Rick Warren Tithing Errors Again

Rick Warren Tithing Errors Again

Rick Warren, Saddleback ChurchRick Warren is at it again, spewing out more lies about your requirement to give and tithe to the church organization. He just posted a new article on Feb 18. You can read it here. Just going to get right into it and evaluate some of his statements

This is the principle of tithing: You give the first 10 percent of your income back to God.

Yep, we all know that Israel never gave the tithe first. The first fruit offering was given prior to the tithe harvest. First fruits and tithing were not synonymous. First fruits were blemish free and the best of the crop. God specifically says that they were not to choose their tithe based on how bad or good it was. They were to set the 10th aside. That’s right, they were not even to set the 1st aside. Just the 10th.

Where should you tithe? Do you tithe to United Way? Or do you tithe to your brother who’s been out of work for three years? No. That’s charity. Tithing is an act of worship. It goes to God.

Did he really just say that giving to your brother who is out of work does not worship God? Does Mark 9:41 come to mind to anyone?

Malachi 3:10 says, “‘Bring to the storehouse a full tenth of what you earn (NCV)

What bible is he reading out of? One that fits his own theology, that’s what. Israel didn’t give a 10th of what they earn. They gave a tenth of the increase that GOD gave them. I can’t emphasize that it was what “GOD” gave them. it wasn’t what they earned. Please read my post that explains why Israel only gave food. Rick Warren just wants to you to forget that Israel only gave a tenth of food and animals. Carpenters, bankers, doctors, lawyers, tax collectors didn’t give a single coin for a tithe. They kept ALL that they earned and were not allowed to give it as a tithe at all. This interpretation is blatantly adding to the scripture to fit his own beliefs.

When are you supposed to tithe? You do it on the day you worship. The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 16:2, “On every Lord’s Day each of you should put aside something from what you have earned during the week, and use it for this offering.

Not only are we requiring you to give a minimum. Not only are we requiring that it has to go to a 501(c)(3). But now you are required to give it on the first day of the week. Of course this is the day of worship, since you don’t worship God on the other 6 days of the week.
If you give 9% – Bad. If you give it to the needy –Bad. If you give it on a Monday – Bad.

Rick Warren’s scriptural abuse

I’m not the type to just go out and say an individual is blasphemous and is in danger of adding to God’s word, but Rick Warren did just that. I’m not against the various biblical translations, but let’s be real, but the New Century Version (NCV) doesn’t even come close to representing any original text. I get it. All the translations have errors, but it just blows my mind when these so-called followers of Christ scour these loosely written interpretations for quotes that fit best with their message.

There are basic elementary principles that a man who claims to be a follower of God’s word should know if they are going to preach about this topic:

  • Malachi 3:10 doesn’t state ‘give a full tenth of what you earn’
  • Proverbs 3:9-10 is not in reference to tithing
  • Israel didn’t give a tithe from anything but their crop and animal increase
  • Tithing was not ‘first’

Since he can’t even get the easy facts straight in this case, he should disqualify him for getting in front of a pulpit to speak about tithing E V E R. It doesn’t take much research, nor does it take a Ph. D., nor are these simple facts even controversial; and yet, he abuses and rapes bible passages to make his point.

Jared Brian is the author of www.tithing.com. There are over 300 articles written on research and reviews about tithing information.

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96 comments on “Rick Warren Tithing Errors Again
  1. John says:

    “Let this thought be put to rest that Abraham gave a tenth. No, he never did. He gave the tenth as Abram, but never has it been recorded that Abraham gave a tenth again.”

    Have you ever tried to ask yourself if your opinion is biblically supported?
    you are actually assuming things and to straighten your short knowledge of this “one time tithe and no more” i bet you should read more of this tithe after Jacob or Isaac offered their tenth to God for a complete debunk of this “one time tenth” myth.

    Yes, you read that he tithed once but it won’t necessarily mean that this one time tithe reflected his whole 99 years of age.

    Moses didn’t need to write in full detail of his full years in service. for your information giving tithe is to pay of what is due to God.
    just look at the statement of Paul once again for a clearer view of this Abraham’s tithe in Heb 7:6.

    [This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.]

    Yes, Melchizedek collected his tenth!
    it’s not a voluntary tithe as some may have assumed of. but a compulsory method of collection. that’s what Paul had said when he viewed Moses’ writings.

    Now if this tithe of the Jews didn’t mean anything to the Christian era then i would like you to read again Paul’s statement the origin of their tithe in Heb 7:9.

    [ One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham,]

    how plain! he explained that the tithing of the Jews in Moses time was based on Abraham’s tithing practices and therefore a reflection of his tithing method.

    if Abraham could have tithed once then rest assured that these Israelites must do likewise.

    Yet they tithed MANY TIMES! How shocking to know this truth of Abraham!

  2. Leonard Bupanda says:

    Brother John, your language amazes me. I know that there are many people following this discourse and many are wondering why you have only one scripture to cling to in the whole New Testament. I wonder what you would do and be without Hebrews 7. You call mine assumptions and keep yours as legitimate and real. Well, I am not surprised at your ability to read the things that are not in the scripture. That what we call assumptions. We want to emulateAbraham in minor things and not in the great things that God approved of him.

    Who has bewitched you. I have told you that this discussion will not help you or me. It is degreasing and for that reason, I retire with my emptiness. Now I know why the law keepers got rid of the Lord and all those who believed in Him. You have failed to answer even one of my questions, not even one. My last word to you is Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, purely by the grace of God. Not by blinding hanging on the shadows. Christ is the substance. Everything else is just empty religion. I pray that you will see the light some day

    May the grace of God our Father be revealed to you and the many people you are blindly leading astray. God bless and bye.

