell you they give MORE THAN 10%. While it’s not my style to argue with them about what they give, it seems rather funny that these folks have a problem with what is “less” than what they boast of giving. Simply try this experiement: if “1 out of 10” (ie., 10%) is too difficult, is it “3 or 5 out of 10” (30% or 50%) that is far easier to give? I’m not stuck on 10% (“1 out of 10”); but I often wonder that if anti-tithers are struggling with just this “1”, how can they convince themselves and others about the “liberality” in a boast of giving MORE THAN “1” (eg., “3” or “5” out of 10) and still not struggle with “unpaid bills”? This has nothing to do with whether you are rich or poor – people will ferret anything to argue that this or that is “wrong”, and my opinion is that they should tell that to God directly to His face!
What you give is not responsible for your “unpaid bills” – that is not a healthy excuse to offer against tithing. If you’re comfortable with any giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10’); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10’) – do as you may, afterall you asked the question: “Does God really need my money or does He want me?”? Since He doesn’t “need” anybody’s money, let’s just all fold our hands and give NOTHING while singing that “God loves a cheerful giver”… if one excuse is ‘superb’, another thousand excuses will be equally ‘superb’. But try not making yourself the victim of another person’s untenable excuses.
“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; … And God is able to make all grace abound toward you” [2 Cor. 9:7-8]
Regards.
freewillgiver says
Gwaine
I am trying to digest your post. I will read it again but are you for Christian money tithing or against it? Well I will think about a responce to your post but it was thought prevoking. I will examine my motives. I like your train of thought so I had to respond quickly.
Gwaine says
Well, this may come as a surprise, but I’m neither “for” nor “against” tithing. I think Christians should be allowed the freedom in the principle found in 2 Cor. 9:7, quoted earlier.
There are numerous arguments on either side that many people cherish as strongly supporting their persuasions, whether anti-tithing or pro-tithing – and I appreciate them. However, it so happens many, many times that most anti-tithing arguments I read are simply strained and untenable. What would be more helpful, perhaps, is that discussants try and be honest, thoughtful, and avoid extremes.
Elder Joshua J. Holdstock says
But, Gwaine et al…Do we not all enjoy one of Gods greatest gifts which is that of freedom? Despite the absolutleness of the word “Commandment” God does not command but simply tells us what we need to do here on earth in order for us to enter His kingdom in heaven. Individuals like Marty can search around all they want for a church that conforms to their belief system and the fact of the matter is that they will eventually find that church. Lucifer has started many a church to slowly and sublty draw away the children of God from truth. The key with tithing is understanding that God requires your heart, and yes, as Gwaine pointed out, if you begrudgingly give any amount of money, time, talent, effort etc…You would have done just as well to keep your offering. None-the-less, I have discovered through prayer, fasting, and personal revelation that tithing is a command from God in the sense that He will not force you to pay it other than to withhold the blessings you would have gained from following the Law of the Tithe. You sound honest, sincere and willing to listen to the spirit of the Lord.
If my assessment is not wrong about you, Gwain, I strongly, strongly urge you to follow the council in James “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and abraideth not; and it shall be given him.” The power of the spirit will give you the answer you seek, not me or ‘tithe’ or ‘freewillgiver’ or anyone else.
Good luck and let us know when you get the answer.
James says
Hi, Josua J Holdstock, Please can you tell us which church do you attend ? I always find that people who promote tithing belong to a church that demands its members or even expel their members for not tithing.
Robert George Fox says
“Elder Josua J Holdstock” is Mormon. It takes one to know one. I am still a deacon in the Mormon Church roles but I have not attended in 43 years.
Elder Joshua Holdstock, I rebuke you for misleading this group by not being forthcoming! I adjure you by the lIving God, answer the question! What church are your loyalties to?
Jared Brian says
Gwaine,
Outside of the extreme statements, the cold hard facts are still presented, and ignored.
The arguments for the pro-tithing side are very minimal and watery. They are not numerous, nor are they persuasive. Go ahead and try to find a pro-tithing thesis book. You probably can’t find one over 15 pages.
I’ll tell you why i use emotional testimony and abuse stories as support against tithing. They seem to ignore the factual argument, but it is effective in other ways. There are thousands and thousands of people who believe that the tithe is not required, but have no passion to stand up against it. They know the bible doesn’t command the tithe, but yet they passively allow it as a benchmark. The arguable issue now is not to debate whether or not tithing is un-biblical, but to persuade them how the abuse, and functionality of tithing is destroying people, their relationship with God, and their ability for complete stewardship.
According to you these issues should stay out of the debate, but I’m sorry, they don’t belong out of the debate. I’m not trying to convince others that tithing is not commanded. I’m trying to spark a flame under people to not be passive about the subject.
There is absolutely nothing passive about this subject. These un-passive people, don’t need facts, theology, or dictionary definitions; they need motivation to speak up about what they already believe.
I believe that tithing is an abusive and damaging philosophy. Defending this position goes beyond the facts, and logical dissertations. If i just wanted to argue strictly the cold hard facts, my article would be 3 paragraphs long. and i’d be done with it.
Elder Joshua J. Holdstock says
I’ll title this post, The Philosophies of Man, Mingled with Scripture.
Tithe,
It sounds like you put forth a great deal of effort to further your anti-tithe agenda. I suppose in a sense your fervor is admirable but at it’s heart it is very sinister. Your goal is to decrease giving. You mingle into your arguemnent scriptures that, according to your interpetation, prove your assertion. You mingle into your arguements the morality of giving freely, as even your name declares…all the while having the underlying devilsh motive to get people to stop giving.
You say yourself, “I BELIEVE THAT TITHING IS AN ABUSIVE AN DAMAGING PHILOSOPHY” To whom? the person that loves God so much that they are willing to pledge 10% or more of their time, talants, and/or money to do what they believe He asks of them? I don’t think so for surely God will bless those that seek to do his will. Melchezedik might have a word or two to say about tithing being abusive and damaging.
Is your problem with tithing that only a “little” of the money gets to the needy and the rest snatched up by greedy wolves in sheeps clothing? (Paid Clergy) Well, certainly the fact that some of the money getting to the needy is better than if nobody tithed and no money went to the poor or needy, right?
Oh, that’s right, I’m reminded that there are few, if any, thesis on pro-tithing, and, (chuckle out loud) “You probably can’t find one over 15 pages.”
I would council you ‘Tithe’ or any other reader to this blog, to put aside your thesis, your books, your literature and your logic generated by anyone other than Apostles and Prophets of the Almighty Himself and kneel down in prayer and ask the God in Heaven, with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ to manifest the truth about tithing to you. He WILL answer you in one of two ways,
1)He will refer you to Malichi and impress upon your mind that you must, “Prove me now herewith” for it is by the actual planting of a seed that one reaps the reward of a fruitful harvest.
or
2) You will feel the the fruit of the spirit which is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith. In other words, God will answer you with a calming peaceful, loving feeling that what you pray for is right, if not you will have a stupor of thought.
When one turns to logic, intelect, and scriptural proof of a Godly principle, one is building his foundation on sandy shores and opens himself up to be deceived by men mingling their phylosophies with Godly truth.
Seek for personal revelation from God and there will be your answer.
Gwaine says
Thank you, Jared.
Granted, while extreme statements may not be the concern presently, on either side I deeply resent dishonest and hypocritical statements or ideas used as a bastion for arguing “truth” – and this includes appeals to “tactics” and emotional testimonies against the subject. It is simply risible to point to an anti-tithing “thesis” as if that in itself settles the matter. I haven’t seen proponents of those “thesis” being able to sustain their arguments when I engage them (already cited an example with Russell E. Kelly, Ph.d on another blog).
That there are “thousands and thousands of people” who believe one thing or the other about tithing, does not in itself justify the fallacious arguments often used in opposing tithes. One could as well use that same fallacy to justify an argument that DENIES the deity of Jesus Christ just because there are “thousands and thousands of people” who believe that Jesus is not God (never mind that they know what John 1:1 states). Unfortunately, this is the sort of excuse that most anti-tithers resort to – in their belief that just because they number in the “thousands”, therefore they must be “right” while everyone else who disagrees with them is “wrong”.
What you call ‘cold, hard facts’ are flimsy excuses, not “facts”. Many people could whine, grumble and complain about anything they don’t like – not because the thing in itself is evil, but often simply that their reactions are misplaced. This is true even with other experiences – for instance, if someone has made up their mind to disavow Christ, they would often look for every “thesis” that supports an “anti-Christ” argument. So, we can understand why anything used in arguing against tithing sounds so appealing to anti-tithers; and yet these folks have not demonstrated a good grasp of the subject for their arguments. Example? How do you intelligently and Biblically justify anyone arguing the common and often repeated reaction that people cannot pay their bills because of “tithing”? Let’s just be honest with ourselves as Christians and refrain from this ungodly tactic of “anything-is-a-good-enough-argument-as-long-as-it-is-ANTI-tithing”.