    • John says:

      “I wonder what you would do and be without Hebrews 7”

      i see your point and i sense that you’re the kind of man who accepted one part of the bible and rejected the others. don’t u know that Hebrew 7:8 is also a part of the bible? it’s actually a stone that became a stumbling block. all of your arguments are defeated by this little thing called stone (Heb 7:8)

  3. John says:

    Sorry, Leo!
    you need to study more of this subject even deeper than that. it’s terrible that you lost your argument over this tithe of Melchizedek in Heb 7:8.

    now if you have time please answer these questions.

    1. which of them was more precious to God in Malachi,

    tithe or life?

    2. do you accept Jesus as our Melchizedek in Hebrew 7:8?

    please…

  4. Leonard Bupanda says:

    If you think giving as the Spirit prompts in the New Testament, it is up to you. When you talk of life, is it a small thing that Ananias and Sapphira died because lying to God and the Holy Spirit, please think again. Please, understand that Jesus Christ is far greater than Melchisedec. Is His love with the tenth? I cannot emphasise any more the Lordship of Christ. You go on with your tithe, I would rather have Jesus than embrace the Christless tenth. For me to live is Christ and to die is gain. If you are afraid of death, how long do you have to go before the Lord calls you?

    Actually I am no longer interested in continuing in fruitless arguments when there are better things to do.

    Thanks

  5. Leonard Bupanda says:

    I meant, if you think giving as the Holy Spirit prompts in the New Testament is a small matter, it is up to you. Moreover The Lord Jesus Christ does not even need you small tenth. He does not. Thats why he gives us in Matt. 25:31-41 the list of those who can receive on His behalf. Not the people we give too.

    Again, let me dismiss the myth that the kingdom of God should depend on mine and your pocket to progress. Who said so. It will progress with or without you and me contributing. He is far richer than the begging pastors want to present Him. So please, let this headless, fruitless time wasting argument come to an end.

    God bless you.

  6. John says:

    “let me dismiss the myth that the kingdom of God should depend on mine and your pocket to progress.”

    your response surprises me Leo,… as always. after i’d so many times been posting my questions here on this forum, again i received nothing. you don’t have to fear of this. it was actually a test of faith to let the people know who could bring sound doctrine on this forum.

    yes, it had been an empty debate because you’d always been dodging me for so many times.

    for sure no one in this forum can give so much money as big as this hundred percent of his income to the charity the way this biblical widow cast her last money to the needy. she was actually married to helping people out of this good example and I’m sure you don’t know anyone in your relatives who could perform the way this widow did for herself or anyone here, right Leo?

    well suppose God would want all of your income for his tithe, how would you react to God towards his law? or if you’re earning 50,000 dollar a month how would you slice them and offer it as first fruit from your income?

    it certainly will make a big deal whether your dividend is acceptable or not?
    that’s why to prevent this confusion from happening, God devised this tenth as a boundary for people who were in doubt of their righteousness.

    read Ps 50:10-12
    “.If I were hungry I would not tell you,
    for the world is mine, and all that is in it.”

    yes, everything on earth belongs to God in any respect and that includes your savings. since God knew your needs, he required only his tenth for the needy and that tenth when offered is holy to him or even the holiest tithe according to Numbers 18:28-29.

    ” In this way you also will present an offering to the LORD from all the tithes you receive from the Israelites. From these tithes you must give the LORD’s portion to Aaron the priest. You must present as the LORD’s portion the best and holiest part of everything given to you.”

    so far i found nothing in the bible that may seem comparable to its holiness as holiest as this tithe of God. can you mention one for me in the new testament?

    in fact Paul’s version of giving when it is based on faith will never nullify the law of God such as what he mentioned in Roms 3:31.

    “Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.”

    so what things then will make your version of giving higher than the tithe of God?

    actually, your version is biblically unsupported!

    Now you’re saying that Jesus was higher than Melchizedek. how did you manage to compare the two?

    please feel free to read what was in the Heb 7:17
    “Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever”

    nothing that said Jesus was higher than Melchizedek.

    now if the son of God could have been that higher than you were expected of what he had been, then why would he choose to be a priest of God in the order of Melchizedek? why Leo, is there something that prevented you from answering me?

    here again my question that needed your attention,

    why would God prescribe death on those breakers in Malachi account if the law of tithe could be ignored in the later times?

    Is life more precious than anything else according to Jesus in Mathew 6:25?

    would this mean that God’s tithe was higher than one’s life?

    Think about this thing, Friend!

  7. Andrea says:

    Thank you Leonard. Well argued. I agree with you. Jesus came to free us from our sins. He came to free us from oppression. He came to free us from having to perform to be right with God. He blesses us because we have faith in what He accomplished on the cross. What a wonderful gift. Religious thinking is that we must do such and such (e.g. tithe) to be right with God rather than just have faith. When someone says the answer is Jesus plus something else, that is wrong thinking/believing. Jesus is the answer. Would Jesus really want to save us from our sins, then want us to be burdened by having to tithe (a legalism)? When will people wake up to the lie that we have to tithe to be obedient to God? When will pastors who peddle this teaching have faith that God will provide the funds needed for salaries, church expenses etc, met by the free-will giving of the congregation/others. They may not have their jet-set lifestyles and the church carpet may not be replaced for a while but these can go/wait! Some pastors must lack faith and obviously have little conscience to rely on and twist Old Testament practices for financial provision – over and over again (or else they are deceived/ignorant). If there’s still anyone unclear about whether tithing is required as a believer today, then ask why some pastors don’t emphasise any other aspect of life practised in the Old Testament. However, if anyone wants to freely give ten percent of their salary – without pressure from anyone else, and not because they think it’s necessary, according to what they have, then that is good. Let us give an amount/percentage according to the Holy Spirit’s leading and help other believers in all sorts of ways, according to the New Testament teachings.

  8. Tom says:

    @Leonard Bupanda says:
    12/14/15 at 8:48
    Some very good thoughts in this contribution, for instance the example of the Samaritan, who paid for the victim until he was recovered. This is a model of Christian mercy and love. Thanks for posting.