It should be clear to you that I’m not being passive about this subject. When people assert such lines as that they “believe that tithing is an abusive and damaging philosophy”, my response is simple: would you be willing to tell that to God directly to His face? If He knew that it was a ‘damaging philosophy’, it would be like saying He imposed such a “damage” upon His people under the OT, and the Jesus Himself must have sustained that “damage” to the Jews in the NT! Further, people who make such statements are unwittingly impinging on the character of God.
You see, just because anyone believes anything against tithes does not therefore justify their belief that it is “evil, unfair, damaging”, etc. People may have abused tithing (just as they have abused so many other things); but such abuses do not mean we should therefore conclude that tithing in itself is a “damaging” philosophy. What we need to do is engage the abuses directly, not making strained and untenable excuses to mislead people who are in the habit of hanging their grumbling of “unpaid bills” on tithes.
Shalom.
Jared Brian says
The fact that people can’t pay bills, or are scammed by preachers, or go into debt, or get bitter about tithing has never, ever been a basis of my argument why tithing is not commanded. These issues are simply cause and effect arguments. They are not a substitute for scripture. I will never tell you that those issues are cold hard facts that support why tithing is not commanded for the the NT Church.
You are completely taking my words out of context. Tithing is a damaging philosophy under a Church that is supposed to be directed and funded by the Spirit. Tithing was not a damaging philosophy under the OT. The levites were commissioned by the law, and therefore the levites were compensated by the commands of the law as well. In the NT men and women are commissioned by the calling of the Holy Spirit, and therefore their compensation should also come from the same entity. The law has no authority to enforce others to pay for a ministry that the law did not call! The Spirit is the sole authority to call us to fund those that the Spirit has also called to preach. This is a system of checks and balances.
Imagine if U.S. congressmen used the Canadian constitution to regulate their pay? It is impossible, and illegal. The same goes if the old covenant instructs how to pay what the new covenant has commissioned. The Spirit ordains our ministers, and the Spirit is the sole authority to provide others to provide for them. You cannot mingle 2 constitutions together, where one is in charge of ordaining and the other in charge of funding.
I would be willing to talk to God directly about how tithing is damaging the NT Church. I believe it does. I am not impinging on the character of God because i believe that He is disappointed how tithing is leading his people when he sacrificed everything to leave the Holy Spirit to guide us in these issues.
God tore the veil to the holy of holys to restore direct communication and a personal relationship with Him. He also gave us his Spirit as a way of enabling communicating with Him. Tithing was in place because Israel had no communication with God outside of their priest. They needed laws in place that dictated how their religious operations functioned and how they were funded.
We believe God is alive, and yet we give to him as if He isn’t, and can’t speak to us. Tithing was for a people who had no direct communication with God. The veil was in place signifying that they had no access to Him either.
The Israelites couldn’t fathom a God that was living in them, and one that could instruct them on how they could individually give. They had a veil that was between them and God, and yes, tithing was a perfect solution as long as the veil was there.
If Spirit led giving is the perfect solution now, then i believe that other giving practices are damaging compared to it. If there were 2 doors, one with a million, and one with 1 dollar, and you had to choose which one, wouldn’t you want someone to let you know which one had the million? I am a whistle blower for the million dollar door. I believe that Spirit led giving is not only Scripturally relevant, but also practically as well.
Gwaine says
Lol, pardon me, I don’t mean to be crude; but you seem to be committing the same fallacious mistakes with many people who argue against tithing. To be sure, I’m not taking your words out of context, but rather asking you to face up to the implications of your strained arguments. Let’s see a few of those misconceptions.
You didn’t tell me WHY it is a “damaging philosophy”, but merely reacting along the convenient fallacy that appeal to many people who have made up their minds that it is against “the church”.
The Church is not “funded by the Spirit” – rather, it is funded by believers. There’s no gimmick to excuse this fact, unless you want to argue semantics here. Many people draw their anti-tithe arguments from fausse patte (‘false leg’) sentiments. The above in yours is an example. It assumes that the difference between tithing and “Christian giving” is that only the latter is funded and directed (or led, inspired, effected, instituted, etc) by the Holy Spirit. If that is what you’re presenting here, then take a step back and ask yourself if the OT was not directed or inspired by the Holy Spirit? Making convenient statements to argue only one side while ignoring the other side is being polarised.
Under the OT, the Spirit of God directed what the Jews did – He was deeply involved in their lives, although not many Christians see that fact. When you say that “The Spirit ordains our ministers”, you’re making a strained argument as if to largely ignore the fact that it is the same Spirit that ordained ministers in the OT (see Num. 11:16-17, 25-26; Judg. 3:10; 6:34; 1 Sam. 16:13; etc).
My apologies, but you seem to be regurgitating the same retired arguments that I’ve already addressed on this blog (see: https://www.tithing.com/blog/difference-between-spirit-led-freewill-grace-giving/#comment-2501 – Difference between Spirit-led Giving and Tithing). However, if you’re still doubtful about this point, I’d be glad to point you to so many verses that demonstrate that the Holy Spirit directed the lives of the Jews under the OT.
Sorry, another red herring. The new covenant is not like a “constitution”; and the there’s no denying the fact that Christians under the new covenant still appeal to the OT Law for many new covenant practices. Your analogy of the U.S. congressmen and the Canadian constitution has gaping holes. If it is “illegal” to appeal to the OT Law in one case, it is illegal to cut corners and appeal to the same OT Law in so many other instances. This selective reading is one of the issues that anti-tithers have not addressed – they use these strained arguments to force a conclusion against tithes; but the same folks will appeal to the same OT Law to argue against such issues as the place of women in Church and marriage! Yet, none of these folks will remember to make that same extreme assertion that you “cannot mingle 2 constitutions together!!”
However, if you would like to reconsider this issue further, please tell me: is it not the same OT LAW that the apostle Paul used in arguing for “Christian giving” in 1 Cor. 9:8-14? Em, I haven’t yet come across an anti-tither who could deny that fact; but even more interesting, these same folks will never tell you the same thing that “you cannot mingle 2 constitutions together“. So, why the selective reading, double standards and unnecessarily polarised assertions in your assumptions?
Lol, that’s yet another convenient remark that misses the point. You’re arguing here as if what made Israel’s (or anybody’s) communication with God was “tithing”. Please.
Tithing had nothing to do with anyone’s access in communicating with God – it was not established to enhance or hinder communication between God and any man; nor does Scripture teach any such idea that “tithing was a perfect solution” vis-a-vis the veil. I’ve already offered a few pointers to address this issue in the link referred to above, noting that there are many instances where people communicated with God without involving any prophet or priest (please see the relevant link). This is the sort of manufactured ideas people design to argue against tithes, whereas on closer examination they are just plain untenable from a Biblical perpsective.
You’re free to believe whatever you may, and I respect that. However, if it mixes up ideas for the sake of convenience, it won’t hold any substance. And that is what I’ve been trying to point out in my engaging your ideas.
The idea that only the Christian giving is “Spirit-led” is largely misplaced and ignoring the fact that people were led by the Spirit under the OT as well. Further, have you ever considered that some of the verses outlined in the NT epistles for giving were taken directly from the OT Law? Does that shock you? If it does, you really haven’t grasped this subject adequately – and I’d be glad to point them out to you. If it is not shocking to you, then good: you would still need to face up to the dilemma of arguing for “Spirit led giving” as ONLY a matter for Christians.
I’ve often said to my friends and many others: listen to what people say, but never make yourselves the victims of other people’s arguments by repeating their ill-considered arguments and ideas as your own.
Please go back and carefully reconsider this subject and avoid unnecessarily polarised statements that are ill-considered and unbalanced for your persuasions. Where you may be interested, I’d be willing to point out those verses as hinted above.
Regards.
Gwaine says
Hi Jared,
I’ve made some replies to yours above; but for some reason it did not appear. I don’t know if it’s a tech glitch or something.
Regards.
freewillgiver says
Gwaine Thank you for your responce please answer again.
Where is being against a doctrine which forces Christians to give money extreem? I think nuetrality is being on the side of those who demand money. The status quo is extreem. If the U.S. goverment began tricking Christian folks into paying more taxes than they had to I bet you would be enraged. Is it not worse for a church to do a similar thing with the money tithe doctrine. Please consider taking a side because it seems that you are already on one side or another. Are all Christian priest? If they are in the Bible priest paid no tithes. there was never a required money tithe in the Old testement so how can anyone say there is one for Christians? Please tell us the damage that
freewillgiver says
It seems I cut of a post but Guaine how dose anti tithers do as much damage as The tithe teachers who take money. You seem to make a moral equivalancy inbetween the two camps. How can there be a middle ground? Only one side is correct.