  9. Lenny says:

    Thanks Tom and Andrea and all who have experienced the wonderful grace of God our Father. The folly of practising especially the present tithing is that it does not compare in every aspect to the original tithe which came from a geographically designated land. It went to a designated tribe and on to the priests and the needy, and to a designated or appointed place (Lev. 27:30-34; Num. 18:21; deut.12:614:28;26:12; Ne.10:38; 12:44; 13:12). The tithe came from the land or ground or field. Not from professions (2 Chr. 31:5). The tithe consisted of food (Mal. 3:10). Last of all, it was shared among the designated needy (Deut. 26:12) and those who had no inheritance of their own- the Levites and their priests. It is very disappointing, the pastors, so called, who should understand this better, are the ones in the forefront of corning even the poor who MUST BE PROTECTED. Putting the present day tithe to full test has just helped to expose the deceitfulness of many of the pastors and false teachers. Since when did the tithes change from farm produce (horticultural) to money? Which Scriputure? Since when were pastors, reverends, and apostles added to the list of beneficiaries of the tithe? Do strangers, widows and orphans looked after by today’s tithe? If so, to what extent?

    Let those educated theologians examine these questions and examine their hearts and consciences, if truly they are not false teachers.
    Testing the present day tithe against the original clearly puts today’s tithers in the same category as Cain, who substituted the offering with non-living things, thinking all was well. There are just too many blind religious followers who can open only the pages of the Bible there crafty leaders order them to read. Today’s tithe is fake, and the real one has been replaced by and with CHARITY (LOVE FOR ALL) and not for some. (1 Cor. 13:1-13; 14:1). Why is this difficult to obey?

  10. Keith says:

    Thank you so much for your contributions.

    Christ himself took up an offering of what the people had and distributed it back to them. He did not set a requirement but “what ya got” He did not take up an offering so that He could eat, but so that those without could share and be filled by what others had.

    God abides in man, man is the temple of God. Jesus said that when we give unto the least of the brethren that we give unto Him. That my friend is giving to God. The Church Building consists of believers and is not made with hands, each of us a stone fit in place – Jesus being the cornerstone. The body consists of believers – Jesus being the head.

    The Pharisees could not comprehend with their hearts.

  11. John says:

    The truth about the Lord’s Sabbath

    Let’s admit this, of all the laws that God gave to man only the Sabbath command, considered not acceptable to them as being apart of the Christian doctrine. Because it existed in the time of Moses and so it deemed not necessary for our salvation. But is the Sabbath command not necessary to Christian salvation?

    The word Sabbath in Latin is sabatismo which means rest in the English translation. this rest is not the same as the physical rest that we’d been doing on a daily basis. because God was not a human who could easily get tired and thus entitle him to rest. this kind of rest, of course, can be described as the Lord’s rest or the Lord’s day in reference to the creation times which mean to cease from doing the work.

    [The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.- Isa 40:28 ]

    So it’s quite a logic to ask that if the Lord’s Sabbath or the Lord’s rest is not essential for salvation, why would God have to rest on the 7th day after the creation time?

    Because God created the earth and everything in it which is completed in 6 days, a truth that debunks the 7 days creation.
    he never grew tired as the bible tend to say yet he rested on the 7th, but why? is there a significant role for us humans of his action if it’s deemed not necessary?

    But some might have said that the Sabbath command given to Moses won’t be the same Sabbath that happened in the creation times regardless of what we have found in Moses book about God’s sabbath.

    [For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day-Ex 20:11 ]

    Yes, both statements are correct and the same despite that the 7th day rests in the creation time was not a 24 / day period. Because God’s calendar is governed by a thousand years period of time.

    so base from this calendar we can say a one day to God is a thousand years for man [ 2 Pet 3:8 ] and the 7 days creation can be 7000 years to man. 6000 years allotted for human to live on earth and the coming 1000 years is the Lord’s Sabbath, a 2nd Sabbath from the day of creation.

    we are now reaching the lord’s week end and his Sabbath which is a general period of time, is fast approaching where Satan will be bound in chain [ Rev 20:1 ] as an act of respect on the Lord’s day. Because on that Sabbath day would be a God’s dominion and no humans would ever counteract its existence in that eventful day of the lord. so it would be an essential thing to keep the Sabbath if one should have desired to be saved.

    The Sabbath, therefore, is the day when a kingdom of God will start to rule over the kingdom of man.

    so it’s therefore that if you lost this vital key to salvation then there’s no way for you to inherit God’s kingdom. I am not causing fear to everyone but each of us must spare a time to search again the bible in knowing the truth about the Lord’s Sabbath.

    • Jared Brian says:

      I’ll probably shut the comments sections down if it starts getting majorly off-topic

      • John says:

        Haven’t been sicked of this tithing topic all the time, receiving praises from readers, thanking one another for not doing it, bashing Rick Warren and his tithing practices?

        I bet you haven’t been sleeping soundly every night just because of him, because of Rick Warren.

        Just look at this topic: RICK WARREN TITHING LIES & SCRIPTURE ABUSE AGAIN and you have the pulse to rebuke him and his belief that promotes welfare for the needy. Jealousy is at its best, right?

        But despite all this I still couldn’t find your reason as to why this tithe had to be false in any debatable issues that had been raised against it in order to bring him down and his practices?

        so far none came forward to disprove his claim and sad to say these alleged proofs against him were mostly of political in nature.

        wreaking him is to wreak the people’s heart who still cast their faith on him. is this what you wish for life? bashing the shepherd in order to scatter the sheep ( Jn 10:12 )?

        I guess this is not love. you must be preaching hatred here and that evil emotion is overwhelming. the truth is, the man did not bite anyone to cause to get mad at him. because each of us has its own ways to distinguish the things that are acceptable to anyone and this is where his freedom of choice depended on.

        the only freedom he required for his action is respect.
        So preach whatever truth in your mind without bashing other people’s action.