Jared Brian says
I just told you it was a damaging philosophy because it’s not what God intended. God didn’t intend for us to pursue tithing, circumcision, or the biblical diet for righteousness. For some reason, i am getting the feeling that you don’t hold the middle ground with tithing. I believe that you are definitely pro-tithing. I do not know why you disguise yourself otherwise.
What’s your point here? Do you think i was telling you that the Holy Spirit literally comes down and puts money in an offering plate? The Holy Spirit instructs individuals into a calling. Whether it be to minister to a bum, or give money.
Woah, Wait! Why are you trying to argue with me about whether the scripture is inspired? Now i definitely now that you are pro-tithing. I hear the verse, "All scriptural is profitable" so often from pro-tithers. As if i think only the New Testament is releveant and only inspired by the Holy Spirit. I want to include 1 extra old testament law on top of the other 600 or so laws that they do not obey either, and i get painted as someone who doesn’t believe the OT is inspired. Oh please! Don’t try to throw that bone at me! You talk about me having polarized arguements?
Are you seriously confused about the differential role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament as compared with the New Testament?
You don’t cease to amaze me. I swear you are a pro-tithing advocate. You know the problem with analogies is that they are not perfect and people will pick them apart, and not see the simple truth in them. Maybe that’s why Jesus used many illustrations to describe the kingdom of heaven, because he couldn’t even describe it perfectly in one illustration.
I don’t understand the energy you use to expose the splinter in the anti-tithing argument over the beam in the pro-tithing argument?
1. The Jews did not tithe until they entered the promised land, but notice how they did give while they were not under the tithing law in Exodus 35.
2. Only those who raised animals or farmed crops tithed. If you had another occupation, you did not tithe a single cent on your occupational income. This exempted, bankers, lawyers, politicians, tax collectors, blacksmiths, carpenters . . . etc, from paying a tithe on their occupational income.
3. Considering that Abraham only tithed on the spoils of war and not from his established wealth means that his gift didn’t even equal 10% of his own possessions. All this on top of the fact that Israel was only required to give around 1% from their increase from the spoils of war? If that doesn’t throw a monkey wrench in the complexity of tithing, then the fact that Abraham didn’t even give 10% should shoot the tithing argument right in the foot.
4. There is only an example and not even a command to tithe that pre-dated Mosaic law.
5. There is no command to tithe in the New Testament, only the command to give sacrificially, freely, liberally, and cheerfully, and provide for needs.
6. The old testament feast that celebrated the birth of the Church on pentecost, the Israelites actually gave a freewill offering( Deut. 16:10). If you want to throw in a NT parralel verse read both Deut. 16:10, and 1 Cor. 16:1 in the King James.
7. The poor did not pay tithes, they received them.
8. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
9. The man who buried his 2 talents and was able to return 100% of what his master gave him, was still considered a bad steward.
10. The command of Jesus in Matthew 23 for the pharisees to tithe was given at the same time Jesus commanded the disciples to obey the pharisees because they sit in Moses’ seat. On top of that, Jesus commends their legalistic meticulousness, and the fact that they still tithed only food products.
11. How can tithers expell the fact that the tithe was food, and only given in the promised land; and yet somehow justify how the percentage should be piggybacked into the NT?
12. Is it possible that tithing can be both a starting point and an eternal principle?
13. Why are offerings all of a sudden a freewill, Spirit led function when specific percentages for offerings were required in the old testament as well?
14. Here are two solutions: Where should our giving begin? Where should our giving end? – Which one should we teach?
15. The tithing rebuke in Malachi was mentioned with a curse, which was first introduced during the Mosaic law.
16. All this on top of the historical fact that Abraham obeyed a babelonian law that required him to pay a tithe of the spoils of war, and another historic fact that shows no record of the early church tithing or commanding the tithe for the first few centuries.
I don’t know if you are simply looking for a NT verse that plainly says, "thou shalt stop tithing", you will not find it just like you won’t find any verse that says to continue tithing or to morph tithing into the way the Church collects and uses it today also.
So you think that paul is reinstituting an Old Testament command to the corinthians "do not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn"? Really? Or do you think Paul is reinstituting a principle? Paul was carrying in the wisdom of the Old Testament law, not the Old Testament law itself. This is why people say follow the Spirit of the law. This is why i personally think that standards in giving are beneficial, integral, and important, but by no means is the tithing law carried into the New Testament. Principles that God wants us to obey are found in the lessons, not in the exercises.
You misunderstand what i said. The gift of the Holy Spirit was the enhancement, the veil was the hinder. The tithe was a law in place for those who didn’t have the enhancement. You can’t find a verse that shows someone with the Spirit while tithing either.