        For every bash, you made you might be breaking the commandment of love.

        on the other hand, the Sabbath topic was meant for Tanya who raised the issues of old things in the past as what she said. Tithe and the Sabbath are part of the Moses’ old covenant and breaking one of them is breaking them all. that’s what she said accordingly.

        Yet after our long debate, she failed to prove her points to convince me that these laws were done away.

        Let’s do this part: In Mathew 5:17 Jesus said to the people that he did not come to abolish the laws and the prophets but to fulfill them. What to fulfill? The law of course!

        Now if this law that you were trying to assert is a prophetic message for Christ to fulfill then he must be preaching the Christ thing to the people, right?

        But do the people in those times know Jesus that he is the Christ?

        sorry to say none of the crowds that were present knew who Jesus was! Their minds were limited to Jesus as the son of a Carpenter and a cousin of John the Baptist who was consider a prophet.

        if these people were clueless about him, why would Jesus preach the Christ thing to them? it sounded ridiculous if his message was meant for his prophetic fulfillment.

        The only person who knew Jesus as the christ was Peter and NO MORE! (MARK 8:29)

        I advise you to go back to your study room and review all these circumstances that happened in Mathew 5 or ask your ministers about it.

        [I’ll probably shut the comments sections down if it starts getting majorly off-topic]

        sure Jared, whatever works for you.

        • Jared Brian says:

          John,

          Let me help you out. I’ve said this before – Be brief.
          – Your comments are too long to read. This was the first one i’ve read in the past month or two, or maybe three; and i usually read every comment on my own website.
          – You go down so many rabbit trails and go off-topic too often. People can’t address the 5000 subjects lines in each of your comments.
          – Many of your statements just don’t make sense. I’m not sure if English is your second language, or if you’re not using grammar and punctuation correctly. I’m not trying to bash it; i’m trying to let you know that why you are frustrated at other’s responses is because i can’t understand what you are saying.

          These things make you less effective in your persuasion. Maybe that’s why you aren’t getting through to anybody.

          so far none came forward to disprove his claim and sad to say these alleged proofs against him were mostly of political in nature.

          My whole post was to disprove his claim.

          wreaking him is to wreak the people’s heart who still cast their faith on him. is this what you wish for life?

          Yes. This is exactly what i want. We are not to cast our faith on Rick Warren, or on me, or on what this website says.

          So preach whatever truth in your mind without bashing other people’s action.

          I’m bashing his false teaching on tithing. please get this straight.

          For every bash, you made you might be breaking the commandment of love.

          So God can tell the Israelites to kill all the women and children of a nation. He can call the Pharisees vipers. He can burn people and torment them for eternity; and this type of love is acceptable? Yet, i claim Rick Warren’s teachings are false, and this is not love?

          Yet after our long debate, she failed to prove her points to convince me that these laws were done away.

          You need to understand the definition of ‘fulfilled’. It doesn’t mean ‘destroyed’. it means to ‘satisfy’ as in an obligation. If an obligation is satisfied, it doesn’t mean the obligation must be continued and neither does it mean the end product was destroyed. it’s still there, it just has no function for us to continue using any more. A bucket of water that is full to the brim has fulfilled its purpose. I can’t continue to use that bucket to fill more water. I can’t destroy the bucket either because it still needs to hold the old water. So, i must get a ‘New’ bucket and use it for a new purpose Mark 2:22. To recap, ‘fulfill’ does NOT mean ‘continue’. There’s no precedent to tell me otherwise.

          • John says:

            Jared, this title RICK WARREN TITHING LIES & SCRIPTURE ABUSE AGAIN speaks for itself and you need to back it up from the bible whether there’s a reason for you to call his practices abusive.

            so what he did is, he offered his 90 percent of his income to the treasury and from his action I don’t think it’s considered an abusive method of offering in a biblical sense.

            yes, a 90 percent tithing could be the next to “widow’s offering”. although the reverse tithing is not biblical but his initiative makes Warren a humble man to the extent.
            there is no abusive method applied in there but a model of humility for some people to follow.

            well in case if this is false then how sure you can do better than this? can you offer a hundred percent of your income to the masses?

            it would be a silly thing if you did, right Jared? there was no abusive method applied to what he did. it’s just your opinion.

            [ it doesn’t mean the obligation must be continued and neither does it mean the end product was destroyed. it’s still there, it just has no function for us to continue using any more.]

            I sense some illogical combinations of equating this “fulfilling a law” into a bucket of water.

            it neither reconcile to what Paul said that a certain thing without value tends to vanish according to (2Cor5:17) or (Heb8:13).

            now let’s pretend that Jesus fulfilled this law as you have assumed he did and after his resurrection it became a none value yet still in existence, what was the motive of letting a law to exist without function? I’m asking you.

            the matter is, you mistaken Mathew 5:17 to be a kind of prophetic message intended for Christ which is written in Isa 53:5.

            Read this:
            [But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed]

            is this you called a law or a vow?

            would Jesus dare to speak to the people this “Christ thing” that he is about to fulfill this prophetic message intended for a Christ when no one in the audience knew who Jesus was?

            the truth is, They viewed him as the son of a carpenter or a prophet. but none of them viewed him as a Christ.

            so it’s a silly thing to tell the people this “Christ thing”, useless, empty and irreconcilable.

            Read this:
            [“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?]

            I hope this served as an eye opener for all of you who were blinded by some who mixed this truth with lies.

            [ I’m not trying to bash it; I’m trying to let you know that why you are frustrated at other’s responses is because I can’t understand what you are saying.]

            Bashing the things that are not correct yet founded on top of the bible for me that’s allowable and sure there’s no frustration occurred over this action. you are merely opinionating it.

          • John says:

            [So God can tell the Israelites to kill all the women and children of a nation. He can call the Pharisees vipers. He can burn people and torment them for eternity; and this type of love is acceptable? Yet, i claim Rick Warren’s teachings are false, and this is not love?]

            sorry, I don’t get what you’re trying to tell. in fact, I really don’t get of why have you brought up this, killing women, children over this bashing Warren.

            for some time, you need to relax when you’re reading my post.