You mean our communication with God follows the same route as those of the Old Testament? Serious? You mean the veil was just some creative scheme that God thought of to scare some people into thinking that they did not have direct access to him?
I could very well be wrong here, but i do believe that the Spirit fell occasionally on individuals for short periods of time. I don’t remember a time when the Spirit fell upon a group of people, or even falling on them for an eternal time. I certainly realize that the Holy Spirit was present in the Old Testament, but not in the unversal and eternal way the Spirit is present today. The Spirit helps you in decisions that the bible has no absolute answer for. I don’t know why i’m even arguing Spirit led giving, because whether or not you believe in tithing, you practice it anyways. You even know that the Israelites didn’t consult the Holy Spirit about their offerings, and yet here we are today, acting like it’s His job today to guide our above and beyond giving as if we couldn’t simply follow suit with how the Israelites gave offerings in the old testament, just like we follow suit with their tithing. If you do find a verse in the Old Testament where the Spirit of God comes upon someone while they were giving, i would really like to see how they gave.
It absolutely doesn’t shock me because i digest the Spirit and the Wisdom of Old covenant commands. Being under the New Covenant, i am not under the letter. If a 10% benchmark doesn’t SCREAM "letter" of the law to you, than i don’t know what other old covenant benchmark will? How can we scream "legalism" and "letter of the law" when it comes to benchmarks for circumcision, feasts, biblical diets, rituals, and not when a benchmark for giving is introduced?
Out of all i have said to you over the past days, i had to at least have had 1 or 2 statements that an open minded man could consider un-polarized and not ill or unbalanced, and i have yet to hear you agree with anything. Whether you think it is a principle or starting point, i don’t know, but you are obviously pro tithing. I believe that your accusation about being polarized, and ill considered is simply your way to win an argument about tithing over me without discussing the issue. Don’t worry, you are not the first to do this. Many people on this issue argue with me about my delivery, my demeanor, my words, my background, my education, my age. They use everything they can to sidetrack the issue away from the facts. They find any way they can to disqualify everything i’ve said so that they do not have to address the real issues about tithing. All you have to do is prove how ill conceited i am, and there you have it, you do not have to lose a tithing argument because you’ve never actually got into it. You are just arguing my delivery, which is ironically ill conceited and a sidetrack from the facts.
Gwaine says
Jared, thank you for replying.
You offered a personal bland statement about tithing being a damaging philosophy – not because you had a good reason to point to from Scripture. That’s why I queried it, and you’ve only managed to repeat the same bland statement.
Second, you’re the one who has often said that your anti-tithing stance is more an appeal to “tactics”, even though I pointed out that appealing to such frivolous gimmicks is ungodly in attempting to establish “truth”.
Third, I pointed you to some misplaced arguments and strained assertions you have made concerning those under the OT, which you have regurgitated here ( https://www.tithing.com/blog/difference-between-spirit-led-freewill-grace-giving/#comment-2501 – Difference between Spirit-led Giving and Tithing).
Fourth, I also made clear that tithing had nothing to do with anyone’s access in communication with God – which by extention was not argued in Scripture as a matter of making anyone “righteous”. These misplaced and decorative drollery do not add one dot to strengthen your anti-tithing arguments; and that’s why I take care to outline the real issues involved and bleach the fallacies from the facts.
It’s no use trying to accuse me one way or another just because I don’t agree with your strained arguments – you would only be confirming what I’ve often said, that anti-tithers often assume that anyone who does not agree with them is necessarily wrong while they “MUST” be right. I’ve openly stated my stance publicly: I’m neither for nor against tithing, because often is the case that people on either side resort to otiose and tenuous assertions and gimmicks to force a conclusion rather than an honest appraisal of the subject, which they have not been able to sustain when closely examined. In due course, I shall share with you why I’m neither neutral nor passive about this subject.
I wondered what point you had intended in making such a non-issue about the Spirit funding the church. We all know that believers in both the OT and NT fund themselves as led by the Holy Spirit; so trying to device a quip to plaster your own idea against tithe was a non-starter.
It’s obvious I’m not, so if you’ve got something more cogent to say, please do. I offered genially that if you’re in doubt, I would be glad to point you to the Bible and show you the case I made; an example being the other link where you wrongly asserted that Abraham et al did not have any communication with God EXCEPT through a priest! That was an obvious fallacy that needed to be corrected since I see it is the very same thing that is repeated ad infinitum as an excuse for misrepresenting this subject.
Even so, you only managed to rehash Russell E. Kelly’s retired arguments against tithing, and I could take them point by point (including his 140 questions), here or anywhere else you may invite me to do so. Rather, than litter your blog with endless arguments, let me offer you a concise answer to the number of points you rehashed:
This is an illustrous example of how controverted the anti-tithes argument is. Like I said, a rehash from Russell doesn’t help here – he tried to argue that Christian giving should not be by “any commandment”, and here you unwittingly sang his contradiction by making NT giving a “command” – directly removing the clause of “freedom” in #8. However, this leads me to #16, viz:
Abraham did NOT obey a Babylonian “LAW”, for he was not “REQUIRED” to tithe by any “LAW” to the Babylonians. This idea about the Babylonian interpretation is a convenient glib conjured by people who have refused to see plainly what Scripture teaches, for it first argues that Melchizedek was a pagan priest who did not know or worship the same God as Abraham did. If that were the case, besides the numerous questions you have to answer, the implications would be that Abraham tithed to a pagan priest who did not know nor worship the same God as Abraham, and then God established His own Son as High priest after the order of that Babylonian pagan priest!
It would do you a world of good to read what Scripture teaches rather than rehash such voodoo imaginations from people like Russell. Melchizedek was the priest of the most high God (Gen. 14:18 and Heb. 7:1). That it is the same “most high God” that was known and worshipped by the Jews is evident in such verses as Psalm 78:55-56; Daniel 5:18; etc. It’s probably because you guys have preferred Russell’s arguments to plain Scripture that is why you schlepp on this unintelligent idea to make Abraham’s tithes a matter of what was “REQUIRED” by Babylonian “LAW”.
Incidentally, I’ve addressed this same misplaced inference in another blog that a friend referred me to; (http://newborndude.blog.friendster.com/2008/10/melchizedek-was-he-a-pagan-gentile/#comment-260).
Gwaine says
Lol. Please read my statements as simply as they appear. I did not make the inference that Paul was “reinstituting” anything from the Law, but rather that he argued for Christian giving from the same Law that anti-tithers have a habit of mishandling. I’ve made this point clear when I engaged Russell in another blog about the unhealthy attitude of being too strained on this matter; and it was your quip that “you cannot mingle 2 constitutions together“ that I addressed.
Jared, I didn’t mean to misunderstand you; but you’re often regurgitating the same redundant argument already addressed. Tithes had nothing to do with anyone’s access in communication with God – I’ve already addressed this point several times with lucid examples from Scripture to the effect to correct your misrepresentation of those whom you argued as being without the Spirit and having no communication with God except through a priest (see: https://www.tithing.com/blog/difference-between-spirit-led-freewill-grace-giving/#comment-2501 – Difference between Spirit-led Giving and Tithing). I’ve repeated this same thing SEVERAL times to you, and you just keep force-reading your mistake each time. Lol, please tell me, how many more times would you like to repeat that fallacy?
If you’re going to keep using this fausse patte sentiments to argue your flawed position, I could well bear with you. However, tithes was not what provided access for anyone to communicate with God – there’s not a single verse that teaches that fallacy you’re projecting in Scripture. You seem to be sounding like no one under the OT had any communication with God without the tithes – which seemed to be the “solution” you had inferred. Please point this out from Scripture rather than just vacantly assert it by rote.
Honestly, was that what I stated?
No worries – as to a “group of people”, please remind yourself by reading Numbers 11:25, which I have repeated several times.
No problem – but please let me know where Scripture ever shows anywhere (OT and NT) that the Spirit of God came upon anyone WHILE they were giving. If giving anything is what effected the coming of the Spirit upon anyone, please point me to such a verse, and then we can take it from there. It doesn’t matter what you choose to make of me, as I’ve never been shy of declaring my views in this matter.
I didn’t ask about the “letter” of the Law. Rather, my question was so simple. Your overreaction is indicative that you can’t hold your own ground – and it only confirms my anticipation that you would react that way. I haven’t asked for a benchmark of anything – you can’t therefore allege that into my rejoinder. This was why I challenged Marty earlier with a simple experiment and stated clearly: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?)”. If you have made up your mind to misread comments, it won’t come as a surprise that you’re reading a “benchmark” into my rejoinders where I pointed to NONE!!