            [A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle – Prov 18:19]

            this is simple and I’m sure we can meet half way with this question.

            Is a 90 percent tithing of Warren wrong?

            I shall expect your answer tomorrow.

            God bless and may you have peaceful time to answer it.

          • Jared Brian says:

            sorry, I don’t get what you’re trying to tell. in fact, I really don’t get of why have you brought up this, killing women, children over this bashing Warren.

            I can’t bash Warren’s false teaching about giving, yet, you forget to realize that Paul condemned Annanias and Saphira just for lying about their giving. Bashing false teaching is what we’re suppose to do. God has done worse for much less.

            Is a 90 percent tithing of Warren wrong?

            No. it’s not wrong. This is a straw-man argument. Please look up what “Straw man argument” means. I never condemned Warren’s personal giving, just his teaching. So don’t pretend i’m trying to condemn his actions, and then try to make that part of the argument.

            now let’s pretend that Jesus fulfilled this law as you have assumed he did and after his resurrection it became a none value yet still in existence, what was the motive of letting a law to exist without function? I’m asking you.

            Did i say that a full bucket doesn’t have a function? Of course it has a function. It’s still holding water isn’t it, so in that sense it has value.

            the matter is, you mistaken Mathew 5:17 to be a kind of prophetic message intended for Christ which is written in Isa 53:5.

            Read this:
            [But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed]

            is this you called a law or a vow?

            would Jesus dare to speak to the people this “Christ thing” that he is about to fulfill this prophetic message intended for a Christ when no one in the audience knew who Jesus was?

            the truth is, They viewed him as the son of a carpenter or a prophet. but none of them viewed him as a Christ.

            so it’s a silly thing to tell the people this “Christ thing”, useless, empty and irreconcilable.

            Read this:
            [“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?]

            I hope this served as an eye opener for all of you who were blinded by some who mixed this truth with lies.

            [ I’m not trying to bash it; I’m trying to let you know that why you are frustrated at other’s responses is because I can’t understand what you are saying.]

            Bashing the things that are not correct yet founded on top of the bible for me that’s allowable and sure there’s no frustration occurred over this action. you are merely opinionating it.

            I’m not even going to respond to this long diatribe. You are going off-topic and this is why you can’t get anywhere with anybody on here. YOu start talking about “Christ thing” and Being a carpenter’s son, but you do not draw any connections and this is why your persuasion fails. I am trying to understand but i am not connecting the same dots as you. I think you are using some translation service to translate from Arabic to English and it is confusing me.

          • John says:

            [Did I say that a full bucket doesn’t have a function? Of course, it has a function. It’s still holding water isn’t it, so in that sense it has value.]

            Well, a bucket filled with water has a function but not the law. you can’t equate these two to create something positive out of your unrealistic ideas. I don’t even see it as a kind of symbolic form that represents Jesus ‘ example of his righteousness demonstration.
            did you see your fault? you said the law has no function yet your BUCKET filled with WATER you claimed has a FUNCTION.

            so why is that, Jared? you can’t even reconcile these two opposing theories. now I know you don’t possess even a 1 percent IQ over this incoherent presentation.

            go back and learn. review your previous post on me!

          • John says:

            poor guy! it takes for a dumb kid not to notice his mistakes in writing.

            it’s totally absurd!

            a madman doesn’t know how to read his line. there is no IQ in there.

            that example defines Jared. I’m sorry to say he lost himself over this crap.

            his bucket of water has proven empty, confusing and irreconcilable.

            *sob*

          • John says:

            two opposing posts that I will never forget:

            [ You need to understand the definition of ‘fulfilled’. It doesn’t mean ‘destroyed’. it means to ‘satisfy’ as in an obligation. If an obligation is satisfied, it doesn’t mean the obligation must be continued and neither does it mean the end product was destroyed. it’s still THERE, it just HAS NO FUNCTION for us to continue using any more.]

            [ Did i say that a full bucket doesn’t have a function? Of course it has a function. It’s still holding water isn’t it, so in that sense it has value.]

            duh!

          • Jared Brian says:

            You completely ignored the preposition in that senrence. Now i know how you study the bible. You take pieces of whole sentences and fit them to create your own theology. I said, “it has no function For Us To Continue Anymore.” The part you left out is called a preposition and belongs with the whole part of rhe sentence. Its a basic english lesson.

            If i tell you” i dont have the ability to run anymore” do you ignore the preposition and assume that i dont have any abilities.
            Or do you include the preposition and read the sentence as a whole like it should be and realize that object of the.preposition is about running yet i have abilitues still to do other things

          • John says:

            [ “it has no function For Us To Continue Anymore.]

            is this another excuse of yours after i trapped your two opposing theory concerning the law?

            we’re talking about the analogy of what Jesus did and you’re trying to equate it with a bucket of water.

            the bucket has function as you said while your alleged law hasn’t. this is completely irreconcilable,

            I hope you do understand what you’re trying to tell here. kids who read this will only laugh at this.

            yes, this is written in a basic English YET you can’t even form a better analogy.

            sorry, this epic fails again. because a law without function is considered a dead law and a dead law reflects a dead God.

            preposition? duh!

          • Jared Brian says:

            You didn’t trap anyone, and i don’t even know what your point is.

          • John says:

            PS: please Jared, no more excuses!

            just admit that you were (had been) wrong and everything wud be okay.

            with brotherly love, John

          • John says:

            [ You didn’t trap anyone, and I don’t even know what your point is.]

            your two opposing theories I said.

            you said, the law after satisfied is declared none functional opposed to the bucket thing which is still functional.

            kids who read this can easily pick out the mistake of pairing two different objects.

            I’m still wondering whether if you are a physics prof or an engineer that you do not know what you are saying concerning the existence of this dead law.

            anyway, Paul made it plain that anything without value would eventually DISAPPEAR.

            so connect your example to Paul’s principle of laws and don’t be so smart.