Please stop whinging. I’m least bothered about what anyone thinks about me, and I could shout it a thousand times and they won’t believe. That’s okay, but your allegations are not true. I do not have to agree with your false assertions if they’re misplaced – and where I find them, I have shared my points and discussed them with clear pointers from Scripture (example: https://www.tithing.com/blog/difference-between-spirit-led-freewill-grace-giving/#comment-2501 – Difference between Spirit-led Giving and Tithing). Nor do I expect anyone to swallow everything I argue hook line and sinker without carefully checking them out. It is for this reason that I often urge amicably that we should not make ourselves into the victims of other people’s arguments (and by extension, I would expect anyone to please check and re-check what I discuss from Scripture). If one does not agree with me, why should I necessarily think that he/she MUST be an anti-tither by default?
I’m not here to play “tactics” in order to win an argument – any argument – over you or anyone else. Whether or not you disagree is not a problem. If there’s something you would like us to discuss, please share – but where you make assertions you can’t defend from Scripture and expect me to applaud you, it would be a disservice to your blog indeed, and a risible adventure for anyone who takes that approach. When you offered my in another thread how to discuss this issue, I gave at least 3 outlines that may be helpful, and indicated that I was also open to dialogue. It’s funny how people just ignore what is said and quickly run on to make flawed allegations while expecting an applause.
I don’t belong to that list, as surely as I’ve not argued your age, background, etc. Nor am I interested in disqualifying “everything” you’ve said; yet you can’t argue that I’ve side-tracked from what you presented, and that is what I’ve focused on instead of arguing away from your premise into something else.
I’m sorry if you see yourself as “conceited” – that has never been inferred in my rejoinders. The “facts” you long for have been offered, which is what I have addressed and quoted the links several times and also pointed out a few of the areas where I thought were “fausse patte” sentiments that had nothing to do with people’s access in communication with God – nor have you pointed me to any verse that stated that those assertions were carried.
On the whole, I keep my fingers crossed that we would all learn to not be polarised on either side. It’s of little interest to me whatever anyone thinks of themselves; but I don’t hold people pejoratively when I discuss with them.
Regards.
Marty says
(Note: this was an event that occured about 5 years ago)
Gwaine,
I wasn’t making an excuse to not pay tithes. I was merely saying that at the church I used to attend, they preached heavily on tithing. I had just gotten saved and baptized a few months prior and was ready to grow in my faith.
After some great and convicting sermons, I started to tithe.
After a few weeks of faithfully tithing, I got behind on our mortgage, car note, electricity bills, etc. and yet, I continued to tithe ten percent.
On one Sunday morning, a check we wrote for tithing bounced at the bank and was returned for insufficient funds.
The next Sunday morning, my wife and I were called into the pastors office and were confronted with the bounced check.
We told them that we wrote their check first and that we wanted to tithe by faith. However, we had some bills to pay that we were behind on and those things must have come out of the bank account before the church check was sent through.
Our pastor told us, “You can’t give what you don’t have.” I thought, “That’s not what he was preaching in all those tithing sermons.”
He was preaching that if I didn’t tithe, then I’m robbing God of what’s His.
He was preaching that if I didn’t tithe ten percent, then ninety percent was cursed.
In other words, he was a hypocrite!
Don’t get me wrong, I desire to give to those in need. I have given to the poor when I have food, clothes or money with me. I give according to what God has blessed with and I give out of love for Jesus. As a matter of fact, Jesus said when you give to the poor brethren, you give to Him.
I want to give to to the church but I really don’t know where that money is going. Am I just paying for the pastor’s luncheon with a few other church members or its it going to the poor, hungry, naked and in prison?
I prefer to give to those who are poor as Jesus instructed, in secret. I don’t need to hold my hand up in church to get an envelope so I can write a check and put my name on it and make sure that everyone sees me putting it in the plate as it passes down the isle.
I don’t need to hold my tithe up in the air above my head and say a prayer in hopes that God will bless me a hundred-fold in return for my generous tithe.
God wants me to give but with the right heart. There is a difference between tithing and giving. Tithing is done under the Law is by command. Giving is done by love for Jesus and with the heart. God wants me to be a cheerful giver and without condemnation, pressure or guilt.
Jesus said, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith (NKJV).”
Jesus said that there are more important things than tithing.
1. Justice
2. Mercy
3. Faith
Do you have those attributes? Have you mastered them yet? If not, maybe we should work on those and take control over them before we start worrying about the tithe.
Of course, Jesus was talking to those who were under the Law and if you are under the law, then you should tithe.
However, as Gentile Christians we are not under the Law, but under the Law of Grace. By obeying Jesus’ commands of loving God first and loving our neighbors as we love ourselves, we have fulfilled all the Law and the Prophets of the Old Testament.
Blessings,
Marty