            I can prove to you that the tithing law still exists in the four gospels without considering the tithe mentioned in Heb 7:8.

            don’t worry i will post it here if times allow me.

            God bless.

    • John says:

      [You need to understand the definition of ‘fulfilled’. It doesn’t mean ‘destroyed’. it means to ‘satisfy’ as in an obligation. ]

      The Webster dictionary defined fulfill in many forms such as:
      1. accomplish
      2. achieve
      3. execute
      4. carry out or perform

      Mathew 5:17 deals with the spiritual law as it is described in Mathew 5:21 and 32 such as the murder and adultery cases are known examples that came from the law of God and the only possible definition that seemed appropriate to use is perform or obedience.

      Another thing to consider is, the law that makes a righteous man in Mathew 5:20 is also described in Rom 7:12 as the holy and righteous law which is in reference to the ten commandments of God.

      So there’s no way to say that this law is being referred to as the law intended for Christ’s fulfillment at the cavalry. Because no one in those times had the idea of who was Jesus during his sermon on the mount.

      This is a terrible assumption of some theologians who did not consider the whole aspects of Mathew 5 and the consequence they will get.

      Now if we use fulfill to mean [satisfy], it won’t fit either to the whole concept of Mathew 5 which tells that this law is to last up to the end of everything and anyone who teaches otherwise will be punished.

      Would this mean that Jesus must satisfy the law up to the end of times? Certainly, no such dead law seemed to have existed up to this day.

      Just like Jared said that there has to be a law but a kind of dead law, a law without force or usage and that kind of principle only connects to a dead God.

      [By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.]
      I love it!

      Paul made it plain that anything with no value disappeared.
      why can’t Jared follow Paul’s example? this is plain and simple.

      God can’t make a law just to die and let it exists forever. What kind of principle of physics was that?

      This I think can happen only in Mythology, a fairytale story that doesn’t regard the existence of heavenly laws or physics.

      Many of these modern preachers loved to see God only in the pages of their bible. But when someone talked about their experience with God, they just ignore them.

      Now, can we fit this dead law to animal sacrificial law that was replaced by the body of Christ? We don’t see Christians sacrifice animals today.

      This is a clear absence of law and this sacrificial law is gone but not forgotten.

      Although this animal sacrifices would be restored in the future but this won’t mean a sin offering. It’s more on the economic issue than a sin offering.

      So far there’s no such thing as a dead law in a biblical sense. Because for me, a dead law reflects a dead God!

      this bucket of water is checkmate!

      • Jared Brian says:

        merriam webster: (fulfill- to measure up to : satisfy)
        Dictionary.com: (to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):)
        oxford dictionaries: (Satisfy or meet (a requirement or condition))
        Cambridge: (fulfil verb [T] (SATISFY))

        • John says:

          You keep bringing up this one-sided definition of yours to fit for your alien bucket thing.
          do you mean to tell me that those definitions I gave are false?

          yes, even if we consider this “satisfy” it won’t fit at all to what Jesus did in Mathew 5:17.

          the law that he was about to fulfill is not the law intended for the christ.

          remember he was urging the people to follow his example. do you mean to tell me these people are to be crucified too with christ?

          it has something to do with righteousness and righteousness means obedience to the law of God that’s why he urged them to follow him and do the same example.

          matter is none of the people know who is Jesus. that’s the resolve that would straighten out the mistake of your religion.

          please, enough of this foolish bucket thing. it won’t work at all!

          there is no such thing as a dead law existence. this is only your pure opinion.

          • John says:

            The only solution to this problem is try to imagine yourself in that situation instead of reading the bible.

            the situation in Jesus time is different of what we are today.

            read Mathew 16:20 and reconcile those events, ask yourself if there’s really a reason for Jesus to speak this Christ thing to the people.

            [ Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah ]

            you’re checkmate!

  12. Andrea says:

    Hello John, Jared and fellow believers,

    I think Jared’s ‘bucket of water illustration’ is pretty good! John, your grammar and punctuation could be improved, but it’s good that your last post is better than previous posts in this way. Much clearer.

    John, you are free to tithe if you wish to, but tithing is not required for Christians today. Giving is encouraged and we are encouraged to give generously but it is to be according to what you have, and to be given willingly (2 Corinthians Chapter 8). Anyone is free to tithe or given any amount to the church, or to any ministry. Rick Warren is free to give 90% if he wishes. This isn’t wrong at all if he’s giving freely and not with prideful motives, just for show, or for wrong reasons etc.

    As for believers thinking they need to tithe, consider that Jesus came to set the captives free. See Galations 5: 13, For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and sisters. Read Galations a few times. I did, as I was initially confused about tithing, and the whether I needed to be very conscious of the Ten Commandments as a believer. I wondered for some years whether I was supposed to tithe, but I was never convinced because it is at odds with the freedom we have in Christ. Tithing because we think we have to isn’t really compatible with freedom. I also wondered whether we needed to be ‘gazing into’ the Ten Commandments too, as some Christians think. I prayed and asked God to show me the truth. Then, after reading Galations about three times I understood. The law is fulfilled in Christ. Therefore, when we have faith in Christ we are made righteous. In effect, fulfilling the law. As for the Ten Commandments, no-one can keep those, but Christ came with a New Covenant. A better way. The commandments showed people how to live God’s way, though these teachings are covered in the New Testament. For example, regarding the Sabbath, I was amazed when I read Hebrews Chapter 4. It talks about entering God’s rest. In Old Testament times, God’s people had a sabbath/rest day, but through our faith in Jesus we have rest all the time, 24/7. Jesus is our rest. So in this example Jesus fulfilled (and I think expanded) the concept of rest. We can chose to have a rest day on any day of the week to honour God if we wish. We can also chose to still go about our normal business for the whole week if we wish. We aren’t condemned for not resting physically on a specific day.

    I believe that as tithing was what was required of the Israelites, Jesus has replaced that with freedom in giving and generosity (which fulfills and expands the concept of giving).

    What Jared is trying to do is tell you the truth about tithing. You are free to think about what he and others are saying, or you can close your mind. He and others obviously care about what believers are being led to do by some churches, and other Christians. Tithing is a false teaching, if we think it’s necessary for believers today. As I said, anyone can tithe if they freely want to, but if they think it’s God’s standard or they need to do it to be ‘obedient’, that’s incorrect.

    It is sad that many people are thinking that tithing (and/or trying to obey the Ten Commandments) is what is necessary for believers today. Perhaps it’s because they blindly believe what they’re told without reading their bible. And/or they can’t seem to accept their amazing and bountiful freedom through their faith in Jesus alone. Or perhaps they are seeking to be made right with God through their own strength and that makes them feel deserving. They need to read Galations. For example, consider this from Galations 3:10, But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse…

    What Jared is doing is showing love to you, John and fellow believers by getting the truth out there about this erogenous teaching that has the effect of oppressing people. I believe if people tithe because of the pressure/or thinking God requires/demands it, then the effects can be negative for believers. For example, it can:

    Cause financial hardship in low income earners

    Cause seekers who enter a church to think that the church ‘just wants money’ which is a stumbling block to their coming to faith

    Produce spiritual pride

    Think that giving/generosity begins and ends with the tithe

    Compete/overshadow their sense of freedom in Christ

    Cause them to think they are blessed because they tithe, and that anything good that happens to them is because they tithe (we are already blessed immensely from our faith in Christ).

    And there could be other negative effects I haven’t considered.

    Just felt led to write this. God bless you all as we believers are all on a journey of learning and growing in our faith.

    • John says:

      [ I never condemned Warren’s personal giving, just his teaching. So don’t pretend i’m trying to condemn his actions, and then try to make that part of the argument. ]

      Jared, tithing is scriptural. but the sad thing is you’re ignoring what Paul said in Heb 7:8.
      I’m not going to repeat this all over again.

      [Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.]

      *sob*

    • John says:

      sorry, wrong location.

    • John says:

      [ but tithing is not required for Christians today ]

      Andrea, the entire scripture doesn’t’ share with your opinion. maybe somebody told you that the tithing law was done away when in fact it wasn’t.

      Let’s read this part:
      [ Hebrews 7:8- In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.]

      Paul expressed in Hebrews book that in previous times the Levite priests who were mortals handled the Lord’s tithe, but they became corrupt as it was recorded in Mal3,

      this time, under the new testament ruling the tithing law has been transferred to Melchizedek the priest which was assumed by Jesus Christ. because God wants an immortal priest to manage his tithing law.

      Chapter 7 of Hebrew explained that Melchizedek became our high priest to God and from that point the Church leaders would receive the tithe of the people as instructed by Jesus. ( Jn 21:15)

      the tithing is the only law that has a promise. it’s a test command in case you failed to read Mal3.

      [Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.]

      since the law is a tribute to God’s kingdom, Jesus teaches the people the right way that in order to pay his tithe one must seek first the kingdom.

      [But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.]

      the last sentence is connected to Mal 3 where it stated the promise of abundance, once the tithe is paid.

      seeking his kingdom is to seek Jesus and learn the proper way of tithing which is written in Mathew 23:23

      Let’s read this part:
      [You should have practiced the latter (justice, mercy and faithfulness), without neglecting the former.( tenth )]

      did you see how these words of God are interconnected?

      Yet these ministers of Satan keep claiming that the tithing law was done away but no proof found to support this fable.

    • John says:

      [ As for believers thinking they need to tithe, consider that Jesus came to set the captives free. See Galations 5: 13, For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and sisters. Read Galations a few times. I did, as I was initially confused about tithing, and the whether I needed to be very conscious of the Ten Commandments as a believer.]

      Andrea, are you trying to tell me that the tithing law is burdensome?

      The tithing came from God and if the law was burdensome, do you mean to tell me that God caused this misery?

      you must remember that Israels were once slaves in Egypt and God sent Moses to liberate them ONLY to become slaves again by this tithing law?
      sorry, i don’t see any level of IQ in there.

      please read your bible thoroughly and prayerfully. you’d been misled by somebody else who disguised as a messenger of God.

  13. Andrea says:

    Whoops, my spelling was in Paragraph 7 is wrong. It should be ‘erroneous’ (meaning incorrect) teaching not ‘erogenous’ (a totally off topic meaning)!

    And to clarify when in Paragraph 3, I said, Therefore, when we have faith in Christ we are made righteous. ‘In effect, fulfilling the law’. Better explanation for that sentence is that we satisfy the requirements of the law (through our faith in Christ).

    Consider the verse from Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” This shows that we are given knowledge of what’s right and wrong in our minds, our conscience.

  14. Andrea says:

    http://www.bereanpublishers.com/which-law-does-the-christian-obey/#_Toc532380243

    This is a great website. Check out the sections Change of Priesthood and Change of Law. Take your time in reading it. This website explains things much better than I can.

    (John, You’ve made several insulting/sarcastic comments to others who don’t agree with you. These need to stop. It’s wonderful we have this blog where we can discuss things and learn more. Let’s all appreciate this resource and communicate respectfully).

    God bless.

    • John says:

      i’m not going to answer you anymore, Andrea.
      it’s all there for you to read them.

      if you want to restrict me because of this sarcastic comment or insulting words you better restrict Jesus first for his insulting other people’s right too.

      farewell and goodbye!

  15. stevec says:

    Rick Warren admitted he was a member of the Council of Foreign Relations and Oxford Analytica (see his conversation with World Net daily editor), pagan, “New World Order” organs, and if they are not pagan their ethos is luciferian. I don’t know why anyone would listen to him. He’s highly promoted by the MSM like the war monger and Mason Billy Graham. Friendship with the world is enmity with God, yet both Graham and Warren are ‘world’ favorites. Given his record of distorting the Gospel, I wonder why anyone would listen to him?

  16. John says:

    [I think Jared’s ‘bucket of water illustration’ is pretty good!]

    in fairness to Andrea. I felt sorry for the post I sent her. it’s just that I can’t afford to hit two birds with one stone at a time. But this is a perfect time to discuss everything that has something to do with the tithing law. also, I want to tell Jared that his “fulfillment to mean satisfy” can be counted as correct but on per incident basis only, certainly not for this bucket thing he claimed.

    it can be used to this example of Jesus in Mathew 23:23 that in order to perform this tithing law, it must be accompanied by justice, mercy, and faithfulness. he stressed that this law is not complete without the element of the spirit.

    remember these three items are in fact elements of the spirit according to Paul in Galatians book. so based on that statement, “satisfy or complete” is much preferred to be used.

    but the truth of this, he never said this thing must be stopped.

    Where can we find now this Jesus’ version of tithing law in the four gospels?

    Let’s bring this up from Mathew 22:21 that says, give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.

    remember this, anything that concerns of due payment to God is referred to the tithing law. Because this is only the financial duty that was implemented since the earliest time before Jesus was born and that statement he gave to the Jews is how to treat God with respect through his tithing.

    Now this is how we analyze this statement. if Caesar is to be respected through this payment of tax as a duty of each citizen, how much more this respect will go to God through his tithe. Because tax belongs to Caesar and likewise tithe to God.

    therefore, tithes and taxes are dues intended for each government. if Caesar is ruling over his Roman government then expect God is ruling over God’s kingdom.
    if the tax is a tribute to Caesar’s government then the tithe is a tribute to God’s kingdom.

    this how we reconcile the two same figures, plain and simple in order to understand Jesus’ words yet these modern preachers failed to see this example.

    We know that the tithing has blessings once performed as it is written in Malachi 3 and in Luke 6:38.
    remember the “act of giving” in Jewish terminology means tithing and offering being accepted as traditions or otherwise Jesus would have explained this new law to the Jews.
    so the above statement is proven correct that he was talking about the God’s Kingdom and his tithing law.

    Let’s prove this another statement of Jesus about his kingdom in Mathew 6:33.

    [But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.]

    always keep in mind that the people around him viewed him as a teacher and not a Christ who would save them all from sins.
    the last statement; “and all these things shall be added” has a similarity to the blessings written in Malachi 3 and in Luke 6:33 which is stated in reference to the tithing law as means to honor God’s kingdom.

    the first statement; “Seek you first the kingdom” is to seek first the person who was preaching the gospel of God’s kingdom. it would be illogical if we literalize his statement away from the intended meaning, right?

    because most of Jesus’ words are hidden from the public or well coded and it takes a wisdom to decrypt every word he said.

    so seeking Jesus first is seeking his teachings and one of his teachings is found in Mathew 23:23 that stated, You should have practiced the latter (,justice, mercy and faithfulness) without neglecting the former (Tenth or tithe).

    so you’re saying that the tithing law is no longer a binding law, that’s actually false.
    tithing was actually being taught and introduced under Jesus new version of obedience.

  17. Andrea says:

    To answer John’s question, I believe for most people, except those who are wealthy or in the top income bracket, tithing (due to compulsion/pressure) on a regular basis would be a burden. This goes against the freedom that faith in Christ brings. For example, see:

    Galatians 5:13, “For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another”

    Galatians 5:1 So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.

    2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

    John 8:32 And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    John, it seems you are saying that your tithing makes you right with God. If so, you are believing a different or distorted gospel. There’s several warnings in the new testament about this. For example:

    Galatians 1:6-7 I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ. You are following a different way that pretends to be the Good News but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ.

    Colossians 2:10 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ. For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. So you are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

    Yes we are complete through our union with Christ!

    Psychology plays a part in people’s learning. It’s hard for people to accept that they have been taken captive/lied to. It is hard to accept that their pastor is either ignorant or telling them lies – which means they see him differently than before (which also means considering leaving their current church – never easy). It’s hard for people to change one’s opinion completely and admit they have been wrong. To be corrected involves having humility and integrity, but it is vital to stay open to the Holy Spirit’s guidance. This may include accepting hard truths about ourselves, others and our previous beliefs. In this case those who are thoroughly and logically explaining tithing (with biblical evidence) are promoting ‘freeing’ truths and the real gospel of Christ.

  18. John says:

    [ Galatians 1:6-7 I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ]

    AND

    [ Colossians 2:10 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ]

    Andrea, Colossians and Corinthians were gentile people and these gentiles were joined with the people of Israel in Jerusalem in Acts 15:1-20.

    what was the reason behind of this union with the jews?

    Paul sent them there to become Jewish! please look at the statement of Paul when he confronted Peter about mixing with other gentile people.

    [ “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?- Gal 2:14]

    did u see this Peter’s pretension that he was invoking the gentiles to follow the Jewish custom yet he himself does not act like a jew?

    it’s very plain that the church was not built for the gentiles!

    please, Andrea wake up!

  19. John says:

    [ Rick Warren admitted he was a member of the Council of Foreign Relations and Oxford Analytica ]

    it’s good thing Warren is not an ISIS

  20. John says:

    Acts 15 was about the gentile to be converted into jews and Paul wrote the Jews in Jerusalem not to treat them hard in seeking God.

    he made some guidelines of things that need to be abstained for gentile born who wished to join the jews.

    remember, the church of God was in full force at the time when Paul order them of conversion to Jews.

    what are these guidelines to be abstain ?

    1. idols
    2. sexual immorality
    3. meat of strangle animals
    4. blood

    From these guidelines he did not include the tithing law and ths sabbath.

    They joined the jewish rank in order to learn Moses law and the Lord’s tithing law.

    so where did these modern preachers get that the church doesn’t need to tithe anymore?

    where?

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